FeatherWriter

Gotta say, I like that the idea of "honorspren" referring to a group of spren or being a category rather than a specific type is gaining steam. I've held this little theory for over two years now, but I've never really been able to get anyone else behind it. Maybe "honorspren" a title, or a supercategory with more specific types beneath it, or perhaps a regular spren becomes an honorspren somehow, but it's definitely a theory that I espouse. (I almost said "headcanon" oops. Gotta use the right terms over here.) If this turns out to be the case, I am definitely going to say that I called it.

That's the way I've interpreted it. Szeth has been ordered to kill successors. Makes me wonder how he has time to do all of this though. As I undersant it, Roshar's a pretty large continent. Is he really jumping around all these places to keep killing everyone he's supposed to be killing?

I don't think I can agree with that. We're talking about a major level of trust. At the end of the book, I'd say Kaladin's view on Dalinar is "I think it's possible that you might not be a horrible person like I was assuming but I'm doubtful." That's not exactly the kind of relationship in which Kaladin would give him an incredibly invaluable weapon. It's going to take a long time for that relationship to gain trust. Not to mention, Kaladin sees a lot of similarities between Dalinar's reputation and Amaram's. He has decided, unquestionably, that it is the same situation, that Dalinar is corrupt to the core and just hides it well. Everytime someone brings up Dalinar around him, Kaladin immediately thinks of Amaram - as if he's "citing his sources" on why Dalinar can't be trusted. That isn't the sort of worldview that one breaks down based on one experience of honor. Kaladin really trusted Amaram and thought he was a good person, and he was betrayed in a very deep and scarring way. That's not the sort of thing you get over and start to trust anyone again, even if they haven't given you a specific reason to mistrust. Kaladin's worldview for most of the book is "all lighteyes are corrupt and some are better at hiding it than others." Kaladin has decided that Dalinar is just like other lighteyes and he's just waiting for the other shoe to drop, the betrayal and the corruption to be shown. He thinks Dalinar is probably exactly like Amaram, just maybe a little better at hiding it. Even when he sees Dalinar start to show honor, Kaladin is suspicious, looking for the trick and the lie. I think that a healing process of this has begun, but it's going to take a long time. Kaladin shares some traits with early Vin here, in that they both believe that betrayal is an inevitable conclusion. (Though Kaladin's "paranoia" is specific to lighteyes, whereas Vin is mistrustful of everyone.) It takes a lot of effort to heal from this kind of hurt. How long does it take Vin to start trusting Kelsier? To believe that Elend isn't going to abandon her? And Vin hadn't really seen someone who really acted honestly, whereas Kaladin definitely saw Amaram being honorable - until the defining moment when he wasn't. I'd actually recommend a critical reading of Chapter 73 in the totality of the passage that concerns Dalinar and Kaladin. Kaladin is almost hostile towards him, never using honoriffics, never saying "sir" or "Brightlord." His dialogue is curt and casual, certainly not the way a subordinate would normally talk to a superior. He pushes against Dalinar with this, as if seeing if he can get his honor to crack. Kaladin's testing Dalinar, trying to see how far Dalinar's goodness really goes, and I think that's going to be an aspect of their relationship for a long time. While Kaladin is beginning to trust Dalinar, it's going to take a lot more than he's seen so far to be sure. And I think the idea that Kaladin would come to the point where he would have enough trust to be able to give a Shardblade to Dalinar anytime soon is not not a view that I think conforms to canon. Aaand, this turned into an essay. Whoops. Get me talking about Kaladin and I'm sure to get carried away.

You guys are probably thinking longer-game than I am. For a while I think Kaladin's going to be pretty mistrustful of Dalinar just on the fact that he's a lighteyes. There's a lot of character growth that needs to happen here, and I think it'll be a large part of Kaladin's character arc. Giving the blade to Moash? I think that's feasible—though again that's exactly what he tried to do before and it turned out horribly—but giving it to Dalinar? That's not something I'd expect Kaladin to be able to do for a long time. That's a major step of trust, and Kaladin's pretty damaged when it comes to lighteyes still. If somehow Kaladin did end up offering a Shardblade to Dalinar, I actually think Dalinar might refuse it. He's stated that as he assumes the role of Highprince of War he's going to not be in the field quite as much. He might insist that Kaladin keep it for himself—or default that he give it to Moash—because I don't think Dalinar really wants to be a Shardbearer anymore. He gave his Plate to Renarin already; he might end up giving a Blade to Renarin if he had access to it. (Oh Harmony, my baby as a full Shardbearer. Just sec, I'm tearing up over here.) EDIT: Also, ignore the egregious em-dash abuse going on over here. Kurk just showed us how to do it in another thread and I'm reveling in my em-dash ability now. Hehehe.

Oh dang. Em-dashes are like my fave punctuation but I usually just totally wuss out and use the regular dash outside of Word where it does it for me. It's like a parentheses for places that you're not supposed to put parentheses. (I'm looking at you, all of my English papers. You are filled with em-dashes for this very reason.)

Aww.. yep. Sounds like a good example of a kismesis, though with a rather tragic ending. :C (Maybe I should reread Elantris one of these days.

I'm not familiar with those characters... *quickly googles* Oh goodness, they're from Elantris it seems, and while I've read the book twice I still feel very unfamiliar with it. After a quick spin about the Coppermind, I have come to the conclusion that, WOW, I APPARENTLY DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT ELANTRIS. Roial's article says that they were long-time rivals and friends (which sounds kismesis-y to me) and that Ahan felt very guilty over Roial's death. I was hesitant at first, since getting a rival killed is outside the spirit of kismesissitude (one wants a lasting relationship, not death) - but the fact that he felt guilty about it makes me think it's a viable option. I wish I remembered more about Elantris, Harmony dangit. From what I can tell, Roial ♠ Ahan seems canon!

Ah! Those little symbols are cool! How'd you do that? And if the Cosmere is keeping you and Reality TV apart, then you've used it correctly! (Nicely done!) Glad you liked it. I was a little worried that I might have been overwhelming there...

Ooh, new to the shipping front! Let me help! When most people talk about "shipping" they do mean romantic relationships. In the original analysis back-and-forth, both of the ships, Shallarin and Kalarin, were being considered as romantic relationships. In most cases, that's what people are going to be talking about. Romance, kissing, falling "in love" so to speak. Most people stop there. That's shipping in a nutshell. You can stop here and consider yourself knowledgeable on shipping. .... .... But if this really is your kind of thing, there can be more. With the rise in popularity of Homestuck, lots of people have started using the four romantic quadrants (well, three of them at least, one doesn't really get used at all) to designate other types of relationships too. On tumblr, there's A LOT of overlap between Homestucks and the Cosmere fandom, so we like to use their terms to talk about the Cosmere. Because why not? It's fun! Homestuck has an alternate culture that has four kinds of romance, where they use four symbols (the four playing card suits) to differentiate between four very different kinds of romance. So, where "normal shipping" would just use the heart symbol to be "love," the quadrants also offer relationships based on the symbols for diamonds, clubs, and spades as well. (With... various applicability to other fandoms.) I used this terminology above, when I said that I ship Kaladin and Syl "pale." That's Kaladin <> Syl Explanation of the four quadrants under the cut, just because I don't want this to get all long and technical if people aren't interested. Or you can click here, but it's kinda long and hard to understand. (Also, some slight cosmere spoilers below.) Did you read all that? Have a cookie. You deserve it. So, to answer your question Alaxel, you could say that you ship Kaladin and Renarin "pale." Kaladin <> Renarin. (I think this could be a cute option for them too, though I think Adolin might get jealous. He's pretty protective of his little brother.) TL;DR - I brought in shipping quadrants and it got complcated and I'm sorry. Just straight up romantic love works for ships too if you don't want to read all that.

EDIT: INSTA-NINJA'D BY KURK. I'll buy. Certainly wouldn't be the strangest magic system we've seen thus far. I'll go ahead and buy that one though. Brandon did say the "Three Metalic arts" are in use there, right? We've had a lot of Stormlight, so I'll flip back to Scadrial. How about this: No one on Scadrial will ever figure out that Wax and Wayne's names together are punny.

Slowly slowly, the Shardhunt pulls the lurkers into the light. Glad to have you around!

Glad to have you around, Luft! As for that WoR wait we've got ahead of us, in my case it's less of a "patient" wait as a "clawing-at-my-face-and-crying-over-fictional-characters-at-odd-hours-of-the-morning" wait. You know, the life of a Sanderfan, right?

By the Survivor, I love using these storming swears. So much more fun than regular old swear words (and, Harmony's Forearms, they're more forum friendly too!) I still use "Light" from the Wheel of Time series, and I'll admit OMH has pretty much completely replaced OMG in my vocab.

Nice name! We're glad to have you here, Kaladin!

In regards to Kaladin and the possibility of him obtaining a Shardblade, it presents an interesting character conflict for him. While there are issues with this theory, namely that I think Szeth's arc hasn't had anywhere near enough growth to end with him dying at Kaladin's hands, I think it would represent a major point of conflict if Kaladin were presented with the option of taking another Shardblade. He's got reasons to go both ways. On one hand, Shardblades are the tools of the lighteyes and Syl has mentioned that she dislikes them. Kaladin refusing to take Amaram's Blade is one of the things that first drew Syl to him, and therefore one of the reasons that he has his powers. I don't think Kaladin winning a Blade by killing a Shardbearer is the right choice for him as a person. If Kaladin is going to get a Shardblade, the only healthy way for him to do that would be some other way - possibly the way that the Knights Radiant got their Blades. I'm thinking they may be created through something to do with the Nahel bond, something Syl would help with, and I know there's been speculation about the possibility of a Shardspear. However, let's say Kaladin kills a Shardbearer in an act of protecting Dalinar or someone else - whether this Shardbearer is Szeth or not - and he's presented with the same choice that he faced so long ago. There's lots of reasons why he shouldn't take it, but could he really listen to them? After how horribly giving up the Blade he'd won went last time? I don't think he's going to be able to trust any of the lighteyes enough to give it to one of them (though Kalarin shippers might argue that there are other possibilities), and trying to give it to one of his teammates is what he tried last time. With Amaram coming to the Shattered Plains, I highly doubt Kaladin's going to be willing to forget that whole experience. Faced with the pressures of his history, I can see a major pressure that Kaladin would take this Blade, if only to avoid repeating the past. It's a fascinating character conundrum and one that I can't completely decide where I think he'd fall on it. Conflicts of character like this are so engaging to me, and I'd love to see Kaladin being confronted with this choice, if only to see what Brandon would do with it. Perhaps this could open the door for Kaladin to reveal his history with Amaram to Dalinar or Bridge 4. They'd be more likely to believe that he'd won a Shardblade and given it up before if they had seen him do so again. Things to think about...

I can't do anything but pale for Kasyl/Syladin. Kaladin<>Syl is the way to go. Definitely not a romantic sort of relationship for me. (Also, it appears that the tumblr fandom was mostly unaware that I had posted this... until Peter tweeted about Megan's liveblogs. Cue entire fandom freaking out...)

Tvlakv? I'll buy, if only because I want more chances to say his name aloud! Two English non-standard affricates in a name? Sign me up! Axies the Collector will meet up with one of the main viewpoint characters. IE, we'll see him outside of an Interlude.

Hey, the fun in these ships right now is all in the potential! Neither of the camps has had any canon interaction thus far, so it's all just speculation and theories (which, as we all know, everyone loves a good theory.) Hopefully that will change with WoR, but until then, just got to be patient. For those interested in seeing the beginnings of how I imagine the Shallarin ship possibly going, I've got a fic going on for it. /shamelessly self-promotes own writing. (Also, yes. I pretty much upvote all the Shallarin posts, whoops.)

(Something that might be hindering your movement on tumblr, those little "Read More" buttons. In the case of Tumblr, reblogging a post - which is the main way that someone replies to add comments - puts the original post above what the reblogger has written. In the case of very long posts, the original creator might put a Read More break, so that they don't have posts that are super crazy long. They're not like spoiler tags usually, where you have to open them to see what everyone says, they're usually links to the previous parts of the conversation. In the case of these, Kogi linked to each of the posts sequentially, so you shouldn't need to go back to previous ones to see what was said before. You're already getting them in order, and the entirety of the response is there and open for you to see.) Anyway, Re: your actual comments.Yes, I think it's pretty clear on both sides that the ardentia is simply not a viable option for dear, sweet Renarin. As you've said, his views on masculinity simply aren't compatible with the kind of loss of agency and masculinity that ardents undergo. It's been mentioned in canon that Renarin has refused entering the ardentia, possibly on multiple occasions: The way the two shipping camps then deal with this issue of masculinity is what goes into our division. I, as a Shallarin shipper, said it this way: "My ideal character arc for both Shallan and Renarin involves each using the skills of the other gender to fulfill the ideals of their own." So, for Renarin, I want to see him learning to use the feminine arts in masculine ways (and conversely, Shallan learning to use the masculine arts in feminine ways). I think this could be a really cool character arc for both of them, and seeing them go through it together and grow as a couple in these very interesting ways is something I think would be awesome! The Kalarin camp believes (keep in mind that I'm quoting my opposition, so I might get this wrong) that Renarin's deep insecurity over his masculinity will cause him to shun and abhor any idea which would make him seem more feminine, such as joining the ardentia - or as I would have him do, learn the feminine arts in secret and use them in new ways. They see a parallel for growth between Renarin's insecurity - which could draw him towards someone who exhibits the masculine ideal, like Kaladin - and Kaladin's desire for trustworthy lighteyes - which could draw him to a kindhearted person, like Renarin. There's lots more reasons behind the ships, but in regards to Renarin's masculinity, I believe that's where the two camps fall! (I'm glad to hear you're leaning towards Shallarin! I'm always a fan of convincing people towards my ship!)

I've only managed to get ahold of the first book, though not for lack of want! It's a great read, light and funny and a wonderful way to spend an afternoon or an evening! (As a major member of the Infinity Blade fandom, I would also highly recommend Brandon's Infinity Blade novellas, though... perhaps not without being acquainted with the story first....)

I'm gonna go Sell. I think Kaladin's going to be forced to reveal his powers long before he reaches a point of trust with Dalinar where he'd willing share that. Amaram and Kaladin's meeting will be non-violent.

You guys are right, about quite a bit of this! (And it's incredibly exciting that Peter, you're interested in our little corner of the fandom!) The problem with the tumblr fandom is that it isn't really a set "place" in which we can talk about the Cosmere, but rather a collection of individuals who all just happen to talk about the Cosmere among ourselves - among other things and fandoms as well. I've got a bit of a list of some of our more active members that can be found here, though none of us are really dedicated Cosmere blogs, so we post about all kinds of stuff. At the moment I know of only two tumblr blogs which are Cosmere-exclusive, the 17th Shard official tumblr, (moderated by KChan) and the Adonalsium tumblr, (moderated by me). Usually if there are really interesting things going on in the tumblr fandom, such as this, I'll try to find a way to mirror them over here so people can see! I hope that helps! EDIT: Oh, more people posted while I had this up and I didn't see! @Kurk: Yep, same Kogi. She and I are both pretty protective of Renarin now, and I believe she was led to ask the question because of her roommate, Ellie (swamp-spirit) who displays many similar traits with Renarin. Ellie is now helping Brandon with writing Renarin's character, if I recall correctly, and will probably be mentioned in the Acknowledgements page of Words of Radiance, I believe! As for the Friday Night Cosmere Chats, they can be hard to grab unless you know what you're looking for. FNCC's start in the evenings (American timezones) and someone usually posts a link in the #brandon sanderson tag or the #cfsbf tag, as well as the tags for the various books. (I've been told #mistborn and #elantris are pretty consistently tagged for FNCCs.) If you can't find it around there, send an ask to me or another member of the fandom and we can probably shoot you a link if one's up. I usually try to reblog the link to Adonalsium, but I'm not terribly consistent (sorry!) In regards to keeping up with the fandom, outside of following our most active members directly, I tend to track a lot of tags to see when people create new posts about the Cosmere. I've got an extension for tumblr that shows me what tags I'm tracking and notifies me if there's anything new posted to them. For reference, I'm tracking mostly the names of my blogs and Cosmere terms:

For those wanting to know more about the "Great Cosmere Shipping War," I went ahead and made an actual post about it here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4350-a-bit-of-character-analysis-from-the-flipside-of-the-fandom/. So, all discussion about this should probably head over there! (Poor Warbreaker forum! I did not mean to throw you off topic so quickly!)

Recently, one of our tumblr members, tinandpewterstrength, finished Way of Kings and issued an open call for anyone with ships (aka, those of us who see good potential for relationships between characters) to try to convince her which characters she should be shipping. Pretty much, she's looking at me - the captain of the Shallarin (Shallan/Renarin) camp, and Kogiopsis - the leader of the Kalarin (Kaladin/Renarin) camp. What started as a simple pair of opposing arguments has blossomed into some incredibly rich character and motivation analysis about all three of these characters involved. While I know that most of the theorizing here tends to be Realmatic, I figured perhaps there are some literary analysts like myself who might enjoy reading some theories that have to do with character development and narrative arcs instead! Or you know, those just curious what the other side of the fandom devotes their time and energy to. Kogiopsis recently created a wonderful guide to this back and forth of analyses, so I'm going to use her post to adapt. Pretty much of the credit for this organization and posting of this goes to her! It's a lot to read, but it's good stuff! The analyses at the beginning are mostly just about shipping, but as the discussion goes on, it becomes more and more pure character analysis (which is super awesome). Cosmere fandom is still the best fandom. Megan, the original prompter of all this essay writing, eventually responds to the posting of this guide, here: Now, that's a lot of writing for anyone to sift through, so good luck and congrats to anyone who looks through it! However, I know there were some who were interested in stuff like this and didn't realize that our fandom had a side like this. So, I wanted to at least make people aware that things like this are being written out there! For the more literary types like me, this is the kind of thing I love, and if it were happening elsewhere, I know I'd want to know! I hope you all enjoy this look at what the tumblr fandon's been up to!