hoser

The epigraph for Ch 83 also supports the idea that the spren are coming because they sense a desolation.

I really like the theory. I want to understand the Recreance and all ideas may contribute to a solution. That said, it seems problematic for one reason I didn't see above. There are references to possession and mind control as tools of Odium in tWoK. It seems to be common knowledge in the mythology. It could be part of the reason, but I think there must be more, as it is not even a secret in modern Roshar. I think the Knights would have had a better understanding of what Odium was about than the modern mythology. In addition, the Knights, being invested, would seem to be least susceptible to that sort of influence. As we saw w/Syl, the spren can tell when the Knights start to go off and communicate w/them.

I just thought that it was because the Heralds come a year or two before the Desolation and help people prepare. In this case, even if "Taln" were functional, there wasn't significant time between his arrival and the Desolation. OTOH, if it isn't really Taln and Wit knows it, I am confused. Is there any confirmation for the Jezrien drooling theory, or does it still entirely rest on Nale's ambiguous statement in front of Lift? Given that the other Heralds don't seem to show signs of aging, I find the idea that a black and gray beard suggests that someone is Jezrien puzzling. If anything, a black and gray beard seems like it should be evidence that someone is not Jezrien. The Heralds might look like they cognitively expect to look, so it does seem possible, but it still doesn't seem like supporting evidence. I hereby renounce my claim to the self-assigned title of Thread Curator. You are doing a better job of it. The title is yours if you want it. OTOH, maybe it is subsumed into your current title.

Counterpart: a person or thing holding a position or performing a function that corresponds to that of another person or thing in another place. Collectively, I believe that the Unmade are the counterparts of the Heralds. No, there may not be exactly ten and they are not exact opposites of the Heralds. I believe they are designed to fit Odium's intent as the Heralds fit H+C's intent. During the desolation, they act for Odium as the Heralds once acted for H+C. They try to win the Desolation for Odium as the Heralds are supposed to try to win the Desolation for the other side. I do think that fits the definition of counterpart, but anybody who has a better word is welcome to offer it. Depending on the criteria under consideration, I believe that a given object can have multiple different counterparts.

{Speculation} I think the Unmade are Odium's counterparts of the Heralds. Some people (including me, but I don't want to take credit for plagiarized thoughts) think that humanity and the Heralds came with Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar from somewhere else (Tranquilline Halls). If so, the Unmade could be from that other place. The Unmade could then be beings that Odium invested and which gave up their bodies (hence the name). They would then be investiture with consciousness, which is essentially what spren are, but with a history of having been a creature. I do think they are what the Parshendi refer to as their gods. {/Speculation}

The Stone Shamanate is the government of the Valley of Truth and similarly incapable of doing wrong by their own laws. It doesn't seem to be stopping Nale .

It's been a while since I've looked at tWoK, so I might be totally wrong here. The Roshone I remember: used his influence to have Moash's grandparents thrown in a dungeon for the "crime" of competing with him in business would stop at very little to get the spheres from Kaladin's family is in a society that teaches that darkeyes aren't as important may have "forced" Laral to marry him so he could hang onto her money After having his life saved, chooses to resent the surgeon who couldn't save his son lives on a world where "Odium reigns" I think Roshone will do anything he can to get away with in order to get his hands on the spheres. If he can hurt Lirin and Hesina in the process: bonus! The town losing their surgeon seems like a minor consideration for him. If he gets a non-emergency condition, he can get treatment somewhere else, and nobody else really matters to him except maybe Laral.

It's complicated . IIRC, nobody but Shallan and her father knew that she had killed her mother. If Heleran didn't know that she was a budding Radiant, he would have had no reason to go after her. Wit seemed to be surprised at Shallan's evolution and Heleran had communicated with him about the family, so Heleran may not have known about Shallan's Radiance. If Heleran was with the Skybreakers, that would suggest that Shallan's mother did not communicate with them about Shallan's development. Could there be another group killing Radiants?

Not to disagree, but to suggest another possibility. Maybe they don't want the SoH to get "Taln." "His life belongs to another" sort of implies to me that they plan to kill him eventually. Keeping him alive for now could be about extracting information and kidnapping could certainly help with that. I think the Ghostbloods have already gotten to Urithiru in the person of Mraize. While possible (maybe even likely), I don't think it is a "safe assumption" that the Ghostbloods are trying to kidnap Amaram. When Heleran was killed Amaram commented in Kal's presence that Heleran had the tattoo. I can imagine the eldest son following the father into the Ghostbloods before rebelling and joining the Skybreakers. With the Skybreakers trying to avert a Desolation and the SoH trying to instigate one, his desire to kill Amaram makes sense. So maybe Heleran joined the Ghostbloods for a time before the Skybreakers.

done

In Chapter 89: I don't know how you test them without trying, but they do seem to have explicitly tested at least some of the other Oathgates in addition to reading Jasnah's notes.

Call me confused. Yes, the overly responsible Kaladin blames himself for having killed Syl. Yes, the insane Stormfather blames him for killing Syl. Yes, unaware of the consequences to Syl, Kaladin promised to help assassinate Elhokar. In the book I read: Syl becomes temporarily incapacitated by forcing stormlight through a weakened bond. If we want to describe her as dead, it is not like the death people experience. If dead, it is a self-sacrifice, done willingly and without resentment. Kaladin's conflicting promises weakened the bond, but even the case for killing Elhokar is somewhat defensible, making the description of Kaladin's motivation as "loved to hate", an exaggeration or oversimplification. I get not liking Kaladin because of what happened to Syl. I don't get "Kaladin killed Syl because he loved hate too much!?"

This makes sense to me. Beyond that, Kaladin comments that Syl only moves in ways that match her form. When she flies she is a ribbon of light or blowing leaves. In sword form, maybe she can only move as a sword would. Adolin can then only command his Shardblade to move as a sword would move if thrown.

I think Nale had a Regrowth fabrial to revive Szeth with. I don't know that the other fabrials did not survive. My questions are: Why did the Radiants pass on exactly the fabrials they did? What did they do with the others?

The frequency idea is interesting. The Parshendi hear the varying rhythms also. My own thoughts drift to Shallan's "living ideas" notion. Also the concept of the Radiant powers being chosen. Further, measurement can "lock" spren. Somehow it makes sense to me that the idea of a windrunner could have a symbol that is a glyph. Once Kaladin fits the idea closely enough, he projects the Windrunner symbol. I hope this makes sense. Stopping now.

Three points: Kaladin did not lash himself to Relis or his Shardplate. He lashed himself in that direction. An invested opponent could dodge and Kaladin would miss, unless he re-lashed himself. Relis being uninvested (therefor slower) and ignoring him, did not dodge, so lashing in the direction worked.

This can be found in RShara's Words of Brandon (compiled) x2 thread. A fabulous resource if you are into that sort of thing, which we obviously are.

Whatever. When I assume that one or the other is "much" more invested, then it becomes like one side is invested and the other side is not, effectively a foregone conclusion and not a very interesting discussion. He lashed himself in the direction of an uninvested person wearing Shardplate and ignoring him. I think an invested person (with faster reflexes!) in a one on one duel might have been able to get out of the way. The Radiants in Dalinar's visions don't seem to have this limitation, so it is presumably based on his using an Honorblade and would not apply to the typical Windrunner.

As mistborn are invested, I doubt you could lash them directly unless you had "much" more investiture than they did. For a fair comparison, I think you have to assume similar levels of investiture.

Brilliant and hilarious! On a boring note: to affect invested objects, one generally needs "much" more investiture. While Szeth is invested, I don't think Kaladin can just imagine the Shardblade inside him. I think he might be able to do that with people who are not infused, but maybe there is some limitation on Syl occupying the same space as another object. Jasnah's trick with the thieves sort of worked like that. Imagining a Shardweapon traveling at great speed seems like it might work. It seems OP though. A Knight could just have it scythe down an army in seconds. I would guess Brandon would have to find a way to limit it. Maybe they can only initiate an action when it is in contact with the Knight? OTOH, Shallan was able to program her illusions with complex sequences.

All good points! I really have more questions than answers. If I can say so without being offensive, I do have infinite faith in the ability of organized religious systems to encompass inconsistencies. I don't know how widespread the knowledge of the Honorblades is. The Honorblades seem like holy objects that could have special status. For example, they could be holy weapons needed to protect the Creators from the warriors. The Shamanate could learn kammar, except for a special few who trained with the holy hand grenadesHonorblades. This is all just wild speculation on my part. Szeth did believe that the Shamans would retrieve the weapon if he were killed. I can imagine a delegation of Honorblade weilding shamans being the means to accomplish this. How they would find out where it was? Apparently one of their fundamental truths is the lies of the Heralds: that they won the war and Heralds, Radiants, Voidbringers and Desolations are no more. So, I don't think they even have a plan for the return of the Radiants, which would mean the End of All Things. I can easily imagine other rationalizations that would allow them to maintain expertise with the Honorblades among the Shamanate while relegating those weilding normal weapons to low status.

I know nothing, but it seems to me that the Shamanate must be quite powerful. I imagine that the way to maintain warriors as the lowest caste is to have Stone Shamans ready to keep them in their place. Powerful, trained, violent Shamans, possibly weilding Honorblades would deal with any warriors who tried to improve their lot.

I'm just glad people don't overcorrect the accidental upvotes I've gotten. Wait, what was this thread about? I agree that this situation is rife with dramatic potential. I do have trouble understanding why any particular bridgeman would be prosecuted. I even have trouble understanding who would be interested in prosecuting anybody for his death. Just as Sadeas tried to discredit Dalinar before trying to kill him, Sadeas discredited himself before getting himself killed. His old allies have either jumped ship (Aladar) or been proven wrong by events. The Dalinar side probably want to declare a national holiday. By the pre-Dalinar alethi morality, murdering someone without being caught may be considered admirable. Anybody with a more honorable outlook will be glad of the result. I can easily imagine Adolin laughing it off without even denying it: "Well, if I didn't do it, whoever did do it deserves a medal. The world is a better place without him." Without any evidence, it is hard to see how a prosecution would work. It's not like forensics will match up his knife with the scrambled mess of Sadeas's brain. "His cuffs were missing afterward" is not very convincing evidence. If Brandon wants him found out, there will have been a witness that didn't show themselves.

IMO it's sort of opposite. According to his beliefs, if he follows the terms of his punishment, then his soul experiences torment in the (holy) stone. If he doesn't, he thinks his soul will be annihilated (quote from tWoK available upon request). In a sense, he is selfish, sacrificing countless lives to retain his post-death existence (according to a belief system that he arguably knows is wrong).

This is the biggest reason I can't take Szeth seriously as a character. I accept that he advances the story Brandon wants to tell. The inconsistencies I perceive undermine his story. He knew the Stone Shaman were wrong from the beginning. That is what they punished him for. He was so convinced that the Shamanate was wrong that he risked being judged Truthless. Then he accepts their authority. It makes no sense. If he accepted their authority, he would never have challenged them in the first place. He would have just convinced himself he was wrong to begin with. He knew that Kaladin was a proto-Radiant. He knows that Mr. T is using him to commit assassinations based on his Truthlessness, which he knows is false. He is a smart man. Why would he go to Mr. T, who would have every reason to lie to him, and accept his cock and bull story without any evidence? If he doubted his Truthlessness, he should check out Kaladin some more, or find out whether an Honorblade is indeed missing. His accepting Mr. T's lies without verifying them makes no sense. He knows that Mr. T will stop at nothing to get what he wants. Even the Parshendi can see that Kaladin doesn't have an Honorblade because he has no sword at all. Further, Kaladin claims to be a Windrunner. If Kaladin had a different Honorblade, Szeth knows that Kaladin would not be a Windrunner.