Amanuensis

Hm. Interesting. Could I ask you to show me your math on that? Physics fascinates me

If you could find that WoB on the Shard's being part of Adonalsium's personality, I would be very grateful, as that's something I haven't seen before. As with Ati, I mentioned that in my little schpeel about Ruin. Kind people are perfectly capable of unkind emotions, or committing unkind acts. Especially when their life is flipped upside down. In this scenario, I suggest that Ati was always a kind man, but that something extremely important to him was taken by the fainlife, which prompted him to dedicate his life to exterminating it. At some point he discovered that the only way to destroy the fainlife for good was to kill Adonalsium and take his power, and maybe even was recruited by Rayse, who had gone through a very similar situation, but just had different goals (as I stated, he blamed god for the death of his loved one). To use examples from other stories that you might be familiar with, is Eren Yaeger from Attack on Titan a bad person because he wants to destroy all the Titans? What about Yuichiro from Seraph of the End and his life goal to kill all the Vampires that enslaved mankind? I'm proposing that Ati was a good person with good desires (to destroy the fainlife before they destroy his entire world), which led him down an debatably evil path that ended with him killing god, and the focus of the power he got was a reflection of that intent. As for Rayse, I didn't really comment on why he's running around killing Shards. But the fact of the matter is, we know from Arcanum Unbounded that Rayse killed Ambition shortly after the Shattering. Since we know Shards take a long time to twist a Vessel, I suspect he was prepared to betray his fellow allies from the start. To perhaps better explain how I think things went down, we know that Adonalsium's power split up between the Vessels, and each took the form of an Intent, as well as the fact that things could have led to different Intents being made. This suggests that they are not pieces of Adonalsium's personality. I think that the most powerful desire that each of the Vessels had fore killing Adonalsium attracted the Investiture to them, fusing with these intents to create the Shards in a similar manor to how Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow fused with the Stormfather. To quote the coppermind again, this time the article for "intent": My theory is that the intent of each Shard is also the primary purpose or motivation that each particular Vessel helped kill Adonalsium. @VirtuousTraveller, In regards to fainlife, I believe it is mentioned in the Liars of Partinel chapters, which are online and, as far as I'm aware, fair game for discussion. I would say especially so now that it's been mentioned in AU.

Hmm. Now that I think about it, this is very likely the case. From WoR and Edgedancer we learn that Hoid was once swallowed by a greatshell for the better part of a year. That sounds pretty dang unlucky to me. And now that I think about it, what sort of person could survive constantly filling a fortunemind? Hm, I dunno. Someone who's next impossible to kill? I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot more insane scenarios like this occurring with him miraculously surviving. I also am wondering if the reason why he poses as a beggar so often is entirely a choice, or because he fills his fortunemind to the point where he ends up poor and homeless, until he eventually needs to tap it to get him to where he needs to be.

Hello all. I've been thinking about this theory for a long time, although a few recent comments have made me decide to actually write it up. To keep things short, I'm going to quote the Coppermind article for Adonalsium and link the relevant WoBs, that way I don't have to waste any time (mine or yours) regurgitating this information. While I can't say I know everything about Yolen, I have a general understanding that the world was dying to something known as fainlife. According to Yolish lore, it is some kind of malevolent disease(?) released from the corpses of Gods that began to gradually eat away at the world. My first thought here is, what is Adonalsium doing? Why hasn't he fought it off or tried to save Yolen? I can't answer this exactly. I can theorize the entity we know as Adonalsium did not originally hold that power, and that like the Shards, it shaped him into being unable to act in any meaningful way. We already see an example of 2 conflicting Intents forcing a Vessel from acting much (Harmony), so it's possible having 16 different Intents, possibly in 8 conflicting pairs, would have the same affect on Him. On that note, I find it interesting that Frost the Dragon has a non-intervention policy. I suspect that this might be a result of a particularly strict religion that worships Adonalsium directly, and adheres to the same concept that it is their duty to let destiny run its course. Either way, this isn't the main subject I want to discuss. Back to my theory, it seems clear that the 16 original Vessels of the Shards were a group of people from across Yolen who, each for their own reasons, wanted to stop the fainlife, and that the only way they could accomplish it was by killing Adonalsium and taking the power for himself. And thus I believe that the "force that determined which way it shattered" was each Vessel's Intent in committing deicide. To emphasize my theory, let's look at the names of the Shards we know, and connect those to reasons why someone might commit deicide or want to become a god. Autonomy: Based on what we know of Bavadin, she really doesn't like people who use magic. The Kertzians on Taldain have a deep hatred for Sand Masters, and she appears to be interfering with other worlds and encouraging their inhabitants to hate those with magic, if not the Shards themselves. For example, I believe that Bavadin has hijacked Idrian Austrism, hence their recent (300 years) opposition towards Awakening and Returned. I suspect she affected Shu-Dereth in a similar way, which is the driving factor in why wants to conquer the world, and perhaps why the Dakhor Monks want to slaughter the Elantrians as well. There's also the business with Trell on Scadrial. Ultimately I think Bavadin's reason for helping Shatter Adonalsium was because she wanted to have a Cosmere autonomous from Gods, which is somewhat ironic, since she's apparently going around pretending to be them. Cultivation: We really don't know much about this Shard or Vessel, sadly, but for now I can come up with an easy answer. I suspect the original holder of Cultivation was an older woman and a mother at that. She wanted to create a stable Cosmere with her kids could grow old and live happy and comfortably. Likely this desire applied to more than just her immediate family, but all others too. I also wouldn't be surprised if she was an avid gardener, or had an love for nature. Now that I think about it, I think Shinovar being where she resides / the location of her shardpool makes a lot of sense, as it's the only place on Roshar that resembles earth (Yolen). Devotion: This ones a bit tricky, since we don't know much about Aona, either, and one would think that with the religious connotations of the word, it's hard to imagine how someone is being devoted by killing their god. Perhaps I could see that, if a previous statement about Adonalsium not being the original holder of that power, that it's a tradition of sorts for the power to be passed on, and that Aona belongs to this culture. A bit of a stretch, but the most interesting theory I can come up with. It's possible she's just reaaally devoted to Yolen, or whatever country she comes from on it, to the point that she'd kill god to save it. Not as fun an answer, though. Dominion: Skai's reason is a bit easier to figure out, if Fjordell is anything to go off of! He just wanted to dominate the Cosmere! I suspect this isn't entirely the case. Maybe he just believed that mortals should be in control of their destiny, rather than the gods (or in this case, a god). Once again, this answers a bit generic and hard to say for certain since we don't know much about Skai. I personally got a feeling he's not that bad of a guy. Endowment: Considering how magic works on Nalthis, if this theory is correct than Edgli's main reason for committing deicide would be her wanting every person to have a little bit of god's power, rather than see it all be held by a single person. Honor: Tanavast's purpose for commiting deicide being "honorable" is another one of the tougher connections for me to establish. Considering all the business with oaths, maybe he was some kind of knight that strictly abided by some kind of code that compelled him to take part in destroying Adonalsium. Like Dominion, the Honor shard makes me question this theory, although either way, it's a fun thought experiment. Odium: Easy enough, considering what we know about Rayse. He hated Adonalsium. Likely for some completely tragic reason. Maybe he grew up in a very religious culture which was one of the first to be consumed by the fainlife, and ever since, he blamed Adonalsium in particular for failing to intervene. Considering that Hoid describes him as craft, I wouldn't even be surprised if he was the one who gathered this team from the start. Preservation: Another easy one... Leras wanted to preserve the world. He liked it the way things were and didn't want anything to change. The way I just worded it makes me think he might have been one of the younger vessels, which seems to contradict how wise he seems during his appearances, but on that matter, a lot of time has passed since the Shattering. Ruin: We know that Ati wasn't a bad guy, according to Hoid (I think? Or was it WoB?), and that Ruin had corrupted him over time. I know plenty of good people who have reasonable prejudices. It's possible that he came from similar origins as Rayse, in that his homeland was consumed by the fainlife, but instead of hating god for not saving them, he just wanted to destroy the source of his pain once and for all. Ambition: Here we are at the shard we've most recently learned the name of, and also know next-to-nothing about. With a name like Ambition, it isn't hard to guess what the Vessel's reason for committing deicide would be. I suspect he wanted power, perhaps for no other reason than to have it, and this may have been a large factor in why he was the first Shard that Odium attempted to Splinter. And now for the culminating statement! We know that Hoid was at the Shattering. We also know that Hoid is not a Shard(6). I believe the reason why Hoid didn't receive a Shard is because he didn't want Adonalsium to die. I believe that Hoid was present at the Shattering because he was trying to stop it. Furthermore, I believe it's possible that Hoid's ultimate Cosmeric goal has something to do with reforging the Shards into a new Adonalsium (likely not within himself, since I doubt he wants to be a God, or believes himself capable of being a good one). Now that all my thoughts on the matter are out there, I'll go ahead and point out that I don't really have much evidence to support this. However, I would really like to ask Brandon a question like "if every original Vessels was at the Shattering, except another person was there with them other than Leras, would the other people responsible for the Shattering receive the same exact Shards while Leras replacement would take Preservation, or would he get a different Shard entirely?" It would most certainly reveal an RAFO, but I do wonder what Brandon's reaction to such a question would be (a sly smile, a laugh, etc). The idea itself is pretty wild. But I would love it if people commented with any contextual evidence that might prove or disprove it, for discussion's sake. Also, feel free to come up with other motivations for killing Adonalsium that align with these Shard's Intents.

Certainly possible, but I don't think this is the case. If them taking the power wasn't planned, what could possibly be their motivation to commit deicide?

I've read Edgedancer, and there was no Windrunner in it, so no. I have absolutely no idea where that's coming from, actually.

People deny reality all the time, though, particularly when their own sanity is on the line just look at Shallan. Plus, he might feel incredibly guilty for abandoning Taln in an attempt to stop the cycle of Desolations, since it's lately being proven to have only have made things worse. Additionally, he could honestly believe that the Radiants resurfacing are what allowed the Everstorm to begin. I mean, let's look at the chain of events. Gavilar begins receiving visions from the Stormfather, becoming a proto-Bondsmith, like Dalinar is now. Gavilar is assassinated by the Parshendi for attempting to restore their "gods"(?), sparking the War of Reckoning. The War of Reckoning forces the Parshendi into a corner, forcing Eshonai to bond a Stormspren. Eshonai and many other Parshendi are now influenced by Odium, and via him, summon the Everstorm, bringing the Last Desolation. So in other words, the Last Desolation wouldn't have began when it did if it weren't for proto-Radiants, and thus Ishar was technically right. He could have just refused to accept he failed, like Nale.

Sel also makes sense, given this quote from its essay: Now I'm no expert on physics, but I'm pretty sure this is the highest gravity on a planet we've seen so far, and I'm relatively certain that the greater gravity is on a planet, the more dense its natural materials are. On top of what Blightsong just brought up (about Sel's investiture being condensed in the Cognitive Realm), it makes quite a lot of sense.

Ah, right. Hm. I suppose Lift immediately healing him and Szeth being revived much later by a fabrial could be a factor. But that is a good point I hadn't thought of. Ah, true. That being said, the afterimage is just sort of there. It's not really doing anything magical yet. It could be an extension of Szeth that, when he's invested, he's capable of controlling. Either way, I think it's connected to Nightblood. It doesn't really make sense for it to be Nightblood itself, though, because why would he take the shape of the man wielding him? That's actually an interesting thought. I wonder... could it be an Unmade we don't know about? It kinda fits their MO.

Since I don't feel like creating a topic for this, I just wanted to bring something up, since I don't think anyone has mentioned it before. Insert quote from Edgedancer Emphasis mine. Considering this is a Herald talking about it, I am now extremely confident that the Voidbringers are just another term for Voidspren, as opposed to the collective name for the things they possess (nature, greatshells, parshendi) which I have seen some people theorize. This heavily implies that the Voidbringers themselves are the self-aware Splinters that inhabit Braize, as mentioned in the Rosharian Essay, here: I, however, will not hold back on theorizing. You all know those ten symbols that aren't the symbols for the Knights Radiants, which some people have speculated are for their Voidbinding equivalent? I believe those are the symbols for the Unmade, which are Odium's versions of the Heralds (which means there would be 10 total). I also propose that the Unmade are the Cognitive Shadows that Khriss mentions above, and may have at once point served Odium while alive, a bit like how the Forsaken and their relationship to the Dark One in WoT.

I can see it either way, though I think Ishar may just be misguided (keep in mind the Diagram says "almost certainly"). That being said, it's possible that before the Desolation we witness end during the Prelude, Ishar had made an agreement with Odium while being tortured. I don't think he's actively working against our heroes, but it's possible he was told convince the others and abandon the Oathpact, and in return, Odium would spare him and his friends. And you've gone ahead and quoted a passage I've wanted to refer to for a long time. Guess I should go to the Edgedancer Reactions thread with it, though, since it doesn't relate to this topic and I don't think it warrants creating a new one.

Completely missed that! Awesome. I'm definitely in full support of this idea, now. It's always seemed a bit of a stretch that a Darksider, Atium Misting and Elantrian who's far-from-home all found their own unique ways to be Immortal, let alone Khriss, Nazh and the rest. If physically traveling into the Cognitive Realm just freezes their aging, then it's suddenly a single, believable explanation for them all.

I would go so far to say that when someone enters to the Cognitive Realm, they stop aging completely. We already know that physics in the two realms are completely different (shadows in Shadesmar stretching towards light, for example), so I wouldn't be surprised if they remain in the exact same state that they were upon entering the CR. This actual matches the theory that Silverlight exists in the Cognitive Realm pretty dang well, which I've now re-convinced myself is the case, since according to Words of Isaac (I think? Might have been Peter who said it), the star chart of the Cosmere was "imagined" from Silverlight, which is very different from saying it was drawn from its location's perspective. I suppose it's possible that time just slows rather than stops for them in the Cognitive Realm, but during the scene in WoR where Shallan goes into Shadesmar and sees the lights representing the shipmates winking out of existence as they die, it appears all of that is happening in real time. I would think that if time was slower for the Worldhoppers in the Shadesmar, than the events they witness happening on the other side would be slowed down as well. So yeah. I support the idea that when a physical being enters the Cognitive Realm completely, they effectively become frozen at the state they were when they entered it, and that if they reentered the physical realm from the Cognitive, there would be no catching up (a la TLR) required. This also might help explain why Galladon and the IRE remain immortal despite being so far from Elantris. I need to read SH again, but I don't remember the IRE ever using Aons, let alone looking like Elantrians. It's possible that the reason why Baon, Galladon and Demoux are all still alive for the events of WoK is not because they have found their own ways to become immortal via their specific powers, but because they all spend most of their time in the Cognitive Realm, along with Hoid, Khriss, Nazh, and other members of the 17th Shard / Worldhoppers.

I couldn't find the reference on the GN's flaps, but I did look over the Taldain Essay again, and saw this: So as Khriss says, things are not as simple as their assumptions involving Dayside and sunlight. I seem to recall people theorizing that the lichen received the Investiture via sunlight during the photosynthesis process, but I actually think the Investiture is in the atmosphere, maybe piggybacking off of the water vapor (which could also be how Autonomy maintains the world's climate on both ends), and also why Sand Masters need to use their own water to form a Cognitive connection. Those facts combined make it pretty clear to me, compared to any other explanation.

I agree with Broken Sky being Taldain. It matches my theory that Autonomy invested that world's atmosphere, rather than the stars, and helps explain the faces we see in the clouds so often.

Ugh. Both Jond and Doc are giving me genuine good vibes right now, which is boggling my mind a bit. Either way, for now I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't trust Clanky at all, and I'm starting to question my initial hypothesis regarding Nyali, especially now that Mage was revealed village. Knowing that STINK was a Traitor, I find it very suspicious that no one tried to save him, and Nyali adding that 5th vote on him is a bit more suspect to me now, though I suppose not any more than the players who just didn't get involved. So, maybe the reason why no one tried to save STINK was because they were all inactive? Once again, that implicates Clanky, Assassin, polking and Wonko, as that was the same turn no eliminators were killed. I think I'm going to vote for polking, partly because he still hasn't voted yet, which aligns with my theory about why STINK wasn't saved, and partly because I don't trust Clanky's judgment enough yet. I'll go back and read through Assassin's posts now, since I don't remember much that he's said. (2) Assassin in Burgundy: Clanky, Ecthelion III, (2) Doctor12: Nyali, Jondesu, (2) polkinghornbd: Doctor12, Amanuensis, I am votin

Alright, for clarification, since I seem to be confused... Are you saying both the symbols inside the gas giants and the symbols on the far right are the numbers? I thought it was only the symbols on the far right.

Well, hm. Let's work through the potential causes for the afterimages real quick: The afterimages are a byproduct of Szeth dying and being brought back to life. This is a distinct possibility, and might very well be the answer. We've yet to see any other character go through this scenario, and I can't think of any particular counter-argument, so I'd rank this as 50% likely, though it's not the theory I want to happen. The afterimages are a manifestation of the powers Szeth is developing from bonding with Nightblood. We've already seen examples in the story of proto-Radiants using their powers unintentionally (I.E. Kaladin Lashing arrows to the bridge he's carrying). I can see this working the same way; that the afterimages are a part of the powers Szeth is developing, and this is a way to foreshadow them. Like the first bullet, I can't think of any particular counter-argument, but I'm also biased because I want this theory to be the case, because an assassin capable of making real or fake clones of himself could be very fun to read. I rank this at 40% likely. The afterimages are a result of Szeth being unsure of himself. As cool as this idea is, I don't think it's the cause, simply because a ton of people have this problem in the real world. Sure, maybe not a lot have it as bad as Szeth, but I'm sure Lift would have noticed this sort of thing at least once before during her travels. I'd put this explanation at 10% likely, as a result.

Well, based on the fact that Kaladin, Szeth, Shallan and Dalinar are implied to be watched by the Sleepless, I'm sure there are cremlings spying on them. Thing is, cremlings are a pretty common part of their ecology. If a story was being told from your perspective, do you think you'd remark on every insect you see? I know I certainly wouldn't, unless they were pestering me, which I doubt the Sleepless are having the cremling spies do to them, as it would likely prompt the characters to squash them. The largest benefit of being a fly on a wall is that no one notices you. That being said, someone has mentioned a scene where Rock pops a cremling in his mouth. I would not be surprised if that cremling was one of the spies. I look forward to seeing what other scenarios you find in WoR, as it might be a little more obvious there, though personally I doubt we'll find much foreshadowing, as if they are remarked upon, it kinda defeats the purpose of what they're doing to begin with. As for Jasnah... not really sure. They also don't pay much attention to Renarin, which makes me think there's a limited number of Sleepless after the Scouring, and that only a small group of them care enough to spy enough on the Radiants. Considering much of Shallan's story in the first book aligns with Jasnah, it's possible they had been observing her for a long time, but when Shallan showed up, they took notice of her and were intrigued by her peculiar circumstances and unknown motives. After Jasnah was "killed" (retreated into the CR), it's not like they could continue watching her anyway, so maybe Sleepless just moved onto Shallan, if they hadn't officially already. I think someone should ask Brandon "Does the back blurb of The Way of Kings come before, after, or somewhere in the middle of that story?"

Hm. I'd guess that normal KR's cannot. Secret History and Hero of Ages Spoilers: That being said, I personally believe that Szeth is bonding with Nightblood to become something akin to a Knights Radiant, but he will become one unlike any of the prexisting orders. I think that the proto-Skybreakers asking if he's going to fly with them is because they're assuming he can too, since he is one of Nale's apprentices. That or they're taunting him because they know he no longer can. Either way, since Szeth is bonding something entirely different than a Highspren, I don't believe he will be able to use the Gravitation Surge, or any other Surge, for that matter. I believe he will develop abilities unlike any that have been seen on Roshar before. On that note, whether or not Szeth is going to have to speak Oaths to further his bond with Nightblood, I can't say for certain. I actually doubt it, to be honest, though it would be a fun thought experiment to come up with Oaths that pertain to Nightblood. I think that Szeth is going to end up adhering to the same Command that Nightblood was given; in other words, is going to adopt the purpose of "destroying evil." This is a part of the reason why I think Szeth will end up being the one who ends up defeating Odium, or at least, play a pivotal role in his defeat. Despite me rooting for Kaladin pulling through (mostly because I love Syl and don't want her to die), I do think it'd be a better story if Kaladin proved the Stormfather right by succumbing to his Hatred, thus becoming Odium's Champion, rather than Honor's. If one of the two halves ended with Kaladin and Szeth fighting again, and this time their roles reversed with Szeth ending up the victor, I would be pretty satisfied, honestly. Back to the Afterimages. I disagree with them not being associated with Nightblood. I believe they're a part of the powers that Szeth is developing because of the bond he's forming with the sentient sword. I think that maybe as Szeth's bond gets stronger, he will be able to control these afterimages, either to create illusionary clones or even physical clones outright, to aid him future battles.

(2) Assassin in Burgundy: Clanky, Ecthelion III, (1) polkinghornbd: Doctor12, (1) Doctor12: Nyali, Current vote tally, and a little less than 16 hours left in the turn to figure out who to kill. Like Nyali said, a couple more mislynches and we could lose this. I've thought as much as I can right now about this, and I still think Jond's actions point to him being evil. @Jondesu, you've yet to vote this turn. Who are you suspicious of, and why? Answering this question thoroughly might help me decide where to go from here. Right now I'm leaning towards voting on Doc with Nyali, because I trust her more than him and Clanky. That being said, I also might vote for Assassin or polking, because as I said earlier, I do believe one of the low-inactivity players is evil, I just can't decide on which one. The good thing is, most of them are already voting this turn, so it might help us figure out which one with a little more information. @polkinghornbd, do you have any thoughts to contribute? Who are you suspicious of? Anyone enough to vote for them? I'm still waiting on you, @Wonko the Sane. Have you caught up yet? What are your thoughts?

Hm. Someone else would have to answer that, as I'm not entirely sure. But on your second point, yes. That's a bit of my point. Guyn of the 17th Shard is the maker of these maps. The fact that planets like Braize, whom they know is inhabited by Odium, is not marked with a symbol, along with all the other various worlds that we know next-to-nothing about, yet those 10 particular Gas Giants all have those Glyphs imbedded in them, suggests to me that there's some kind of connection between them and the Heralds, or at least the Knights Radiant, and that the 17th Shard (or at least Guyn) is aware of it. To reference the exact quote: As Khriss says, the Rosharan System is unusually crowded, and I doubt Brandon is having her point it out because their existence is mundane. I propose that their manifestations on Shadesmar are minor because there is no life there; that they are giant spheres of Investiture, likely created by Honor (though perhaps by Adonalsium and hijacked by him, though I doubt it) for the purposes of the Oathpact. Instead, they are bound to the Heralds, hence why they haven't developed sentience of their own, and since all but Taln are on Roshar and he is stuck in the Cognitive Realm of Braize being tortured by Odium, there's nothing really to observe. Now, I think Guyn himself has a theory about these gas giants. I don't think he's the kind of guy to place symbols as important of those on a map arbitrarily. Whether he believes that they're connected to the Heralds or the Knights Radiant specifically, I can't say, but I personally think it's the Heralds themselves, as it would help explain their immortality, as well as a part of the reason why Odium is bound to begin with.

Ah, I see. You're assuming it happened recently. Since this is a different subject than the OP, please look here for discussion on that matter.

That is what I mean the general consensus is that is definitely Hoid, based on his mannerisms, and how well the two events correlate, and that those two characters would get along phenomenally.

Well, in my mind the two correlate way too perfectly. Bavadin, the Shard of Taldain, portrays herself as different godlike personas. We see a bunch of faces in the clouds, which Brandon has remarked were intentional of him, although he didn't mean for them to be so obvious. I reckon that this is literally Autonomy looking down on the events unfolding. Hm. I may have accidently referenced something from the prose, which for all we know isn't canon... my bad. For some reason I thought that was either common knowledge or in the Graphic Novel. Sorry ladies and gents, I can go ahead and edit that out if necessary. As for the essay, Sand Masters don't consider what they do magic. To them, it's a natural part of their culture, and that attitude is actually reflected in the GN, if I'm not mistaken.