Amanuensis

I believe what we need to be looking for is religions that have changed significantly. We know ancient Trell and modern Trell are entirely different. As was previously stated, we also know that Austrism has changed significantly in the last 300 years, and guess what? So did Shu-Dereth, pre-Elantris. I think I am now behind the theory that Austere, Trell and Jaddeth have all been adopted by Bavadin and changed to fit her purposes. On that note, I believe Bavadin is not human. I doubt it's a power unique to her Shard, just that she's using the Investiture from her Shard to do more with her shapeshifting.

In case some of you haven't seen it, this thread was just posted containing new WoB by Brandon involving Bavadin's gender. In my opinion, this statement, combined with the comment Khriss makes in the Taldain Essay, pretty much confirms that Trell = Autonomy, and that the distinct shift in the ancient belief and the new one was just Bavadin taking over the persona and altering it to fit her schemes.

Mental gymnastics are definitely required. But if we assume that the pancakes match the ten Heralds, I can't really think of a logical reason for any other of the males to be missing one. We know it's not Jezrien because he's Yaezir. We know it's not Nale because he's the one talking about him. That leaves Kalak, Ishar and Taln. Although a significant amount of time has passed between the WoK Prologue and now, I doubt Kalak has a reputation among the Heralds of bringing with him dire consequences. He's the Herald who drools now, though, isn't he? So maybe his pancake is missing because his "head" isn't "all there." Ishar is a distinct possibility, now that I think about it, since there's some good reasons to believe he's doing something sinister, although I find it odd that Nale would actively make that implication about the man who seems to be guiding his work. Plus, like Jezrien and Yaezir are very similar sounding, Ishar and Tashi bare some significant resemblance. The question then would be why is his pancake missing? Hm. So I just looked back at the quote where the scribes talk about the tenth pancake, and this is what it says. Emphasis mine. This is why Taln was my immediate thought. This statement pretty heavily implies Tashi is dead (or, in Taln's case, gone). Which matches my interpretation of Nale's words, as oblique as it is. Also, this has got me really looking forward to a scene where Taln and Nale meet up again.

Hm. I actually chalk that up to Nale not being aware that Taln has returned. I believe that he's saying that because if "Tashi" did appear, it would mean a Desolation would be beginning, which we know he doesn't believe. Plus I'm pretty confident Tashikk already calls Jezrien Yaezer.

I think I'm leaning towards Ym (and Stump) being proto-Truthwatcher(s), and it's mostly because of this statement: Emphasis mine. The primary definition of the word consider is "think carefully about (something), typically before making a decision." Since Ym was in the bonding stage, that implies action on the part of the cultivationspren. Instead would mean that they can only bond one or the other. I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure both Ym and Lift had a Spren at the same time. While Ym could have certainly become an Edgedancer with the proper guidance, I don't think what we know of him and what we know of the Edgedancers align quite that well, especially compared to Lift, and I can see more similarities between Ym and Stump than I can with Lift. Also, likely that bit about the light growing like vines doesn't really sound like cultivationspren to me, I just think it's a result of the spren being closer to Cultivation than Honor.

To be fair, there wasn't anything STINK had specifically done that made me think he was evil, other than the fact that he was so against Alv's attempt to put the lynch in the hands of fate. Stink has a habit of giving up on games relatively early. There's at least two games where he's voted to lynch himself, and another where he literally committed suicide for no explained reason. His response to Alv was mainly what tipped me off, and combined with the events of that same day, I was convinced that one of the players who voted for JUQ was a teammate. Considering that Mage and Ecth were the only ones who voted on JUQ after STINK had accrued a ton of votes, it was most likely one of them. That being said, both Mage and Ecth voted on STINK with me last turn. Some players might consider them cleared but I personally do not. Between the two, I am more suspicious of Mage. Given how much later in the turn Mage voted on STINK (the same can be applied to Nyali), I believe that STINK realized he was going to die, and he asked his team to help kill him in an attempt to gain some more trust. This makes a lot of sense for Mage in particular since he was a player I had already had said we should lynch this turn if STINK turned out to be a Traitor. Thing is, I am willing to give them a benefit of the doubt for now, because this previous turn has made me more certain of your guilt, Jondesu. It's still possible Mage is evil with you, but as you stated, your support of STINK does look suspicious. You're also on my radar, polking. Earlier in the game I had thought favorably of you because you had made a couple statements that were extremely close to my same thoughts, but to quote the almighty GM, "Eliminator kills will happen before the lynch." What you're suggesting is impossible. There are only three explanations for why there was no kill last cycle: lack of coordination, inactivity, or deliberate misdirection. The first is certainly possible, depending on who STINK's teammates are. The second is just as likely, and since your last post this game was on cycle 2, I wouldn't be surprised if you had a part in either. The third I personally doubt given the fact that a teammate of theirs was just lynched and missing the opportunity to kill a villager in retaliation would generally be considered silly. Anyway, since both Nyali and Mage are voting for Jondesu, if it turns out he is an elim too, than it'll pretty much disprove my busing theory, as either one of them pushing to kill a second ally in a row is pretty unreasonable, especially since there's quite a few other options for the lynch right now, imo. On the subject of Wonko, I don't think he's one of STINK's teammates, though it is a possibility. The reason I don't think he is a Traitor as well is because it looks like he was presented as an alternative to STINK, hence why votes began to shift towards him. I find it more likely that STINK was hoping to save himself by lynching another villager, but this does conflict a bit with my Mage-or-Nyali-bus-STINK theory, since they both had the opportunity to vote for Wonko instead. Sure, it could have been distancing, but I don't find that very likely, considering the fact that he was literally the only option STINK had of saving himself. (3) Jondesu: Nyali, Magestar, Amanuensis, (1) Nyali: Doctor12, (1) Wonko the Sane: Jondesu,

The purpose of the block post was to get all my thoughts out as soon as possible, as I haven't been able to participate the last two turns, and I find it incredibly likely I'm going to die tonight anyway, given who the elims have target so far (R&R players with "scary" reps). I will admit that I'm tunneling on Stink a bit. Though JUQ and DA's votes on Stink had no merit, the fact of the matter is that 62.5% of the total player base voted on either JUQ or STINK last turn, and that 2 of the four people who voted for STINK are now dead and revealed village. I guarantee at least 1 of those remaining 8 players is an elim, and based of percentages alone, it's more likely that it was someone who voted for JUQ than STINK. Of those who voted for JUQ, I'm more suspicious of you than the rest, simply because you're essentially the reason why STINK was saved to begin with, and your resistance to follow Alv's advice of letting luck decide (a player we now also know is a villager). So the way I see it, killing STINK can either clear most of the players who voted for him, if not all, or cast suspicion on them after. EDIT: In a game where the lynch is the village's only real tool, I'd rather use it to gain the most information possible than waste it. Given I accept the possibility that I'm tunneling, I do think I have some valid logical reasons for suspecting STINK based off what's occurred so far, at least more so compared to other players. That being said, I would be willing to retract my vote in one of the other offending votes; I.E. You, Doc, and Jond, in that order. I personally think Polking is a villager since him and I had very similar reactions, and my opinion of Ecth is close-to-neutral, as of right now.

Considering how big a deal Ascendancy is, I severely doubt that if a change of Vessels did occur, the power would transfer to a prominent character in White Sand. Given there haven't been many females introduced yet, we might not have to look very far. White Sand Vol 1 Spoilers Within:

Hello all. It doesn’t seem Orlok’s mentioned it publicly, so I feel it necessary to fill you in on why I’ve stepped in to replace him. He’s been called for an interview in Oxford, which I personally think is incredible, as I’ve always dreamed of studying there, if not visiting it, at the very least. So I’d like to publicly wish you the best of luck, Orlok, and request that if the time permits, you take a couple pictures for me, particularly of the Codrington Library and the Radcliffe Camera. Overall I’d just love to see anything from the campus, especially since it’s winter! Anyway, onto the game at hand. Knowing that Hael was going to implement pinch-hitters for the first few cycles, I took the liberty of taking some notes before joining. Since the lynch and the elim kill are the most significant identifiers in this game, that’s where most of my focus has been, so first I will provide you all my thoughts on the first day’s events. In regards to the lynch, attention was initially drawn to Elbereth via her interactions with Jondesu. I should begin this with the disclaimer that confirmed good is not confirmed right, however, I will point out now that Jond has been connected to more situations than most, now. Take Lopen’s first comment on the matter. He expresses paranoia about El and Jond being Traitors together, but that it’s unlikely due to his paranoia being more often wrong than right. After that, the conflict essentially resolves itself, and things begin moving on. Orlok says he agrees with El that Jond “appears to be setting up a very passive position for himself,” although he couldn’t say what that might have meant. Next Stink chimes in to say that El is at the top of his suspicion list, but doesn’t have the time to say why. For the next few posts the topic is ignored, until Wonko then votes on Doc while asking him what his opinions of El are, given he feels she’s being “distinctly more aggressive than usual.” Both of these catch my attention because neither party gets directly involved, but seem to be attempting to redirect the discussion back towards El as soon as it starts drifting away from her. It’s at that point that Nyali lays the first vote on El, for the reasoning that she has the impression El is acting more excited than usual. When I read this from the spec doc I remember thinking immediately “What is she on about?” because I honestly didn’t see it. I also found it funny (but not in the haha sorta way) that she follows it up with “I know it’s a super weak argument” and attempts to emphasize that D1 lynches are a stab in the dark. In retrospect, I get the feeling that Nyali knew El was innocent, and this was her way of giving herself an excuse for later, when El was inevitably revealed a villager. Doc then responds to Wonko and says that from his perspective El is usually aggressive when she has solid suspicions, which are less likely to form that early in the first day. Overall he agrees that she isn’t seeming herself. Lopen, who we soon after learn is innocent, is the next person to discuss and vote for El, saying that he’s “curious to see if Nyali, Stink and Wonko are right about her.” Which they weren’t, as we now know. Next comment on El comes from Mage who says he’s personally more suspicious of El than Doc, not that he ends up voting for her, either. A few posts later Polking says he’s not familiar with El’s playstyle, but vouches that nothing she’s done so far seems suspicious (a comment that I agreed with at the time, and was a bit upset more people didn’t vouch for her, let alone herself). Soon after Jond makes a post saying he doesn’t see a bandwagon forming on El but sees the potential, not that he’s convinced that she’s evil. Since Jond is one of my top suspects for reasons I will explain soon, this makes me think that either an ally has already taken a stance against El if not voted for her anyway, and he’s trying to separate himself from the situation so they don’t get dragged down together. Stink finally explains the reason why he thought El was suspicious, which basically accuses her of backtracking a statement she made to make herself look better (debatable, but I didn’t read into it like that). He also openly refuses to vote on her because “he doesn’t want to add to El being up for the lynch.” Another statement that made me think “lolwat?”, and like with Nyali, not in a haha sorta way. Then JUQ, who we now know is village, votes on El for no other reason than “to make things interesting,” which Polking soon points out as weird, and Jond then responds to with a vote on JUQ. Shortly after (and shortly before the cycle ends), Doc places a finishing vote on El, pointing out the information gain, while simultaneously mentioning how no one has really made an effort to defend her, let alone herself. Now, I can’t remember what game it was, but I know Sart did this exact same thing recently in an attempt to save his teammate (mentioning the fact that no one has attempted to defend them), but unlike Doc, he cast his vote for someone else. I’ve noticed this is a relatively common trend, or at least, that statements about situations similar to this happen now and then. I won’t attempt to say it’s usually the evil people who make it, because I don’t have that data and am much to lazy to gather it, but I want to make it clear I find this statement noteworthy, and that it reminds me of Nyali’s attempt to lessen any future blame, once the results are in. So, non-confirmed villagers who I consider responsible for this death are Stink, Wonko, Nyali and Doc. Lopen was also on this list, but as we all know, the eliminators murdered him that night. I find that pretty interesting, because with such a small list of people who voted on El, it wouldn’t have been difficult for the elims to turn suspicion onto one of the players who voted for, or perhaps just spoke out, against her. The fact that they took the risk in narrowing that pool even further suggests to me that Lopen himself was onto something. On the first cycle, Lopen had only posted three times. The first thing he posted was a vote on Polking and a list of players who he had seen online since Hael posted the thread but had yet to say anything related to the game itself (Polking, Assassin in Burgundy, Doctor, Daniyah, Nyali, Jondesu, Elbereth, and Alvron). His second post was him taking the stance that El wasn’t being too aggressive against Jond, while simultaneously wondering if they were both evil together. I’m not sure if Lopen had the same thought when he typed this, but I personally feel that Jond was being especially defensive in regards to El’s “aggressions.” In his third post he ends up voting for El for the reason I mentioned earlier: he wanted to see if Nyali, Stink and Wonko were right. I, personally, am reading into this a bit further, in that he wanted to see if they were wrong, too, because if they were, we might have found an elim. I should probably also note he mentioned Polking in each post, which could be a factor, but I am of the opinion that Lopen was killed because he was 1) paying more attention than most players, 2) repeatedly trying to get villagers involved, and 3) because he mentioned something close enough to the truth that if allowed to comment more on it, might end up revealing one of them. As a result, my attention is now focused on Jondesu, Nyali, Stink and Wonko. I also have Doc relatively high on my suspicions list, despite Lopen never have really mentioned him. Mage also to a lesser extent, for similarly non-commital reasons as Stink and sorta Wonko. For reference, here’s the final tally from that day. Elbereth(4): Nyali, Lopen, JUQ, Doctor Magestar(1): Alvron STINK(1): Ecthelion Stick(1): Daniyah JUQ(1): Jondesu Less than an hour after the write up, Doc has a roleplay written in which he reacts to El’s death and follows up with a vote on Juq, who we now know is innocent. I will go ahead and point out now that Doc is the only player to participate in both lynches, which somewhat makes me suspicious of him, but ironically less so than Jond, Stink or Mage, since all three of them refused to participate in the El lynch, despite their less-than-favorably interactions with her. A little more than an hour later, both Polking and Jond vote for JUQ as well, basically for no other reason than the odd circumstances surrounding his vote on El (which I will agree was odd). Not long after, both Stink and Wonko make posts commenting on the sudden bandwagon, to which Mage responds with a vote on Jond, though his reasoning is weak and is supplemented with an excuse; specifically, “that could be put down to him being a ‘first time villager’.” Dani comments that JUQ probably would not have behaved as he did if he was an elim, which I sort of agree, given I worked with him in the Discworld LG not too long ago. He wasn’t particularly active in doc, but at least in the thread, he didn’t really act without consulting us first. Stink challenges Mage’s comment about how being new is not a valid excuse. Considering I am suspicious of both players, I think this may have been an attempt by Stink to distance himself from Mage. Mage responds that he can see “correlations between how he’s acting now and how he acted in the past,” hence his vote. When asked by Mage what Stink’s thoughts are on Jond, he doesn’t really comment, instead deflecting the question with “my suspicions turned out wrong” and “I haven’t really had time to look at anyone’s posts in detail” yet. Dani votes for Stink for reasons I thought myself, which has put her on my tentative trust list, along with probably polking, for similar reasons (in addition to Nyali’s consistent votes on him). Stink retaliates with a vote on Dani, and while I agree with his response that being suspicious of a player does not mean you automatically want them dead, I don’t get that tone from his previous posts regarding El at all. Soon thereafter Nyali apologizes for her part in lynching El. Could be genuine, could be her trying to capitalize on her set up from her last post. Not entirely sure which it is, but it’s one of my current theories. Skipping some stuff that’s less relevant, because this post is already ridiculously long… Dani, Alvron, JUQ and DA (two of which are confirmed good, as of this cycle) vote for Stink one after another, which is soonafter met with resistance by Mage voting for JUQ. This is a big part of the reason why I think both Stink and Mage are evil. Not only did they both non-committally cast suspicion on El the previous cycle, but as soon as Stink Ascends in votes, Mage attempts to come to the rescue with a tie. This allows Stink himself to change his vote so that he can survive another round. Since it happened, I’ll also mention that Ecth voted for JUQ right after, but since at this point I’m convinced that Stink is a Traitor, I doubt a teammate would do that unnecessarily. Elims tend to be way too paranoid about implicating themselves than they are a teammate dying at this stage. Now, Alv makes a couple big posts about why he did what he did with Stink. While it turns out he did not have any genuine reason for suspecting him, it’s just about a guarantee that of those 10 votes, at least one, if not two, elims were involved, simply because this is a 16 man game. Since villagers have no way to privately coordinate this game, I’ve got a strong feeling that the sudden shift in votes away from Stink back to JUQ was the result of him being an elim, rather than the initial stack of votes on JUQ being orchestrated by him (though I still haven’t ruled out that happening as well). As it stands, Stink is the player with the most connections right now, and thus his death will be the most beneficial for establishing future leads, given the nature of this game. If I’m right about him, I would suggest that Mage be looked at next. I won’t bother making predictions about him or anyone else if I’m right now, but if Stink is a traitor, I think Mage definitely has to be as well, and that Dani is as good as cleared. As for DA (now Clanky) I’m less sure, since like JUQ, I played on a team with him recently, and he did not hesitate to actively work against his win con for no other reason than to keep up his chaotic reputation, and therefore I will not even bother reading into his actions. (2) STINK: Daniyah, Amanuensis, (1) Assassin in Burgundy: Wonko the Sane, (1) Daniyah: STINK, (1) polkinghornbd: Nyali,

No, you're not crazy. Knowing Brandon, I doubt this is just a coincidence. Especially since the only time we've seen the game before was when Vasher was playing it, and Kaladin didn't seem to recognize it. I'm not sure if it means the Stump herself is from Nalthis, but it very well could be. Nice catch.

If I had to guess, Teshi is Taln, since he was the one Herald who died in the last Desolation.

Insert crazy theory that Ais Ascends to Autonomy.

Could edit the first one to ask "Is there an interesting reason why Ati and Edgli's names are so similar?" which if he just said yes to, without specifics, could spark a lot of interesting discussion... But yeah, I'm leaning towards the third as well, even if it doesn't really provide much information. A potential modification could be "Can we find every metal we see on Scadrial in our own world (Earth)?"? More likely to be PAFO'd, but also more informative. Unless we've already got an answer to whether or not Atium and Lerasium are based on real metals.

I'm about to order it, and since I try to make it so every personalization I get relates to the particular narrative in some way, these are what I'm considering asking: Are Ati and Edgli siblings, or at least from the same Yolish culture? Are any of the original Vessels biologically related, or romantically involved? (Should I split this question and save the other half for later, or would anyone be willing to ask the other half themselves?) Can we find the metal Paalm uses to hide from Harmony on Earth?

I actually ship Jasnalla. I imagine that (BoM Spoilers) Khriss approaches Jasnah similarly to how she did Wax in New Seran and the two inevitably fall in love as Jasnah joins Khriss on her adventures across the Cosmere to discover the truth about everything. Both seem very sapiosexual to me, and it isn't a stretch at all for a situation like that to develop.

I'll spectate as well.

I'll take a link to the spec doc as well.

Sorry about that, Mage. If you read my doc, you'll see where I was about to change my order off you because I felt bad, but missed the turnover by like 5 minutes.

Sorry for taking so long getting this written up, folks. Between NaNoWriMo and APEC, I haven't had much time, but since I've decided to go on an indefinite hiatus, I figured I should get this done now. So, without further ado, GM thoughts. 1) Forsworn PM Chain: In the very beginning of the game, I created 5 PMs for the Forsworn, which was an accident on my part. Originally, my intention was to give each of them the name of another Forsworn and make them spend Merit to contact them, for two reasons. The first, to prevent the Rath from immediately knowing the names of two Forsworn to betray. The second, to encourage the other Forsworn to be more careful. While I can't say for sure that this would have prevented the fastidiousness of Len's betrayal, it was at least something I could have done to maybe nudge things that way. For those who might not be aware, the Forsworn did not hesitate to pass the names and abilities of their allies around, nor did it take long for them to create a group PM, or for Len, the Forsworn Rath, to betray them all (by the way, here's the link to a doc containing their conversations; thank you El for transcribing it). This put me in a position I would have rather not be in as a GM. Really I had two options, at this point: to allow things to unfold naturally, which would very likely have ended with the Forsworn losing without either side every having a chance to have fun; or to interfere by nerfing the Raths, as a warning. Specifically, I made it impossible for a Rath to be protected by Telemanus, as well as change their immediate win condition to survive on the winning team, rather than make surviving only a priority after conversion. Which brings me to my second subject of discussion. 2) Balancing the Raths, the Forsworn and Neutrals: If I could do it again, I think I would make it so the Rath changes sides whenever an attempt on their life is made, since the primary goal of the character is to preserve his own life and position in the Society. The issue with this, however, is it completely defeats the reason why I wanted to have a Rath role in the first place; so that the eliminators would hoard their information more. As an alternative, if I, or someone else, was to rerun this game or another game with a similar mechanic, I would suggest putting more emphasis on it than I did. This is two games in a row that a betrayal mechanic led in the near destruction of the eliminator team. While it could be inherent that such a role is broken in general, I personally would love to see it balanced appropriately. Unfortunately for the village, I balanced the eliminators according to the idea that eliminator communication would be imperfect, giving the Forsworn more players and power than they would have otherwise. In regards to the neutral roles, I think both of those were done well. One thing I considered was giving Lopen the actual names of his targets, which would have made his original win condition a bit more achievable, in retrospect. If I were to do it again, I would probably implement that rather than a general "kill each person with this role." I personally was very fond of Audromedus as it allowed the game to remain relatively balanced without me having to interfere directly, which Bard has already commented on. 3) Merit and the Bellonas: After C3 I realized one huge mistake I made with the Merit and the Bellonas: I balanced it according to the level of activity I wanted, not the level of activity I should have expected. If I could do it again, I would make it so the maximum amount of Merit than could be earned a turn would be 10, and that instead of having an increased cap, the Bellonas would just straight up receive double Merit, which is a perk I gave Burnt halfway through the game, since she was basically a vanilla role at that point, which was never the intent. On this, I would have done the same thing for Bugsy, if he lived long enough for me to realize the problem. I would probably also remove the negative Merit mechanic for inactivity, since there were a couple instances of villagers coming back to the game with little-to-no Merit, which would have helped them significantly compared to the consistently active eliminators. That and the fact that you don't earn Merit while other players do is good punishment enough. I think that just about covers everything major. If anyone has any further questions or comments to make, I would recommend you do so soon; I imagine the mods will want to combine this with the original thread in the next few days, now that I've finished this. I might as well finish this with an official declaration, since I haven't said so elsewhere. I will not be playing any more games. Maybe in a few months or years I'll feel comfortable enough to play the occasional one, but it's simply better, for me and the community, that I don't. You will still find me on Shard and Discord, but as some may have noticed lately, I will be significantly less active than usual. Note that this does not include GMing. I will very likely still run the occasional game, such as the Medallion LG (BoM inspired) and the Institute LG (Red Rising), but that'll be the most involved I get. Thanks for everything, everyone. It's been fun.

I'll be resigning. Have fun, everyone.

Keeping the turns at 48 hours?

@Elbereth, @Burnt Spaghetti and @Aonar Faileas, any chance you would care to help kill Chaos?

That's fine with me, Bard

Just for some context on my perspective, I never believed everyone would agree to or follow through with the plan, which renders it obsolete. My intent with suggesting it was to spark discussion and allow people who might not say much otherwise to add their thoughts. For those concerned that such a plan would encourage aggressive competition or transform the game into something more mechanical than fun / interactive, I personally would not allow such a thing to occur, and believe others would advocate the same. The core points of mine were 1: encourage activity by punishing those not participating in the game (no one will be punished for having a conflicting opinion with the plan. All this part is creating our own inactivity filter, since there isn't one in the game already) 2: encourage activity (while also building relations between players) by making sure everyone has two others to discuss things with while also 3: maintaining a healthily progressive game, particular in the long term. For those of you concerned with how it might affect the eliminators, it doesn't actually have any specific negative impact on the Traitors, and I would even go so far as to say it helps them in some ways. Not only does it pretty much ensure villagers will die in the beginning, as an eliminator is more likely to be active than not, and it's less likely that Wyrm will convert a player who isn't even coming onto the forums than one who is, but it also guarantees eliminators get information for their team, as well as gives them plenty of opportunities so sow mistrust and chaos, such as by targeting specific players to implicate others. Additionally, it also drives into their head that they need to be more careful with what they say and do, which in turn prevents them from slipping up when they might otherwise, and even makes things slightly more challenging / interesting. In the end, its still the same game, only slightly more organized than it would be before, and in my opinion, more fun because everyone is involved / no one is left out.

Well, Nyali is voting for him because they are a pair of roles that compete with one another for victory. Aonar is voting for himself he doesn't believe he can win after being stolen from, though I have a theory that he might be a Monarchist himself. Lynching him is pretty pointless, however. I will retract my vote from Elbereth in favor of Chaos, though. According to my sources, she is the Luggage (and also inactive).