kari-no-sugata

Same here but obviously there's not one timezone that works for everyone. The weekly highstorm does disrupt work a bit but that's our responsibility really. Anyway, chapter predictions for this week: next Dalinar flashback, probably a real Dalinar chapter where we'll see how he reacts to regaining his memories and either a short Kaladin chapter (living with the not-so-Voidbringers) or a Shallan chapter (maybe the Ghostbloods will call after she used their mark, or maybe she'll be discussing her findings with Adolin, or maybe she'll visit the Kholins and get a surprise due to Dalinar's recent collapse)

From Words of Radiance, Chapter 44: For Oathbringer, Chapter 10: Kaladin has changed somewhat between WoR and OB in this regard, but he seems quite unwilling to even consider a having a romantic relationship with a lighteyes. Though we'll have to wait and see how serious he is about that if there is a real opportunity. Eg, even if he knows he does have feelings for a particular lighteyed woman, would he still deny those feelings when face-to-face with her because of his general feelings towards lighteyes? Here's a possible scenario: Kaladin returns to Urithiru and sees/hears about Amaram being there (which he should be given his last scene in WoR) and he goes undercover to investigate. Let's say that during such an investigation he meets Shallan (disguised as Veil). It's possible that Veil (or rather Shallan) would be interested in tracking down Amaram too (unless she's already heard that it was Kaladin who killed the Shardbearer who was probably Helaran), so they could team up. Let's say for the sake of example that Kaladin doesn't find out that Veil=Shallan for long enough that he develops feelings for Veil. How do you think he would react if he then found out that Veil=Shallan? Would he then decide to accept lighteyes as a romantic interest or would he reject Veil/Shallan... or something else?

A small thought but I don't remember anyone else mentioning it. Vedekar Perel was killed in the first (known) copy-cat murder. I would bet that Adolin blames himself for the death, partially. ie he would know that he hadn't killed Vedekar Perel but would likely believe that if he hadn't killed Sadeas then perhaps Vedekar Perel wouldn't have died. Maybe we'll see inside Adolin's head soon to get an idea. It would help explain why he's working hard on the case.

I think the simplest solution is that Shallan was being treated as or like a voidbringer and Dreder was a Vorin exorcist. Only relevant WoBs I can find are as follows: Well, a religious group would still count as a group We'll just have to wait and see...

I would say that the evidence to date shows that the vast majority of people benefit from Shallan's presence. Of course that, past performance is not a prediction of future results and all that. But, if you want to start with the assumption that she's now toxic then you can predict all sorts of toxic effects on those around her but that isn't much of an argument. I've posted enough about where I think Shallan is right now so I'm not going to say any more on that subject until we get some more chapters on her. So far at least in Oathbringer I don't see any negative side effects on those she's in some sort of relationship with but her interactions have been relatively limited so far.

Thanks, glad you liked it. It's been 3 years since I posted that but I've not really changed my mind much on that. I might express it slightly differently though. I think I've had different ideas about the last one as well.

Hard to say. We'll need more examples to be sure, though I think you are underplaying it. I think the minimum requirement for someone to become a Lightweaver is to be "broken" (or rather, cracked) and also that they are lying to themselves to deal with it. Quoting Pattern: Little Shallan was able to progress enough to get a Shardblade so maybe it's not that hard? Or maybe it's the first lies that are easier and it's the deep lies that are hard? Yeah, Shallan is definitely an extreme case and I've said this for years myself. As is Kaladin and likely Dalinar (and possibly others too) Anyway... I hope at least that my thoughts on the relative differences between how Lightweavers are affected by advancing and how other Orders are affected was interesting. Certainly in the case of Shallan it looks like the last Truth is going to be extra painful. I think she'll need some strong motivation to overcome it.

The copy-cat murders sound a bit too complicated for something like that... though it depends what you mean by the "protective system". Let's say the system involved some spren that got corrupted over time. That could be something advanced enough to do the copy-cat murders without it being an Unmade. Going a bit meta: If it is part of the building then considering that the ancient Radiants couldn't fix it then it would make it hard to justify Shallan fixing it. And if Shallan can't fix, how are they going to live there? (This is not to suggest that Shallan will need to "kill" the Unmade if there is one... being able to keep it away would be enough) I wonder what Renarin thinks. He's still lurking in the background despite being a Radiant. Should we get worried if he starts carving numbers again? If there is information left in Urithiru then I wonder why it was left? Since the place was seemingly slowly abandoned then the people probably took out anything valuable with them as they left. I don't think we've seen any evidence of a sudden withdrawal at least. So if there's anything left then I guess it would be: something that can't be moved (carvings on a wall?) or something that those remaining weren't aware of. So I doubt we're going to find a nice big library for example.

I can't remember if we ever got confirmation about Shallan's progression since the start of tWoK but I don't believe that the truths she spoke during tWoK countered towards her progression since she did not speak them to Pattern (I think of them as a temporary bond to a different Cryptic). I believe Shallan could have summoned her Shardblade at any time, which she wouldn't have been able to do if she hadn't progressed enough already. In other words, we don't know what Shallan's real 1st and 2nd Truth were (though it's also possible that Lightweavers do not have a fixed number of Truths)

Thanks for the lengthy reply @Mulk I don't think I explained my point very well. I'm not trying to make any arguments suggesting that certain characters haven't suffered significantly or about whether certain characters have suffered more or less than others or anything like that. I'm also not trying to suggest that swearing an Oath is cost-free or that the cost is small. My main point is this: when a Lightweaver swears a new Truth and advances there is an immediate and guaranteed cost in terms of mental pain. Just to be clear, I don't think the truths that Shallan spoke about in tWoK countered towards her progression since she didn't say them to Pattern, so the effect is different. With the other Orders, there is a guaranteed cost (a requirement to do certain things) but the effects are not immediate - how much it affects them would depend on the Oath and the situations that they encounter. Putting it another way: if you're a Lightweaver and you know that speaking your next Truth will bring you immediate and guaranteed pain, how willing would you be to do so? I'm not trying to suggest that the Oaths that other Orders swear are easy to deal with or that nobody would hesitate to swear them knowing the burden they would bring. Actually, long term, being a Lightweaver might be better if you can learn to deal with pain while for the other Orders the potential cost would be unchanging (though the actual cost would depend on the circumstances the individual encounters). My point about Kaladin wasn't to downplay the pain he went through, but rather that for the Orders that swear Oaths there is no guaranteed cost/pain leading up to swearing an Oath either - ie that his example was something that could happen but rarely and would depend upon the individual rather than the Order. There might be in individual circumstances (eg with Kaladin) but I think the typical experience of progression would be closer to Lift's. To summarise: I think all potential Radiants have gone through pain. To progress they will likely need to do a certain amount of soul-searching or struggle with certain issues and in some cases that could be very significant. Each time they progress there are certain costs and certain benefits. The difference for the Lightweavers is that the cost is immediate while for the others the cost is spread out and depends on the circumstances - for a Lightweaver on a deserted island the cost would be the same as if they were in a city but for other Orders the cost would probably be much smaller in such circumstances. Pattern suggested that Shallan could kill him to get over the pain. I wonder if that is a common enough problem for Lightweavers that he expected that it could happen in advance? If so that would definitely help my theory that perhaps on average the Lightweavers struggle with advancement more than other Orders. Hopefully as we get more info on other Orders and their typical Oaths we'll be able to get a clear idea of all this.

That's not how I read that Jasnah's comments. I read them more as challenging Kabsal's theory that cymatics were important to all the major cities. It might be that Urithiru has no mathematical pattern, though we'll have to wait and see. With regards to what Shallan feels, I initially thought it was simply one of physics - she was too close to the object given the size. However, Shallan clearly feels uncomfortable about the place in general. She was used to being indoors in Kharbranth though, so it's probably not that either. Lately I've started wondering if Shallan feels uncomfortable because there's something bad there (possibly an Unmade), given how she felt there was something wrong about her father (correctly as it turns out from a WoB). If that was their goal then wouldn't they have used a more direct method? On the more general point, I do think that it's worthwhile considering what caused Urithiru to be abandoned. It supposedly went into decline before the Recreance. However, I don't think we should assume that something unique to Urithiru caused the place to decline. For example, maybe there were tensions between various countries and many started closing their Oathgates to prevent a foreign invasion, which lead to less trade, which forced them to put up their tariffs and eventually making the place economically unsustainable. IIRC Brandon confirmed that Urithiru was genuinely protected but I couldn't find a clear WoB on it. Whatever protection it has/had I wouldn't assume that it would be perfect. Eg, maybe it was safe against Unmade if you knew how to do things properly and this knowledge has since been lost, allowing one to get in now. However, I don't have any particular problem with the idea that the original decline of the place is related to the current problem, but it would have to depend on the specifics - for example, if it was caused by an Unmade, would such a thing have simply stayed there doing nothing for such a long time? One thing that occurred to me is that Shallan's "main plot" seems likely to be focused on this. This is speculative but I tend to think of the Lightweavers as a sort-of "next generation bard" (or a significant re-imagining of the "bard" type role in fantasy) - they're rather multipurpose but they might be particularly important with regards to things like morale and mental health of the allies. Either way, I think she's the right person for the job of solving this problem. I've also wondered if there might be some "history" here - Shallan's life went to hell due to some actual and attempted murders, and we know that her father was under Odium's influence, so perhaps if there is a "Murder Unmade" here it actually influenced those past events as well (but we just never saw the copy-cat murders). So if Shallan found out she would be particularly motivated to do something about it and might help her to be a bit happier with herself.

Something that occurred to me recently... Shallan's story is more painful than I had expected so far. With the other Radiant Orders we'd seen, speaking an Oath doesn't have an immediate cost but it does have an immediate benefit. In Shallan's case there is an immediate cost as well and this seems likely to be the case in general for the Lightweavers - Pattern suggests as much. Maybe it could be argued that with the other Orders the cost comes before the Oath but that doesn't really feel like it from the examples we've seen (Kaladin struggled in WoR but didn't otherwise and Lift didn't struggle much). So it feels to me that it's harder and more painful for Lightweavers to progress than the other Orders that we've seen so far. If that's the case then perhaps the success rate of proto-Lightweavers becoming full Lightweavers is lower than the other Orders. (I'm not going to suggest it's the lowest since we've only seen a few orders and from Brandon's hints the Dustbringers seem like another special case)

Yup. I think a lot of this is down to the underlying feelings towards the character. Shallan isn't as popular as some and also has a strong tendency to give readers reasons to distrust her - ie she calls attention to her flaws more than others, though she also does things that are genuinely dubious (like all the major characters). So on average I think Shallan gets a more sceptical reception than the other major characters, other things being equal. In recent chapters we've seen two characters take a risk and step into the unknown in order to gain knowledge. Kaladin did something fairly conventional in such scenarios - surrender to the enemy. Shallan did something much less conventional given her knowledge and background. Arguably, neither risk seems necessary, but I suspect that in the long term both will get a pay off (though this is not to suggest that there were no better options). But the reception was very different (this is not to suggest that the risks and potential rewards were the same and that the scenarios are equivalent though). On another note: I was initially sceptical about Shallan's feelings about Urithiru having any deeper meaning... but after re-reading her flashback chapters and how often she comments about there being something wrong with her father (as if he was possessed or under an evil influence) and the suggestions in the most recent chapters that there's something uncanny here, maybe there's something to her feelings about the building.

Reading between the lines, I think it was quite clear in WoR that Shallan knew all this time (or at least for the last few years) that she had in fact killed her mother but wasn't really able to think about it (she would either avoid it or her mind would go blank). I think it's also clear that Shallan believed herself to be broken and that she didn't like herself. But, she had a bunch of comping mechanisms and she came across as being okay and maybe even normal. However, by speaking the Truth at the end of WoR the net effect of those coping mechanisms has been reduced - it's not that she has gotten "worse" but that her coping mechanisms have become weaker meaning that she is also being forced to confront her past, her pain and her fears more directly than before. In other words, some sunlight is showing in and clearing out some of the fog but the brightness is painful to her eyes. (I hope that makes some kind of sense) If she can properly deal with that then she'll be in a fundamentally better place. If not, then who knows what will happen. So I consider that exchange with Pattern to be her expressing a fear - that perhaps she is more messed up than she had previously thought. I would say this is a fear that she's not sure that she can trust her own memories, rather than her knowing she can't determine what she can trust and what she can't. She's effectively asking for reassurance that she's not THAT broken. I'm not sure if there's some particular reason why she fears this. I can't think of anything where she has in fact altered her memories rather than simply suppressed them. It's possible that her efforts with her personas are making her worry that maybe she can in fact genuinely trick herself into believing something that isn't true, or something along those lines. Yeah, she's not ready right now. Her relationship with Pattern seems to be pretty much back to how it was in WoR - even better in some ways since she's discussing some things about herself with Pattern more openly. One thing that concerns me is the state she'll be in when Adolin's little issue with Sadeas comes up. Shallan is very happy with her relationship with Adolin right now. Perhaps the worst case scenario is that she loses the emotional support she got from the relationship, becomes increasingly isolated and critical of herself etc and it pushes her over the edge. Perhaps the best case scenario is that she realises that she's not alone - that there's other people who were also faced with a situation where they had to do something even if it could be considered "illegal" or "wrong".

As far as I remember, there's no WoB that contradicts the idea that different Orders or even different members of the same Order could have a different number of Oaths/Truths to reach maximum level. It does seem particularly likely with the Lightweavers - it somewhat strains belief that they'd all have a conveniently consistent number of Truths to tell. Regarding Shallan, Brandon did say she went up a level at the end of WoR but yeah it's possible she's simply gotten back to where she used to be at age 11 in terms of her Nahel bond strength. However, I don't think that it means that none of her new Truths count - we know that the one at the end of WoR counts as a Truth because she can't forget it.

I disagree - that means she fears losing control or going insane (not for the first time either). There is a huge difference between fearing something and that something actually happening. Shallan thinking she's Veil and Shallan is fake would certainly massively damage the bond, no doubt about that. Though such an arc would be rather boringly predictable I fear after Kaladin's arc in WoR, and Shallan has already done this herself in the past. I certainly agree that Shallan needs to know the truth. I've posted this already - see my comment about the Truths being an "anchor" above. I think saying she "has to learn to endure the pain" is fine. I think there's too much emphasis on Shallan having to not do this or that. ie rather than "avoid the negative" she has to "find the positive" - eg, having more pride in herself like I suggested previously. Back in WoR Wit/Hoid said this: That probably applies just as well here. About truth and lines. About making a path for the light. And about the things she's fighting not being natural. If she's confident enough and she likes being Shallan enough then she'll probably be okay. It's just as well that her personas also have limitations - if they were everything Shallan was (in terms of abilities) and more then that certainly would be dangerous. If the thing in Urithiru is an Unmade then she might need to reach the next level very quickly in order to fight it.

When Shallan is doing Soulcasting etc in tWoK she is talking to Cryptics who are not Pattern. Shallan had a Shardblade so she was already high level enough for such things but she had shut out Pattern, almost killing him. I'd guess that the Cryptics were trying to "reboot" her link to Pattern by trying to get her to use stormlight. So I'd say that the "truths" she spoke in tWoK did not count as "advancement" but did start to restore her link to Pattern. PS I posted some general thoughts on Shallan here:

Maybe I'm too optimistic about Shallan but so far I don't see her as having gotten worse. The difference compared to WoR is that she can no longer (mostly) hide from her pain. She's being forced to deal with it. The pain that would once snuff out her entire mind is right there and cannot be ignored. It hurts. While her personas relieve her from the pain, she seems to be using them in moderation, which is fine. Overall, it seems to me that Shallan is facing her pain and facing her fears while before she tried to ignore them. I'd call that an improvement, though there are some problematic parts. If we consider Shallan in the past... Shallan 6 months after her mother's death: 1 year after her mother's death, her mind still regularly goes blank but to her it's "just one of those things". She also sees delusions: 1.5 years ago: The last one hurts me the most to be honest. She has practically become a lie. Almost completely shut down all independent thought. Almost never takes off the mask. With her current personas she can take them off easily. She's in control (or rather, she actually slips back to Shallan fairly easily). The worry I have about her personas is perhaps a bit different to most: Shallan tends to put things on a pedestal and she's doing that with her personas. Veil is not "just an older darkeyed version of Shallan" she's a hard and tough woman who's totally gung-ho. A real person who acted like Veil would definitely be crazy but to Shallan this is a kind of idealised person who has no "real" flaws. Brightness Radiant goes in the opposite direction - someone calm, logical and proper. I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan starts creating a more idealised version of Radiant as well. So I worry about her desire to perfect her personas, making them more extreme and less human. Also, the "better" she makes them the more she'll compare them to herself and consider herself lacking, I'd guess - she needs to take more pride in herself. Well, there's all sorts of ways she could go too far. But I wouldn't say that's happened yet. I think some people are way too eager to label what she's doing as multiple personality disorder or the like.

I mentioned this in the main thread but I'll add it here just in case. In chapter 18: "Weeks" plural was surprising for me. Shallan is not the most reliable though so it could just be hyperbole. I don't remember the Highstorms re-starting yet for example. If I remember things correctly, they got to Urithiru in the middle of the Weeping (which is 4 weeks or 20 days) and Sadeas was killed after about 5 days. So from there it should be one week to the end of the Weeping. That being said, with everything that has been built already it does feel like there has been quite a bit of time passing. The exact passage of time does feel rather vague though.

To be honest, I'm not sure we know 2 or 3 - "Killed father" was not spoken to Pattern but another Cryptic. Shallan was level 3 all this time since she could summon her Shardblade. Therefore, we don't know 2 and 3. I think.

I've not read all the posts about this but one idea I had about Dalinar being about to hear that name is that he was holding stormlight at the time and that interfered with the curse. If you think about it, blocking someone's name sounds like an active boon/curse. It's dynamically interfering with how his brain/spirit processes the info. In which case, if something "jams" the boon/curse then it would not work. Perhaps holding the stormlight did that.

Yes, Shallan should have one Truth to go if we understood Brandon correctly. She might need it to confront the copy-cat murderer. Pattern says: I think it has to be something really deeply buried within her. I don't think this Truth could be something that occurs since the start of her story in tWoK. I've posted some very highly speculative ideas on her final Truth.

I could see Aimians not wanting the Oathgate to open... but, cremlings would really stand out in Urithiru. So any hints of them in Urithiru would be a red flag. First question would by "why this method"? The method is really creepy. Why a copy-cat murder? They shouldn't be friends of Odium but the method "feels" very Odium-like to me. Second question would be "what is their end-game with these"? Are they trying to creep the people out to make them leave Urithiru?

Another theory: the copy-cat murder strikes exactly 24 hours after the original. If so, that could possibly cause problems for Adolin as they might be able to finger him based on the narrower time-of-death.

A little thing I noticed: Has it really been "weeks" already? I don't remember the Highstorms re-starting yet for example. If I remember things correctly, they got to Urithiru in the middle of the Weeping (which is 4 weeks or 20 days) and Sadeas was killed after about 5 days. So from there it should be one week to the end of the Weeping. That being said, with everything that has been build already it does feel like there has been quite a bit of time passing. The exact passage of time does feel rather vague though. On different note: Notice that Shallan tossed in a joke despite being quite deep into Veil. Earlier on just one drink of alcohol was enough to knock her out of Veil - there's still some way to go before Shallan can reliably and deeply become these personas.