dvoraen

What I don't want the most: Little to no info about the Unmade. >.> *drops mic*

RE: Bolded Not necessarily. We don't know the full extent of the Unmade's powers, particularly how far Ba-Ado-Mishram's influence had spread when she was Connected to the singers before her capture. Not only that, but we know next to nothing about Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish, and I suspect we have not seen everything Yelig-nar is capable of doing either. For example, how many hosts can Yelig-nar have at one time? Can he choose how fast he consumes one, allowing for sleepers to travel across the world? We have not seen the sapient Unmade do a whole lot, which I find very curious if not deliberate. Sja-anat was said to be the most feared by the Radiants, yet she didn't really do a whole lot in Oathbringer to validate that claim. Knowing that she can spy on you with a shadow is neat and all, but I don't know that I'd call it fearsome on its own. There's just so much we don't know about the Unmade.

Yet a spren caught in a gemstone is required for "modern*" fabrial science, for the fabrial to actually do anything. I think there's a very good chance a painspren is required for a painrial to cause and reduce pain. The point I was trying to make, though, is that there have been hints that everyday spren such as flamespren and the like can evoke an effect on the Physical Realm under the right circumstances, presumably via bonding combined with a source of Investiture. Just look at the entire Singer race, skyeels and greatshells for proof of that. The Singers generally can't transform into everyday forms without bonding a spren or the Unmade getting involved. And so, based on those hints, I think it stands to reason that Sja-anat touching and controlling a lesser spren could very well allow her to generate those effects. Her touch for a fact creates a bond of sorts (or else she couldn't control spren she touches) and an Unmade certainly qualifies as a source of Investiture, so I don't think it's farfetched to say Sja-anat can Do Things(tm) with lesser spren besides spy with them. * I refer to the fabrials we've seen on screen the most, the type that Navani's involved in creating, not the fabrials such as Soulcasters.

When it comes to Sja-anat, I think her ability to corrupt spren and gain control over them is the very relevant point for why she was so feared, but for reasons that relate to what Kaladin did to repel the highstorm. I don't think it's farfetched to say that he bonded with those windspren and used them to briefly control the wind in his small area of influence. Now imagine Sja-anat doing similar, except using any kind of spren that are nearby. Bunch of painspren nearby? Kind of hard to fight if they're being touched then used against you like with Navani's painrial. This line of thinking is why I'm wondering if the Radiants lured all of the Unmade* to Shinovar to try and capture them: because of Sja-anat being too strong except in a place where spren typically don't manifest. Another point, though this one is much more tenuous, is the possibility that Sja-anat can corrupt and control Investiture in general. If she can corrupt a spren, and spren are basically instantiations of Investiture, why not the more general form as well? If she can actually interfere with and/or consume their magic, then regurgitate it, that's pretty scary stuff because they'd effectively be powerless against Sja-anat. * Remember Shallan's impressions about Re-Shephir: "She'd felt isolation and loneliness from Re-Shephir, a sense of being torn away while the others escaped" (OB Ch 32), implying the Unmade were together at the time the Radiants managed to imprison Re-Shephir.

Personally, I do think he was close to that with Nergaoul, but not necessarily in the Nahel bond sense. There are a couple oddities with Dalinar and Nergaoul that don't align with some of what we've seen in bonds with spren, and Brandon has flat out said that Dalinar has a personal connection with Nergaoul which was "very important" in capturing Nergaoul.

Presumably. We don't have any reason to think she was lying about how "we've never managed to Enlighten such powerful spren before." It's entirely possible that Glys is the first higher spren to become corrupted, and that led to other things.

Let's also not forget the fact that the Vorin church is extremely unlikely to believe that Taln is the Herald of War, especially with those dark eyes of his and presumably no way to prove it (to say nothing about his mental state). Even if he had his Honorblade, they would likely decry him as a Voidbringer or "just a Radiant" simply because he didn't fit the current narrative for how the Heralds are supposed to be. So yeah, I'd be surprised if Dalinar had anything less than a sheer cliff wall to scale, in terms of getting the rest of Roshar to truly listen to what he has to say. He has very little in his arsenal that is guaranteed to get through to others except for his tenacity, really. Matters at Thaylen City will help, but it is pretty much a given that "the Alethi" tried to take it over. There is still plenty of debris to dig through, literally and figuratively.

Copy-pasta from my reddit post because I'm interested in what people think on this: => Is Steris an aluminum or duralumin misting? <=

I'm not sure if this is a typo, considering Kholinar had corrupted spren all over the place. p716 (hardcover) "...Hungerspren buzzed about the heads of the people, like black specks..." versus p212 (hardcover) "A single hungerspren started flitting about his head, like a tiny brown fly..." Other mentions of hungerspren (such as p47 softbound in Ch 2 of The Way of Kings) also describe them as brown.

One of my landlords was here the other day because my shower drain was leaking onto the floor below (fixed now, yay). He spies my copy of Oathbringer and gives me a thumbsup. That was surreal.

I don't have a huge amount to say on this subject, except that I think Dalinar is only holding the part of Honor that identifies as Unity, which I suspect is why he has the ability to Connect all three Realms into a Perpendicularity at-will in the first place (within reason, since it tires him apparently). I've been kind of wondering if Tanavast set up ten Splinters of Honor that each have a specific attribute, meaning I think he was able to control how the Shard would Splinter into what exists in present day, and linked those Splinters to the Ideals of each Order somehow (enabling a measure of control over who can get them). Think back on when Shallan and Renarin were talking about cymatics, in the latter part of WoR, and how the hypothetical plate would break along preexisting cracks when subjected to the process. In other words, I just see Dalinar as being a Bondsmith++, to use C/C++ terminology, in that his ability to Connect is comparatively stronger, but still within the general bounds of what Bondsmiths can do. Whether it can progress beyond that to a full Ascension to Honor... I haven't the foggiest, though the name Unity is telling in its own way. The interesting thing is the fact that Odium called it an Ascension, yet Dalinar is still very clearly limited by his Physical self. I'm inclined to say he's 10% Honor at most, which is still quite a step up from others.

Not necessarily. Did Preservation (the Vessel) bless people who entered the Well of Ascension? I didn't get the impression that Leras ever did, rather than the power itself doing its own thing for the person who claimed it. Cultivation's Perpendicularity is likely leaking into the water of that one hot spring in the Horneater Peaks and Investing people, and Rock's superhuman abilities relate to that. He has flat out said he's been close to if not completely exposed to Cultivation's Perpendicularity, even though he doesn't call it that.

I think Jasnah would see it for the good of Alethkar, considering the steps she's taken to protect her family from losing the monarchy and other matters. Adolin refused it, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she basically went full Mr. Spock mode about her coronation being the logical choice when the matter was brought to her. I don't think Jasnah is going to forsake her scholarly activities any more than Shallan would give up drawing. As far as Jasnah studying the cosmere, I think that's more a Willshaper's thing than an Elsecaller's. Elsecaller make it easier, but Willshapers *do* have Transportation (although we don't know if or how it acts differently for them). Jasnah would certainly veer towards an arcanist, though, in studying Surgebinding powers, the Unmade, and especially what's happening with Renarin (this I fully expect to happen in book 4, which should have some interesting revelations). Also, I'm wondering if Timbre's bond with Venli will cause some exemption to the rules. If Timbre is bound to Venli's gemheart, does that override the tether to the Rosharan system?

There's undoubtedly another way for Voidbinding, since I don't think we have reason to think Sja-anat is lying about not being able to Enlighten higher spren in the past. The fact that Voidbinding is known to Vorin areas as "bad" means it was invoked in some way other than what Renarin is going through. Now, if you could have a Nahel bond equivalent with a higher Voidspren to get Voidbinding in the past, that's another story. I still hold to the idea that the Unmade are the primary path to Voidbinding, but some of my thoughts on that make the assumption that some of the second-hand information we've gotten is correct. ("To see the future originates with the Unmade..." along with "Voidbinding was a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try and divine the future.")

I wouldn't be surprised if Tien's 'lie' was as simple as "I'll never be like my brother." In other words, I think Tien and Elhokar had a little bit in common.

I really like this idea, but I can't help but wonder if Nale swore more of a "greater good" type of Ideal, since the meaning of "whose greater good?" can change from humans to Dawnsingers to both to neither.

Ditto, and I'll wager that spy's name was Meridas Amaram.

And more, now that the Diagram effectively bound Odium from directly interfering with Dalinar. I'm curious to see how much this will matter, and whether Dalinar will find out about it to take advantage of this fact.

There's another factor about the Narak remnants as well: Did Renarin see anything about Rlain's future? Renarin made it a point to talk with Rlain, and we have absolutely no idea what exactly they talked about. Given how Rlain seems to appreciate their talks, and his conspicuous absence, has made me suspicious about whether or not Renarin saw something that Rlain took action on. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that Rlain knows about Renarin's sight, and that the listeners are nowhere as prejudiced against precognition as Vorin areas are; their songs have an undertone of this acceptance already (the one about the nightforms).

My thought about the heartbeat was that it was both unusual and suggestive of an entity becoming more... awake if that makes sense. It is a leap of logic, but why else would there suddenly be a heartbeat sound coming from the presumed-Unmade unless it was "stirring" so to speak. With respect to Dalinar and the visions, I admit I had completely forgotten the WoB's about Gavilar seeing visions from the Stormfather as well. I don't think it completely undermines my claim that Gavilar was seeing other things pertaining to the future as well, because the visions don't answer how Gavilar knew the Everstorm would fix the issue caused by Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture. Unless Brandon omitted some content from them on purpose, the visions Honor made don't explain how Gavilar knew about the link between Ba-Ado-Mishram and the singers. He had some pretty specific, privileged information in his conversation with Eshonai, and between that and "how dark he'd gotten" (Navani's assessment of his character), I think it's pretty clear Gavilar was being influenced by Odium either by Odium directly speaking to him, which is possible, or through one of the Unmade. My thought is on the latter, given that it seems to be a fact that Gavilar had discovered and found an Unmade.

Disclaimer: This is a very large house of cards, I realize that, so please do not blow it down too forcefully. It’s also somewhat disorganized as it’s a mishmash of random thoughts that I’m trying to make into a jigsaw puzzle. I'm posting this because I finally had an epiphany about one part that was bothering me and so here I am with a start to the discussion! Gavilar Kholin is one of the more mysterious characters, even long after his assassination in The Way of Kings. Not only was he a member of a group working to return the Voidbringers to Roshar, but he knew of other secretive groups and their leaders, in addition to having access to supernatural knowledge and peculiarly Invested spheres. So let’s take a trip into some of those mysteries and happenings and theories, starting off with this: Gavilar Kholin could see the future. From the way he speaks, it seems clear to me that Gavilar Kholin has seen the Everstorm. In the visions shown to us that Dalinar has seen, the Everstorm is not directly present in any of them. Honor mentions it, but we never see its effect on the world or the parshmen. The complete destruction of the world, yes, but not the Everstorm. Even when Dalinar goes outside the boundaries of the vision, all he sees is the light representing Odium, and the Champion with Nine Shadows. Is it possible that Gavilar himself isn't seeing the future, but rather visions that Odium had sent him? Yes, it is, as Meridas Amaram was proven to be in direct contact with Odium as well. Could it be the Stormfather sending them, based on Taravangian's interlude? I used to think so, but the fact that the Stormfather confirms that Dalinar was the first to bind him, strongly suggests that Gavilar wasn't a candidate for becoming a Bondsmith, and so it's my belief that Gavilar's visions have another source, and it isn't affiliated with Honor. Gavilar Kholin found an Unmade but it was not Ba-Ado-Mishram. This will be explained more below. Gavilar Kholin found Sja-anat instead. This one will require a bit of explanation, but I acknowledge first and foremost that it’s a tenuous assertion. To explain how I narrowed it down to Sja-anat, let’s go into why it’s not most of the other Unmade: Ba-Ado-Mishram The basis for it not being Ba-Ado-Mishram is largely covered by the fact that it seems strange that the Sons of Honor would not have simply released Ba-Ado-Mishram to allow her to bring back the forms of power. Gavilar has directly stated that he wants the singers to have their forms of power as part of the plan to return the Heralds. Ba-Ado-Mishram was likely in northwestern Roshar at the time of her capture. There are multiple reasons I say this. One, the Radiants began forswearing their oaths at Feverstone Keep. Given the gemstone archives at Urithiru, the location of Feverstone Keep was in the same region as Rall Elorim, the so-called “City of Shadows.” Two, the Radiants were still “fighting the devils” at the time of Feverstone Keep, suggesting that the singers still had access to the forms of power and that they had not had their Identity and more ripped out of them on account of Ba-Ado-Mishram’s capture. In other words, the vision at Feverstone Keep was very likely the moment when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured, or soon after. Nergaoul Nergaoul has been active for some time in Roshar, including Dalinar’s younger years. It’s very clear that Nergaoul has not been imprisoned for years. Plus, Nergaoul has been mostly if not completely in the Cognitive Realm (per Oathbringer) and not eligible for easy capture and study in the Physical Realm. Moelach Similarly to Nergaoul, Moelach has also apparently been active for some time, enough that Hessi has been able to track Moelach’s movements through multiple points in time, through Vorin areas of Roshar and elsewhere. Re-Shephir Re-Shephir has been absolved by Shallan in terms of her location, having been lurking at Urithiru. Dai-Gonarthis While Dai-Gonarthis is a candidate, there are indicators that suggest he(?) is restrained on Aimia as of Oathbringer. The Aimians are actively trying to prevent Akinah from being rediscovered. Hessi feels Dai-Gonarthis may have orchestrated the scouring of Aimia. Given that Akinah earned a nickname of “The Void’s Playground,” per Kaza’s interlude in Oathbringer, this adds weight to Hessi’s speculation. Yelig-nar Yelig-nar is troublesome, simply because of Queen Aesudan. She speaks as if Yelig-nar was the one found, but Gavilar couldn't figure out how to bond him, but on the other hand, the legends behind Yelig-nar appear to be accessible enough to be found with a little looking. (It's possible that it wasn't until Mythica was published that Aesudan "solved the riddle," though I rather suspect Odium telling her is how she achieved that.) Given that Gavilar “found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it,” suggests that the Unmade that was found did not have this trait associated with them, and that plus Yelig-nar apparently not being captive makes me think that it was not Yelig-nar that was the found Unmade. Ashertmarn This is the other Unmade that's troublesome, simply because the timeline for his arrival in Kholinar is fuzzy. However, since the queen's indulgent behavior didn't occur until recently, I rather think that Ashertmarn was drawn to Kholinar rather than released into Kholinar. It's also possible that Queen Aesudan had begun hosting Yelig-nar and this is what attracted Ashertmarn in the first place. For example, the queen's meals in her rooms exhibit some inconsistency by looking intact yet infested with decayspren, which makes me wonder if she had been using Yelig-nar's power to preserve them without meaning to do so, or if Yelig-nar did it himself as a wool over the eyes to make her think she was in control of the power, and so on. Chemoarish The Dustmother’s location and activity level are unknown, which does admittedly make her a candidate. The reason for her exclusion, however, has more to do with why I think Sja-anat is a better fit. Let’s now go into why I find Sja-anat the better fit for which Unmade Gavilar found: Sja-anat’s touch (Enlightened spren) has not been observed or reported until her appearance in Kholinar during Oathbringer. Unless people in modern Roshar have been dismissing past reports as superstitious nonsense, or these spren have been in very secluded areas, Sja-anat was likely captive in Kholinar until her release. With how much communication lines have improved, it seems unlikely that reports of “odd spren” would go dismissed unless they came from areas such as the Reshi isles that have stereotypes of paganism or oddity associated with them. Gavilar Kholin had privileged knowledge regarding the Unmade, particularly his knowledge about Ba-Ado-Mishram being the spren required for the forms of power. The most likely reason is that he was told by an external source well acquainted with the Unmade and their powers, and that would mean only Odium -- a very real possibility -- or an Unmade capable of communication. It’s possible the Ghostbloods have some of this knowledge, since Gavilar knows who Thaidakar is and the Ghostbloods have a clear interest in the Unmade and were likely one of those “watching [him]”, but I find it strange that they would just happen to know about Ba-Ado-Mishram’s capabilities in this respect. Could a Herald have told him? There was opportunity, yes, but why would they? Sja-anat has been in Kholinar for some time. I have no hard proof of this, namely for how long, but I feel it has been implied that Sja-anat has been there for a bit. The implication of Sja-anat being the Unmade below the Oathgate in the Cognitive Realm is due to her stating that she would “try not to kill you” to the group that used the Oathgate and landed on it in Shadesmar, where a large black hand just so happens to reach up out of the sea of beads from deep below, a being that Pattern speculates to be “likely one of the Unmade.” This, combined with the heartbeat sound that started after the group ended up in Shadesmar, suggests that perhaps that entity had been slumbering, as Moelach supposedly does. Even the possibility of having been slumbering would both explain the lack of Enlightened spren until present day, but would also corroborate her having been in Kholinar for a while. The Voidlight spheres. More on these in the next section. Glys was Enlightened some time ago. In particular, he found his way to Renarin at some point early in Words of Radiance. We don’t have an exact idea when Glys was Enlightened, just that it had happened “before they had formed their bond,” but the fact that an Enlightened spren somehow got to the Shattered Plains is proof that Sja-anat was active and not a captive during Words of Radiance if not before then. To further explain my suspicions about Gavilar, I have to go a little further into Sja-anat’s abilities, namely why I think she was the most feared by the Radiants. Theory: Sja-anat can Enlighten Stormlight into Voidlight. We have numerous examples of proof that she can Enlighten Investiture to become that of Odium, namely every single Splinter that was corrupted by her. If she can corrupt the less sapient spren, which by definition are comprised of Investiture from Honor and/or Cultivation, then it stands to reason that she also has the ability to corrupt the raw form of Investiture itself. Being unable to utilize Investiture against her would account for a great deal as to why the Radiants would not want to risk a confrontation with her, because it’s possible that Sja-anat can corrupt those abilities directly, or potentially do great harm to an individual holding Stormlight. I’m not going to get into the subject of “Enlightened” Stormlight much here, however, but I bring it up here as the concept of Enlightening Stormlight is very much relevant to the creation of the “black spheres.” Why do I bring this up? I refer to this post and Peter’s coy response within it, which to me suggests strongly that Sja-anat’s Enlightening is a level of Voidbinding. So with all that said, let’s summarize. Gavilar Kholin has been: Actively searching for the Unmade. Actively searching for powers from the enemy; anything that would possibly return the Voidbringers. Leaving cryptic instructions to Dalinar about something he needs to do, dying words that had a prophetic undertone. Receiving visions of the Everstorm and its effects, which is in the future. This is a key point. “Making” Voidlight spheres, which sources from the Shard of Odium. And so I leave you with one thought that, to me, explains the mystery, including how he “made” those spheres:

It probably has to do with the implication (from Jezrien) that the Heralds were responsible for the Unmade in some way, and the fact that Taln "wasn't meant to be a Herald" (per Ash), leaving us with the suspicious number of 9. That said, Ishar ended up being the "Bondsmith", yet the Unmade don't really correspond to the Bondsmiths, so there's an interesting discrepancy there with respect to the origin of the Heralds.

I don't think we have 100% of the picture, but there is speculation that the Aimians are keeping people away from an Unmade trapped there. Hessi's Mythica speculates that Dai-Gonarthis* may have been involved with (or the cause of) the scouring of Aimia. Given that Akinah has given a nickname of "The Void's Playground" (per Kala's interlude), there may be some truth to that. As to "those who could pull secrets from your soul," my wager is on Sja-anat being capable of this. She is called the Taker of Secrets, after all, but we curiously have not been explicitly told why she is called that. * Hessi also seems hesitant about the existence of Dai-Gonarthis, but in that one question ("Is it truly Dai-Gonarthis?") I got the impression that she doesn't want to believe whatever her sources had to say about Dai-Gonarthis. I also feel that Hessi is a little scared of Dai-Gonarthis's rumored abilities as well. Given the hint from the Way of Kings Death Rattle ("...Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep!..."), and the possibility that Dai-Gonarthis is one of the sapient Unmade, I'd be a little scared too.

Definitely agree with this. Unfortunately, I don't agree with you about Jasnah being at the Final Ideal. The reason why I say this has to do with some oddities involving Nale that make me wonder if you literally merge with your spren (and gain extra benefits) as part of the Final Ideal. I'm giving it more time to simmer in my head before I make an actual post about those thoughts, though, but the short version is that I wonder if people who are at the Fifth Ideal gain supernatural senses related to their spren, specifically what that spren is drawn towards (identifying candidates for that Order is where I'm going with this).

Stoneward use of Physical Tension really messed with the idea, that's for sure, but the concept really went sideways once it was oh-so-casually implied that Surges can be aspected to Physical, Cognitive, and/or Spiritual use. It made me wonder if we're going to see Willshaper being taken quite literally, by which I mean something like Cognitive Cohesion = extreme or reduced willpower. I can't begin to guess what use of Transportation Willshapers have now, if it differs from Elsecallers by much anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw something weird like "Cognitive Transportation" where your mind is literally elsewhere observing, not unlike an astral projection.