kari-no-sugata

The shipping wars are really getting out of hand

One way or another, I'm expecting Shallan's and Adolin's relationship to change. Certainly there's all sorts of differences, some big, some small. "closest equivalent" is the phrase I used after all. I could write all sorts of stuff on how Shallan might reevaluate Adolin, but some of that depends on the specifics of how things unfold and we're close enough to the next release that it's probably better to wait. Certainly there are all sorts of ways it could go badly. Exactly how Shallan deals with it will depend on the situation. For example, if she finds out during the meeting with Ialai then I think it would be very unlikely that she says anything at the time and it would put massive strain on her (she might need to use "Radiant" to avoid giving herself away, for example), but that might also give her the chance to calm down and think things through before saying anything. If instead she finds out when she and Adolin are alone then she might ask straight away or she might decide to give herself some time to think it over. I think if Shallan compares her experiences with Adolin's she might approach him quite calmly. Or maybe not. But I certainly believe that Shallan has the capacity to decide that Adolin was dealing with difficult circumstances and that Shallan herself might have done the same thing in his shoes. Ideally, I would like to see Shallan confess some of her past deeds to Adolin as part of this (essentially to show that he's not alone in this and that she understands). But that could have the opposite effect.

Before discussing probabilities, I'll try to break down the possible scenarios for Shallan herself for Part 1 (there would be more possibilities but I'll keep things simple). Scenario 1: it becomes generally known (public) that Adolin killed Sadeas. Shallan's options would be to support Adolin (perhaps only secrely), reject/condemn him or to stay neutral. I suspect Dalinar would be highly likely to forbid their relationship to continue and I also wouldn't be surprised if Adolin distances himself from Shallan for her own sake. Scenario 2: Shallan privately finds out that Adolin killed Sadeas. Her options would be: keep quiet and pretend that she doesn't know, to break off her relationship with Adolin without saying why, to try to verify the truth with Adolin and reject/condemn him afterwards, to try to verify the truth with Adolin and support him afterwards, or to go public or to tell Adolin to turn himself in. If Scenario 1 happens, I think Shallan's relationship will be officially broken whether she likes it or not. I think her natural curiosity would lead her to continue to investigate the copy-cat murders though (unless they are already resolved). For Scenario 2, I think the least likely option is that she runs to the authorities or tells Adolin to do the same - Shallan's never done something like that as far as I remember. I don't think she'd be able to simply keep quiet and ignore it either - maybe for a few days but it would be stressful to pretend she doesn't know for a long time. She would want to know the truth. For the other options in Scenario 2 I think we first have to judge what Sadeas was to Shallan. We've not seen much from her about him but I wouldn't be surprised if her reaction to his death was rather like Palona's ("one less problem"). To Shallan, Sadeas should be an "antagonist" or "threat" - he has obviously targeted people that she cares about, she herself has made plans to help neutralise him, and she most likely suffered an "attack" from his side herself (with the bridge drop). For the last point, it's never been confirmed that Shallan knows that Sadeas would be the most likely suspect but it would not be surprising (It'll be interesting to see if Shallan raises this with Ialai). Shallan has also heard Adolin's side about Sadeas back in WoR, she saw that Adolin reacted strangely to the 1st copy-cat murder, she saw that he was strangely attached to the idea that the copy-cat murderer was a different person and has since gotten evidence for that, she saw that Adolin was working hard on the case, and she just recently saw that Adolin feels that he hasn't lived up to Dalinar's expectations and is hiding something from her. So, in a way it shouldn't come as a surprise except that so far Shallan's view of Adolin has been rather rose-tinted. If anything she finds him to be annoyingly perfect. The closest equivalent that I can see in Shallan's past would be when Jasnah killed the robbers, with the biggest difference being that Shallan was there and saw the events herself. Shallan was shocked, angry and upset at the time but she got over it - Shallan was practically worshipping Jasnah by the time we got to WoR. Shallan has also become more open with herself about her own past actions since Jasnah killed the robbers. Putting that all together, I would say that Shallan would be shocked but would get over it sooner or later. I would expect her to confront Adolin about it one way or another. Shallan has never felt threatened by Adolin so I think the only way her opinion of him would go negative is if Adolin reacted very badly, which would be very unlike him. In such a scenario I would actually expect Adolin to break down. In the end, I think Shallan's view of Adolin would become less "rose-tinted" but more "real". btw, if Scenario 2 happens in Part 1 I would still expect Scenario 1 to happen sooner or later. Probably around the time Kaladin returns to Urithiru...

I had previously mentioned some brief ideas on the character arcs for Part 1. Here's a longer version. I think Kaladin's is quite simple. What I currently expect to happen is that he'll use the example of him protecting Rlain to extend that to all parshmen who agree with not taking revenge on the humans. The parshmen will have to decide between revenge and freedom. I think Dalinar's arc is most likely to revolve around "trust" - people trusting him (or not) and him trusting others. I would say that's been the most consistent thread with all his chapters (though there's probably other ways to describe it). I don't know if his regained memories of Evi will feed into that or not. In Shallan's case, Adolin has either been in every chapter of hers or been relevant. For her story arc, earlier on there was a bit more focus on her relationship with Pattern and her internal struggles but that is fading in favour of her getting increasingly involved with Adolin and the murder case. Putting it another way, Adolin and events related to Sadeas's murder have come up in all of her chapters. Based on that, for Shallan's personal character arc I think we'll have to see how she reacts to finding out that Adolin was the one who killed Sadeas. In which case this will likely turn out to be foreshadowing: I think the most likely result is that Shallan will welcome Adolin into her flock of black sheep, as it were, though I don't know how much of that we'll see in Part 1 and whether she'll tell Adolin anything about herself (or even if Adolin will accept).

Dalinar is publicly challenging various things about tradition. No reason why Ialai can't try.

So... rather than a dramatic and tension filled scene following the latest chapter.... we're going to go down a "make love not war" route and Shallan x Adolin x Ialai x Mraize? Try unseeing that

Yeah, there's so many different ways in which the follow-on chapter could go. Going to be interesting to see Ialai's approach. Shallan's already going against a cultural tradition (in private) by learning the sword. Ialai aiming to become a ruler in her own right would likely go against tradition even more... and with much more significant consequences. PS Meanwhile, we should be getting close to the climax of Part 1 - we're likely only going to get 2-3 more chapters from each character. From what Brandon has said we should see each character have a story arc climax of some sort. Kaladin's seems likely to involve him protecting the parshmen. Shallan's looks set to involve either herself/Pattern or Adolin (I'd guess Adolin). Adolin's looks likely to involve either Shallan or Sadeas. Dalinar's looks likely to somehow revolve around Evi or how he deals with others in general.

I don't think sitting-on-a-throne Ialai's ambition would be satisfied by small things - I expect that she'll try to put herself in charge of the whole place. So I expect her to try various things to achieve that and ultimately fail. So she'll either be killed or she'll flee to some other location. So I don't see her staying at Urithiru long term.

Random thought I've had: perhaps in the past Ialai has asked the Ghostbloods to assassinate Jasnah. Seeing Ialai on a throne feels appropriate to her character, but also gives a sense of her getting ahead of herself. How long will it be until she's pulled off of it? I'm not sure how capable Ialai really is but I doubt she'll be a rival to Jasnah. Instead, she seems the type to not take the Radiants seriously or appreciate the changes that have been going on in general. In other words, she's the rotten "old guard" type of character who needs to be dealt with. However, I'm guessing a lot here based on not much at all. Maybe I'll be surprised...

Any bets on Ialai surviving the book? I'd say no.

I think that there has to be some meaning in Ialai agreeing to the meeting with Adolin. I have no doubt that she plans to gain something from it. However, I feel hesitant about predicting what that might be. It might even be something from left field like trying to recruit Adolin - in which case, Mraize and Shallan being there would suddenly take on a whole new meaning. Whatever it is I doubt it's going to be fun for Adolin. I also wouldn't be surprised if Ialai tries to use the copy-cat murder to some end. At the very least, I'm sure it'll come up in the discussion, one way or the other. However, I think there also has to be some meaning for Shallan's investigations with Veil. From a story telling perspective, having Shallan find out a deeper mystery only for it to be explained a few chapters later seems unlikely, and having Shallan find out about it only for Ialai or Mraize to also reveal it feels like it would make Shallan's investigations rather pointless. It feels like something that should become more mysterious rather than less. "Oh some weirdo in the Ghostbloods did it" feels like a let-down. In addition, I feel that Shallan not yet telling Adolin about the second copy-cat is going to make some kind of difference. It might be a positive difference or it might be negative one. For example, if Ialai (or Mraize) try to use the copy-cat murder in some way but the way the words are phrased indicates that they don't know about the second copy-cat then that would be rather interesting, and could allow for Shallan to gain the jump on them in some way. However, it might have been better for Shallan to tell Adolin about it beforehand instead, in some circumstances. So many options. Going back to my theory that Ialai (and probably Sadeas) have been involved with the Ghostbloods for some time: based on Shallan's feelings so far, I don't think she'll ever come to side with the Ghostbloods long term and I don't think she'll side with Ialai either. I think they're too incompatible. However, that might force her to decide between her brothers and the Kholins. That's not going to be fun. Particularly if Jasnah returns before that's resolved. I thought the same after WoR and it still feels the same so far. Without things getting violent, the most extreme thing I can think of happening during this meeting is that something triggers the thought in Shallan's mind that Adolin was in fact the one to kill Sadeas. Shallan has picked up several clues in this regard, but they're all rather vague by themselves and there's no real "smoking gun". I'm sure Shallan will find this out sooner or later, one way or the other, but this would perhaps be the worst possible timing. Anyway... it's going to be interesting for sure. Not knowing much about either Mraize or Ialai does make things quite a lot harder to predict.

Okay... so you think Ialai doesn't particularly care whether it was Adolin or not but just wants an excuse to force him to confess to something he didn't necessarily do by being twisted and sadistic? And this is supposed to be "rational"? Really? Doing things like that almost always has the opposite effect. If she was going to go that far, she wouldn't wait for a natural murder. She's cause one herself then copy it herself. btw, this second copycat was "a few days back". So even if it was 2 days ago at the time, Ialai waited an extra day. PS My guess is that if Ialai is going to target anyone, it'll be Renarin the "creepy one" who mysteriously became a Radiant.

So you think Ialai believes that Adolin did it but has no evidence? After all, if she had evidence that would be the logical thing to use. And if so, why wait 10 days to talk to Adolin then?

Assuming Mraize was referring to Taravangian (and that does seem reasonable) then that was before Taravangian became king of Jah Keved and blew away all of Mraize's assumptions about the guy Forcing yourself to act under unnecessary constraints when doing something dangerous is not rational. And continuing with once off copycat murders if anything puts less emphasis on Sadeas. And if the point is to put pressure on the powers that be (ie the lighteyes) then killing someone so insignificant that it took Shallan taking undercover action to find out about it is not a sign of rationality. If someone connected with Sadeas wanted to "send a message" specifically about Sadeas then I could understand if they kept copying Sadeas's murder multiple times. But copying a completely unrelated murder and of someone "insignificant" does the opposite. You suggest that this gives Ialai an alibi as a benefit but that seems a rather pointless thing to do if you want revenge.

A few thoughts on Ialai and her possible involvement with the Ghostbloods. We have little real idea of what their goal is but Mraize and co do take a rather ruthless attitude - eg hunt or be hunted. Kill or be killed. They also seem to appreciate ambition. It was pointed out in chapter 21 that Sadeas's men shouldn't be taken lightly simply because they look rather messy. It's also pointed out that Sadeas made them compete with each other. That feels very similar to the Ghostbloods. So my guess would be that Ialai is not merely a client of the Ghostbloods, but a member. Not only that, she's probably been a member for a long time. Quite possibly Sadeas himself as well. If Mraize is officially the spy master or something like that then clearly he would have plans for Sadeas and presumably wanted Sadeas to become king. In which case Mraize might well be very unhappy with Sadeas's death. I don't think he would necessarily be out for revenge though and instead will be trying to overthrow Dalinar or Elhokhar instead, I guess. He or Ialai might even be in contact with Taravangian and plan to do a joint attack when the Oathgate to Jah Keved opens. For the copy-cat murders... I think it would be highly unlikely to be the work of a person or organisation who wants to threaten / blackmail / similar the other people. Why? Think about it - if you can only use these "threats" when someone else has been murdered first then you aren't in control - if all murders stop then you have nothing. In addition, by promising (effectively) to copy the murder shortly afterwards in a similar location then it makes it easier to be found. Also, what's the actual point of copying the murders so exactly? So in conclusion, it's doubtful that this is the work of someone sane or rational. The creepiness of the copying also suggests this and further suggests that something supernatural might be involved. Also, the more dangerous and hard to understand the copycat is the more it raises the stakes. So I think Mraize wasn't behind the copycat murders and I also think that perhaps Mraize doesn't know about the 2nd copycat murder yet. Shallan hasn't told Adolin about the second one. If Shallan thinks that it would be better not to reveal this info to Mraize or Ialai then I'm sure she'll keep quiet about it. If she had told Adolin he would probably reveal it either way, so it might turn out to be important that Shallan didn't mention it to him. If Shallan withholds the information then it would most likely be because it would safer that way. If Mraize hasn't grasped what Shallan has about the copycat murders and is just as confused then it would probably be better to leave him confused.

Looking at the tWoK annotations so far, it's clear that Brandon was willing to challenge readers big time. I wonder what he'll say about Shallan when the annotations reach her chapters. Of the main characters so far (those we've seen plenty of viewpoints from), I think Shallan is probably the biggest outlier - there's almost a sense of "what's she even doing here in the first place" and she often makes it hard for readers to sympathise with her, eg by struggling to justify her motivations for theft early on and in general calling attention to her deficiencies (something she continues doing into WoR). She's also an artist, which feels rather useless, even if she's a supernaturally good one. So my impression is that many readers are not willing to give Shallan the benefit of the doubt. I've always found this to be a shame as I've been fascinated by her since the start. While her story in tWoK wasn't conventionally exciting I was intrigued by her and I found just as much satisfaction in re-reading her story as I did Kaladin's and Dalinar's - after the initial read I would often just re-read one particular character's thread rather than the whole book. After WoR came out I spent a lot of time re-reading her chapters, trying to read between the lines and get deep into her character. Hopefully that'll pay off in OB.

I think her relationship with Pattern seemingly becoming more normal (compared to her first chapter in OB) is a good sign that she is starting to get over her pain at least (though this is another tricky subject that is quite open to interpretation). Initially Pattern seemed quite concerned. If he doesn't bring up the "kill me and get a replacement" option again then that would be a good sign. Actually, it's not just Shallan. Anyone who knows what happened to Jasnah and knows that Radiants could survive such a thing could make the same guess. If we see Shallan raise the subject herself I guess it would either be in a scenario where she confesses her past sins to someone or when Jasnah returns.

That's fine, it's just what I would do. Though I'm not going to address every point (due to lack of time). I think it's important to take a step back and recall that Shallan was slowly learning about her Radiant abilities during WoR. So when did she first know that it was possible to survive something like that? Only after she dropped down into the chasms. Until that point, she had no reason to believe that Jasnah had any chance of survival. So what she said to Navani was her honest opinion at the time. I don't think she has to analyse the boat situation in detail. She just has to think "Jasnah could probably have survived those wounds" With regards to her being "foolhardy", I think this is just an extension of how she behaved before but this is a complex topic. The way I see it, Shallan blames herself for many things and as a consequence is not especially bothered if she has to go through some physical pain. It's not that she wishes to be unhappy or wants to be in pain but rather that she doesn't prioritise herself like normal people do. I think she's been facing her pain more directly since the start of OB. At least, it comes up a lot more often and more strongly than it did in WoR. Though part of that is because she can't avoid it due to her Truth. Hard to say how much. I was thinking of Ialai.

Well, we don't really know how Shallan spends her time currently. She was busy with the Oathgate for a while but it's hard to say what other things there were that she "had" to do as a priority rather than things she had to resolve sometime (of which she has a lot). So, I think she has had enough time to think about Jasnah and that Jasnah could have survived, and that she blames herself for preventing Jasnah's survival. Chapter 21: Hmm. I had thought that Shallen had said or thought something like this line already in previous chapters but it's the only one I can find in OB (she did say something similar in WoR though). Anyway, Jasnah literally took a knife through the chest and Shallan knows that. So she'd only have to think about "Jasnah's death through stabbing" once after she became aware that a Radiant could survive that to think that "Jasnah could have survived if I'd done something different". Since the start of OB, Shallan has had a lot of mental pain going through her and certainly most/all of that is because of events in her past because we see her thinking about that. But it's also possible that Jasnah's death could be an addition to that and part of the reason why she hates herself but it's mostly being drowned out by the pain of stabbing her own mother through the chest. It wouldn't be the first time that Shallan privately worried about something but we didn't find out until later. We'll have to wait and see of course, but this could turn out to be foreshadowing. Another way in which this line is could be foreshadowing is that someone tries to assassinate Shallan. She doesn't even have a proper door and has been quite casual about the dangers facing her (not that this is new) and she's low on Stormlight. I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan goes on the offensive against Ialai to protect Adolin, making herself a target - eg, bringing up the bridge drop which could have killed her (and Kaladin) that was targeted at Dalinar. I wouldn't be surprised to see her summon Patternblade as a little demonstration either. However, obviously protecting Adolin in front of Mraize would be dangerous too.

Regarding the "style" of the Kaladin chapters. This is possibly a conscious choice to give greater variety. In tWoK, Shallan's chapters were often fairly low tension early on, to give a sort of "breather" to readers - if every chapter is super tense then the lack of variety and contrast actually undermines the tension. In OB, Dalinar's chapters are full of tension, for the most part, though the strength of the tension is not that high currently. Shallan's chapters veer across a wide range of emotions. Kaladin's chapters are more of an ocean of stability... for now. I'm sure this'll change at some point. Putting it another way, Kaladin is currently the bread in the sandwich. I agree with previous posts that what Kaladin is doing is almost certainly the right thing. I've said it before that the Parshendi/Parshman are probably victims of Odium. I'm pretty sure that Brandon has said that they were on the planet before any Shards got involved. Meaning, they're the natives and got caught up in the war. The main question to me then becomes - is it possible to protect them from Odium's influence long term? If they'll all become "evil" sooner or later then that's one thing but if not then they're potential allies instead, but only if they can learn to trust each other. While what Kaladin is doing is something of a repeat of tWoK, the context is very different - in tWoK he was in a position of weakness and was unquestionably doing the right thing while here he is in a position of strength but it's more ambiguous as to whether he is doing is right or not. However, Syl doesn't seem to be against Kaladin trying to help them.

And if the next chapter is about that we'll all start screaming about the Mraize cliffhanger!

I'm really curious what Mraize's goal is here. What's he hunting? Or is he only there because Ialai asked him to for some reason? Does he have any particular powers that would help determine something? Here's a crazy idea: Ialai is Iyatil. Random reminder that Iyatil wants revenge on Amaram, which suddenly feels rather odd here. Here's less crazy idea: Mraize has Oathbringer. Gah... just thinking about what could happen makes my mind explode. Even worse - while reading the chapter I noticed that we were getting close to the end and I had wondered if there'd be some cliffhanger and in an earlier post I had suggested Mraize might be contacting Shallan soon... and it never occurred to me that he might be there. Sanderson...!!

This is probably worth highlighting strongly. There's probably some Stormlight in the room but Shallan doesn't have any on her and neither does Adolin. It's not just the immediate problem here - Shallan is probably going to have to go without Stormlight for however long it takes until the next highstorm. She's now a lot more vulnerable.

Shallan knew for certain that Jasnah was a Radiant in the making as Jasnah confirmed it and Shallan even saw Jasnah's spren. What we've not seen is confirmation that she knew both what Jasnah's Order was and what that Order could do at the time of Jasnah's "death" - Shallan probably needed the in-world book Words of Radiance for that, I would think, since Jasnah hadn't spoken much about herself except that they were in different Orders (but shared a Surge).

Sanity is boring. Just like her already Just for reference: early in WoR she had a very vague memory of using Stormlight during her childhood as well. Back when Jasnah was being stabbed (sob): So these memories seem to be coming through more clearly. Hopefully we'll get some insight into her childhood in this book. That she knew how to suppress it in the past isn't by itself that scary, I'd say. If a child has a special secret they would likely want to keep it from others, whether it's other children or adults. This is something I've been wondering about since the end of WoR. At the time of Jasnah's death, Shallan wouldn't have been able to guess, but she since learned that she could heal from such things. She probably didn't know Jasnah was an Elsecaller at the time either and so wouldn't have been able to guess her powers. So yeah, by now she should be able to connect the dots - I've been wondering if she secretly worries that she might have doomed Jasnah when she might have survived otherwise.