kari-no-sugata

Look up Rushu in WoR. She doesn't act like Vivenna at all, I would say. Maybe you're being tongue-in-cheek about this though...? Also, my impression of the various WoBs is that we hadn't seen Vivenna in tWoK or WoR. If that is true then Rushu can't be Vivenna since she already appeared in WoR. Something like that yes, based on hints from WoBs. I don't know if it was confirmed whether there were any Bondsmiths around at the time of the Recreance though. Here's a recent WoB: The Heirocracy is in recent history, the Recreance is in ancient history. PS Great effort! (Have an upvote)

Just because a character believes something to be true it doesn't mean it actually is true. Until we know for certain that they properly tested the Honorblade, I don't think we can know for sure. (They might not even know what it really is...) On a somewhat related note, given Shallan's critical importance as the only known way to get in and out of Urithiru while Kaladin is away... I'm surprised there weren't more guards with her. Where's her personal guards?

A minor thing: More evidence that there's going to be cultural problems with the return of the Radiants etc. No surprise at all. What I'm more curious about is what Shallan thinks about the whole "Honor is dead" thing, since she's the most religious major character. Dalinar being a tad possessive there, I'd say.

That's how I saw it. Urithiru is too big and she's too close for her to be able to get a proper perspective on it. Which is why she wanted "Brightlord Brooding-Eyes" to act as her personal photography drone...

Okay, some quick thoughts... Kaladin's chapter was the longest. I'm glad he took the initial approach he did, calming things down before summoning the Shardblade - that would have been my suggestion. Glad to see that Laral is independent and capable. I don't think Kaladin is yet over his issues with lighteyes. As expected, there was some spanreeds and it looks like Kaladin is going to do some scouting. Yay Shallan. She speaks! As expected, she's not over her mother's death but doesn't blame Pattern. In an interesting counterpart to Adolin, she's trying hard to distract herself from thinking about it. She is publicly claiming to be an Elsecaller so that people don't know she's a Lightweaver and can still trick them. She can spot the patterns in the strata in the walls well enough that she can locate herself based on them, unlike anyone else it seems - I bet this comes up later in an emergency. Looks like we have our first example of what Bondsmiths can do - it seems his ability somehow interacted with Shallan for her to be able to create a projection of the continent. I was very happy to see this since creating Lightweaving maps was something I had thought of. While Shallan demurred from offering advice about countries she barely knew anything about the map projection did light a fire in Dalinar - focus on the Oathgates first. But oh, there's been another murder and it looks like a copycat of the Sadeas one. Interesting. I wonder who did this and why. Shallan can clearly see that Adolin is behaving unusually, and it looks like Renarin can too. Dalinar puts Adolin in charge of investigating the murders... heh.

Shallan's family had a spanreed and they were supposedly quite provincial. Unless that was only because of Shallan's father's involvement with the Ghostbloods, I wouldn't be surprised if most decent sized towns have one. Tyn had one and she was quite small-time. They're a recent invention but they don't seem that expensive and the utility value is very high.

The sum total of Shallan's existence in the first 6 chapters is like this (chapters 4 and 6): There's been a bit of speculation about this. Trying to summarise things a bit... There's been speculation from several posters that maybe the "Shallan" we see here is actually Lightweaving, and the real Shallan is elsewhere. I certainly don't think this is impossible for Lightweaving to be capable of this and I wouldn't be too surprised to see Shallan being able to do this at some point in the series. However, I can see several problems with this: firstly, this would be much more advanced than anything Shallan has done so far - the Lightweaving would have to interact with others, including sound. In technical complexity that already puts it several steps ahead of anything Shallan has demonstrated so far. A second problem is that Lightweaving is just light and has no substance so she wouldn't be able to touch anything and nobody would be able to touch her - this makes it very easy to expose so it would be extremely risky to use if there's any downsides to it being exposed (which I would say is highly likely). Even if we theorise that the Ghostbloods are already forcing Shallan to do things I don't see why they would be putting her under so much pressure that she has to risk exposing herself - it would be self-defeating. Also, this is on two completely different occasions. I dunno if there's anything magical going on here. A more mundane but still magical possibility is that Shallan is doing something (quite possibly unconsciously) that has the effect of people not noticing her so well. Just a small effect, though the effect is enhanced in crowds (explaining why it had no obvious effect in Dalinar's POV of Shallan right at the end of WoR). The idea here is that maybe Shallan is more depressed than expected and wants to be left alone (while not making it obvious to others) and this desire is being magically enhanced. Can Lightweaving achieve this though? Maybe. It can certainly make her stand out more so maybe it can do the opposite too. Another possibility is that Dalinar is simply not paying much attention to Shallan. I have no real justification for this idea though - I don't see why Dalinar would be thinking like this. On a more general note: I seem to remember Brandon being quoted as saying that Shallan was getting a bit full of herself during WoR (or something like that). It would be dangerous if that turned into arrogance. Shallan's last POV scene in WoR would also be painful for her as she had always feared that having to acknowledge what she did to her mother could mentally cripple her. Shallan has gotten tougher mentally, but it would probably stretch credibility for her to be unaffected by this. This is definitely not to suggest that Shallan is going to be massively knocked back as a character or something - once she fully accepts her past she should be stronger than ever. Maybe characters being haunted by their past and getting over it will be a major element of this book - we've already seen aspects of this with Dalinar and Kaladin.

There's lots of smart reasons for summoning Syl though. It's also "cool". It also makes a certain flashback scene in tWoK rather poetic - Laral had suggested to a young Kaladin that he could try to win a Shardblade and marry her (or something like that). Anyway, with regards to more practical reasons: one, it stops any fighting right there. Two, it puts him in control of the immediate situation and the bigger problem - it would actually prove he outranks Roshane automatically. Three, it would give him believable grounds to explain what the heck he's been up to until now. He needs to do all that very quickly either way and I don't see another way to achieve that.

At least in the Part One header we were promised POVs from "Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin", so we should be seeing some of Shallan soon. IIRC Part One was said to be quite short. Not much to go on really, except the events at the end of WoR. Not a single description of how she looks, reacts, interacts, anything - just that she exists in the scene. Is this foreshadowing by lack of foreshadowing? (I probably won't comment too much more on this since there's much more meaty things to discuss...)

I don't see any logical reason for this to be the case. Shallan hasn't been acting as Veil for many weeks at this point, as far as we know. In the last scene we saw of Shallan in WoR (from Dalainar's POV), Shallan seemed a bit "off" to me (quieter and more solemn), but she's like a ghost so far in Oathbringer. Hmm, I do seem to remember that she has a tendency to be quiet in crowds but I thought she got over that in WoR. So, either Shallan was hit harder by the events at the end of WoR (accepting that she killed her mother), or that changed her more than expected, or something new has happened. Or some combination.

4: Dalinar and Navani have shot-gun marriage on top of a skyscraper that would put Las Vegas to shame! 5: Kaladin's gloomy homecoming 6: Kaladin punches away the gloom I'm having severe Shallan withdrawal symptoms here. I can't imagine her quietly hanging out in the background is by accident though, so I can't help but wonder what's going on in Shallan-land.

Well, Shallan being in an entire scene without saying anything or having any obvious reaction is perhaps an indication that all is not well in Shallan-land However, we already knew at the end of WoR that she wasn't crippled. Her final POV scene was on the first night in Urithiru but in the final scene from Dalinar's POV there's this (Chapter 89, "The Four"):

See the end of chapter 18 in WoR where Syl asks Kaladin "Who were you protecting?" after he felt the Stormlight drain from him.

It is not correct that it only matters what the person / Radiant thinks. Going back to a WoB that you quoted: Both the person and the spren have to believe that the Oaths are being kept. In WoR, Kaladin believed he was justified in doing certain things (even while having reservations) but Syl disagreed which is what weakened the bond. This is not to say that there aren't loopholes. It's also worth remembering that the Radiants (or rather spren based Surgebinders) are pretty much an accident. There's no reason to believe it could or should be perfect. The way I see it, what is now considered to be the common first Oath was established quite late and is part of what made them the "Knights Radiant" (an organisation with a common code of conduct/ethics for all Surgebinders) rather than merely a bunch of Surgebinders. I don't know how that first Oath was added but I suspect it had to be something that all Orders could agree to and since there were big differences between the Orders that meant it had to meaningful enough to be useful and vague enough that all could agree upon it.

I'm pretty sure that was referring to Shallan taking a dip early on in WoR, rather than referring to something in Oathbringer.

Vorin culture and traditions is certainly ripe for rapid changes. A culture of back-stabbing is dumb at the best of times. When your very survival is at stake then it's suicidal. The public use of weapons being male-only is already over with Shallan though it'll take some time for that to go from a "once off" to a "rare case" to being generally accepted. Since Shardbearers are automatically of a certain rank, once we start seeing 10s and 100s of new Radiants, that will shift the culture of high ranking lighteyes since most of those newcomers will not be high ranking lighteyes originally. Etc.

Adolin (or anyone) reviving a Shardblade is a tricky one. Something can be nearly impossible to do by accident and never done before (in-world) but written in a believable way. If done badly it can feel like an chull-pull. The next question, is what happens next. If the reasons for the success (and lack of previous success) are explained well then it should be possible to predict what might happen now that it's confirmed to be possible. My general feeling is that even when people know that it's possible and have a reasonable idea of what to do it will still be very hard to replicate. Maybe even by the 2nd half of the series there'll only be a few more examples. We shall see. Part of me feels sad about that since all those spren would still be trapped in pain.

I definitely expect to see some travel between Urithiru and some other locations, though it'll probably have to wait until they can get a reasonable supply of Stormlight first, even if everything else was ready. But I think the "everything else" will be the blocker - which leaders would want to allow it and what portals can be used in practice. It's likely that some of the Oathgates are either unusable or require some work to restore them to functionality. Either way, the world's about to become a smaller place. Azir does seem likely, since they already have their own resident Radiant. Just need to fill out lots of paperwork! I really want to see how Shallan and Lift interact... I dunno if Karbranth has an Oathgate. Each of the Silver Kingdoms had one but we don't know the capitals. It might be that what's now Thaylen City has the Oathgate. Merchants = trade, so either option would be interesting. Jah Keved is an interesting possibility. I wonder what stance Taravangian will take.

I seem to remember Brandon saying that he wanted to create a character who was intentionally far from the "image" of a "knight" and Lift was the result. So yeah, not typical. But she still has to match certain aspects of the Edgedancers - ie her Oaths. Regarding "grow into it", I also suspect that Lift will become slightly more typical of Edgedancers over time - essentially due to their shared Surges and Oaths (and spren type). With regards to the "image" of "Edgedancers" that Nale talks about, it's of course different to untangle certain things. For example: cause and effect - is their "grace" a side effect of them needing good balance to make use of their powers effectively (ie something they develop over time) or something that they're selected for from the start? Their Oaths don't reflect it and while Wyndle seems rather "genteel" it doesn't mean that "refinement and grace" is their main selection criteria (no evidence that I can see). For example: side-effect of the magic system - automatic bonus from their spren bond, perhaps. For example: traditions/ideals - maybe the Edgedancer Herald was particularly well known for certain things so the Radiants followed that. For example: group think sustained over generations - maybe it's something that simply developed over time for no obvious reason. Anyway... Getting a bit off topic. I'm not sure if Edgedancer spren would either "like" or "dislike" Adolin's actions. Highly speculative for now at least. Maybe they would see Sadeas as a "weed" that needed to be eradicated? If we ever do see Adolin reviving his Shardblade then I guess it means he won't lose it (or at least not permanently).

I think a lot of people struggle to imagine the viewpoint of spren. They are very definitely not human and don't judge humans in the way that other humans do, and often find human ways baffling. So yes, I agree - I can also see underlying principals in some of Adolin's behaviour that are in common with some of Lift's behaviour that is relevant to the Edgedancers (or rather, their spren). Possibly chapter 37, in response to Adolin seeing Sadeas...? With regards to archetypes, I think that's pretty much the equivalent to what I was saying.

Thanks Unless Jasnah can travel much faster than a walking pace, I suspect it'll take her around a month to get to Urithiru (maybe more maybe less), assuming that's even where she's heading. She might also be heading to Urithiru in order to get to another place, via the Oathgates, so she might not stay for long. Unless Oathbringer takes place over many months, I'm not expecting to see too much of Jasnah either, unfortunately. Going back to Shallan, the official preview for the book says "Nestled in the mountains high above the storms, in the tower city of Urithiru, Shallan Davar investigates the wonders of the ancient stronghold of the Knights Radiant and unearths dark secrets lurking in its depths", so investigation and research might be her main priority indeed. Since she's already led such a project once (with a lot of help from Jasnah's notes) then it'll be hard for her to argue against it. I'm also sure she's curious anyway and probably considers such work to be a continuation of her work to get to Urithiru in the first place - the whole point was to try to find reliable documents on the Voidbringers. I'm not sure if "double agent" is quite the right word. But yes, she'll definitely be being pulled in different directions by the Ghostbloods and the Kholins (and those around them). I'm sure she'll want to avoid doing any dirty work for the Ghostbloods but if they consider her a long term investment and want to keep a low profile then they'll probably not make anything too demanding early on. On the other hand, if the Ghostbloods want to get rid of the Kholins then things could get very messy very quickly. I think the worst case scenario for Shallan's character is if Shallan feels betrayed by the Kholins (eg Dalinar's reaction to Adolin's actions might upset her a lot), as that would effectively push her closer to the Ghostbloods. However, given Shallan's attitude towards the Ghostbloods at the end of WoR I'd be surprised if Shallan doesn't turn on them at some point. She'll definitely have some difficult choices to make, either way. Going back to Jasnah's possible return, I would expect that things would become particularly "interesting" with relation to the Ghostbloods if/when Jasnah returns. After all, there's already plenty of bad blood between Jasnah and the Ghostbloods. Shallan deeply respects Jasnah, so that would make working with the Ghostbloods extra painful. It'll be curious to see how they interact, as they have very different personalities and probably very different perspectives. Hopefully it'll provide some insight into spren culture, amongst other things. I'm signed up for this too

As a general comment... it's interesting to consider the foreshadowing. Ideally, the foreshadowing should be enough to be noticeable but not so obvious that there's no element of surprise. "Surprising yet inevitable" is a phase that's been used to describe this concept. I think this topic gets a lot of discussion because it was "surprising" (or rather, shocking). Yet, there is some very obvious foreshadowing - particularly Adolin's line in chapter 50 that "I'll have rammed my sword through your guy long before that, Sadeas". So why is it shocking? I think it's mostly because that Adolin has not been shown to suffer from violent outbursts or the like. Not even close. Actually, he's probably been the most consistently "nice guy" within the series - while he doesn't have the "highs" of some he has almost no "lows". He's generally been very even tempered and affable.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all the beta-readers for their efforts. The amount of work put in sounds immense.

I agree that "legal proceedings" are not what is going to decide Adolin's fate. We might not see anything substantial on that at all, though there should be discussion about the law in general. I'm not sure how much political bickering between Highprinces we'll see but I think the most significant things will be seen more privately. The way I see it, Dalinar hasn't realised just how big and complex a problem he is trying to solve with uniting people and fixing society. I think that will force him to confront his past actions and make him realise that he's got a long long way to go and that there's no quick and easy way to solve the problems that he's trying to tackle. He's going to have to think hard on what led to all this and how it can be prevented in future. He probably won't get to that immediately either. So I think we'll see Dalinar deeply conflicted, arguing with himself, arguing with others etc. I think legal proceedings (if any) and political bickering would be more of a side show. I have no idea if Adolin's fate will take the whole book to decide or what, though if I'm correct about the above then it should tie into Dalinar's overall arc in the book so it might take the whole book. I don't know how popular Sadeas's methods really all or how tightly the other Highprinces will cling to their backstabbing ways. Though it'd be somewhat predictable for many of them to oppose any changes because they'd feel like they were being undermined or weakened. It's not impossible that a group of the more bloodthirsty Highprinces will attempt to stage a coup or something one way or another.

I think it would be natural to expect small shifts in just about all the major characters - they all had moments towards the end of WoR that should change them. I don't know if there'll be any dramatic changes. Also, because the situation will have changed a lot, different aspects of the characters will be focused on - ie it might feel like a change even if there's not a real underlying change. Specifically for Shallan: She is a tricky one since we don't see any of her inner thoughts after her "big reveal" at the end of WoR. We just see a bit of her from Dalinar's perspective - "she looked far less ragged than she had when they’d first come to the city. Though their days here in Urithiru had been frantic, some good nights’ sleep had served them all quite well." I take this as a sign of her somewhat getting over her last POV scene. In the 5th section of WoR, we see almost no examples of Shallan's "wit" because of the stress she's under. I don't know if she'll feel similarly stressed early in Oathbringer - if we see her being generally witty then she's probably back to "normal". But surely there'll be some changes? I think so but they might be more on the inside, which would be typical for Lightweavers. She should be more self-aware (which might make her more sensitive to "lies") but possibly more relaxed. There's hints that she always knew she had killed her mother but just couldn't think about it - literally. Her mind would fuzz whenever she did. But now she should be mentally strong enough to accept what she did in the past. Since she'll now be able to think about it would that make her sadder? Or now that she's released from that problem, maybe she'll be more relaxed? There's various hints that she considers herself to be possibly crazy/insane/mad, and generally she has used self-depreciating comments/jokes a lot - will that go away or will it continue? Early in WoR we see Shallan thinking about how she used to be scared about various things but having confronted them in tWoK she feels stronger. I think that's one aspect of herself that should improve in Oathbringer - she'll be less afraid of what could happen to herself, that she probably won't mentally collapse and turn into some wretch. Definitely her circumstances have changed. She's now publicly a Radiant and people will treat her differently. Shallan being Shallan that'll change how she interacts with people. Before she was vaguely known about but relatively anonymous - now she'll be one of the most well known and recognisable people in Urithiru. Also, before she had relatively limited interactions with Dalinar, Navani and Renarin - now she should be meeting with them regularly. That did start to change towards the end of WoR of course, and should change much more during Oathbringer. She'll be less alone but have a whole set of new problems to deal with. I don't think her interactions with Pattern will change that much. She was definitely angry at him in her last POV scene but it would be unlike her to keep on being like that. Their interactions might not be completely back to normal at the start though. Pattern himself should also change a bit - probably becoming smarter. I was expecting that too. It felt like it had been "promised". I can see that it might not fit in particularly well with the epilogue as a whole though. But yeah... no excuses not to have interactions between spren in the next book. How much we'll get is another matter.