killersquirrel59

I missed the references to "low burn". That is quite true. Perhaps I'm way off here. The strength of Steel push and Iron pull however, I don't think are necessarily related to the level of burn. It's constantly talked about that you apply your full weight when you push or pull. However, just as physically you can apply your weight slowly, not causing as violent a reaction, I think that you can achieve a "lesser" push or pull by the same principle. The burn gives the ability to push or pull at all at an absolute power value. It's clear that the push or pull is not achieved at the moment of burn, but rather an ability gained while burning.

This is something of a change of opinion for me as I had previously been in the camp thinking that Chromium and Nicrosil were extant in AoL, possibly even in the Elendel basin and just not mentioned in that rather short book. This makes a big difference though.

I was doing some vague research into Chromium and think I found a slight hiccup. Quite simply, it could never exist for Allomantic purposes in the Final Empire and would be highly unlikely to exist in the Alloy of Law setting. Quite simply Chromium refining requires technology that would be rather difficult if not impossible to recreate in the setting. Allomancy requires that base metals be pure and that alloys be precise in their percentages. Well, pure Chromium requires furnace technology far more advanced than what was displayed at this equivalent technological level. Chromium cannot be extracted in its pure form below 2080o C (3776o F). The height of medieval metallurgical technology produced furnaces that could reach 1300o C. Even by the age of Enlightenment the best that could be managed was around 1600-1700o C. Ordinary forge technology just cannot produce those temperatures. It wasn't until the late 1890s that a process was developed to extract carbon-free Chromium, and that process was thermite (thermite was patented in 1893 and first used commercially in 1899). Now Chromium was used before this time, but not in its pure form, which would be required for Allomancy. Now Chromium does exist in its native form naturally, but is extremely rare and usually only found in volcanoes. It is not mined in this form. While I suppose thermite could exist in the Alloy of Law setting, based on other existing technology (railways, steam ships, ect.) if we assume similar technological progress to our own, it seems unlikely. Now the existence of Allomancy and Feruchemy would likely mean that the fields related to Metallurgy would be slightly more advanced than ours as there would be a greater demand, but even if thermite does exist in the Alloy of Law setting, it would have to be a very new invention. Nicrosil is far worse, being an entirely artificial alloy requiring very precise percentages of tricky metals (84.1% Nickel, 14.4% Chromium, 1.4% Silicon, 0.1% Magnesium). This simply could not be manufactured with the kind of technology available in the Alloy of Law setting, let alone the medieval technology of the Final Empire. Thoughts? Comments? Snide remarks?

I know it doesn't really matter. I was just curious.

Has there ever been a table made of the precise allomantic formulas for each metal? It's noted they have to be precise and we know that Pewter must be 91% Tin and 9% Lead and that Duralumin is 96% Aluminum and 4% copper. Has there been information posted as to the precise compositions of the other alloys?

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Atium can be flared like other metals. He uses the words "flaring it to life" but there is no mention of any increased effect from doing so. No mention of getting any extra power, or even of reduced time. Also, I was saying that the power differential is based on the method of burning, not the rate of burning, and that the rate is a byproduct of the different method. That's why there are only two settings. Think of it like burning something by itself, or throwing lighter fluid on the fire. Only two options, not a temperature controlled gas stove.

Not taint in the same way as Hemalurgy, as it isn't aligned to Ruin. But perhaps the Avatar of Preservation cannot have a power that is not of Preservation.

I think your analogy might be a bit off. If aluminum "blocked the signal" as you put it, it wouldn't burn up the metal reserves, just block their access while it was burning. Somehow, Aluminum actually either burns up the metal with no effect or changes it somehow to negate its power, leaving it as inert metal within the body. This second possibility is unlikely since it would leave metal reserves in the body, much of which is poisonous causing physical problems.

Perhaps only the Terris people had the potential to use Lerasium that way due to some other influence. Perhaps some previous investment from Leras. Vin and Elend, without Terris blood therefore could not have tapped Lerasium to gain Feruchemical potential. Also, if we accept that Feruchemy is a power of balance and not of Preservation, perhaps Leras did not want the influence of other power on his Avatar. Perhaps it would have tainted Vin in a way, less extreme than her hemalurgic earring, but enough that she would be unable to take the Shard as she did.

Ok. I see what you're saying now. I don't agree, but I think I actually understand now. The way I've seen it is not a question of x power over t time, but of x power for a normal burn or y power for a flare, both as separate absolutes accessed by performing different actions (burning or flaring) the metal. If it was a simple power over time function, then there would be more variance in the burn rates I think. But there isn't. There is burning, and there is flaring. That's it. Nothing in between. But if it was as you say, then burn rates would mean far less and be far more adjustable. Need a bit more power, burn it a little faster. Need it to last just a bit longer, turn down the heat a bit.

Your logic doesn't make sense. Why would the power be infinite if the time for Duralumin was instant? This isn't an equation of power over time fading. If that were the case then ordinary burning of metals would decrease in power as the reserve burned. It doesn't. The power of Allomancy is an absolute. Duralumin enhances that absolute value by another absolute value based in the power of the Duralumin.

We can't use anecdotal evidence to make assertions on the planck scale. That's why for the sake of this argument I was essentially saying that ε = 0. Everything we are asserting we have to judge in human time. I suppose the only way someone could ever tell for sure would be to burn Bronze while in a very powerful Bendalloy bubble (or while the subject is in a Cadmium bubble, either way works). Otherwise, at least on the scale of human perceptions where ε = 0, metals activate simultaneously. Duralumin does hyperflare metals, burning them away incredibly quickly rather than truly instantly. However, we don't know that Aluminum does any differently. Again we only have evidence that Vin burned Aluminum and then her metal reserves were gone. We don't know that Aluminum burns away metals truly instantly either. Again, the only evidence is in human perception.

Solid evidence for activating two allomantic effects (burning iron and flaring pewter) simultaneously. This next one's not so much evidence of simultaneous burning, but is solid evidence for it not takingany real time or concentration if she can burn Duralumin in response to an attack while still carrying out her own attack. This one solidly confirms that you can ignite Duralumin, for want of a better term, as part of the same Allomantic action as flaring a metal. If these actions activated in order rather than simultaneously, the Duralumin would burn out the Pewter before the flare could mean anything. Zane simultaneously ignites Steel and Pewter. Anecdotal true, but basically all evidence in the books will be so. That's what I managed to find from just a cursory look through Well of Ascension. I know there's more.

There are several times in the books that it talks about Mistborn activating multiple metals simultaneously. True this is anecdotal evidence and could mean a time of ε in between activations, but from the descriptions I read it didn't seem like it.

Ok, it doesn't take 0 time. But now we are quibbling over the difference between ε (arbitrarily small number) and 0. While technically ε does not equal 0, it is close enough for all practical purposes to say that it does. As the only evidence we have for Aluminum being "instantaneous" is anecdotal described from Vin's own perceptions, we can also assume that on the same basis the time that both effects occur over equals ε and not 0. Therefore if tA = the time it takes for Aluminum to activate and tD equals the time it takes for Duralumin to activate, then it is still quite reasonable to say that tA = tD. Similarly, the time it takes to ignite, flare, or extinguish a metal can also quite reasonably be equated to ε, as it cannot be long enough to require active concentration given the activities that Allomancers (as seen in the cases of Vin, Kelsier, and Elend) are undertaking while regularly igniting, flaring and extinguishing metal reserves without missing a beat. Tapping a metalmind can similarly be said to equal ε as shown by both Sazed and particularly in Alloy of Law by Wax, Wayne and Miles. If it took any significant time to tap a metalmind, Miles' trick would not work. Compounding gives near infinite reserves, allowing him to almost constantly be tapping, but does not decrease the time. If it took any real time at all, then he would not be able heal in response to being damaged in the way he does. Let us now add some terms to the argument given the above statements. tI = time to ignite a metal tE = time to extinguish a metal tF = time to flare a metal tT = time to tap a metal mind I contend based on the above arguments that all of these are equal to ε as well. Therefore, based on the established conjecture, Aluminum, Duralumin and whatever other metal (for the sake of argument let's use Pewter) would all activate simultaneously.

Igniting metals is instantaneous. This is described many times in the books and is required for some of the maneuvers seen to be used by both Vin and Kelsier. Tapping a metalmind is also shown to be instantaneous. This does not take time. Duralumin also very clearly does not occur over time. It gives one burst of insane power and then the superflared metal is gone.

Sorry I should have specified. What would happen if an Allomancer burned Aluminum and Duralumin at the same time while burning another metal as well? What would happen to the effects of that other metal?

I wonder what would happen if someone tried burning Aluminum enhanced with Duralumin... ...and discuss.

Delay is definitely a thing, but perhaps there is another explanation as well. Perhaps the only time that matters for delay is the time from when the power is taken by the spike and transferred to another. Perhaps after that, the power is set in their sDNA, altered by the spike and from then on the spike isn't acting as a power source, but a key to unlock that addition to the sDNA. If that were the case, the spike would only leak power in between when it was made and when it was first used to grant its power. EDIT: No on second thought, that doesn't make sense. Inquisitors then would just spike someone into someone else random, kill the random person immediately and then have a set spike they could build a store of. Also, Wax hardly got the earring fresh from a spiking.

"Not the way they know how to do it" is a notably vague statement in that context. Well, in any case, at least in any known way, it is impossible to get more than one power per spike, even if it is somehow theoretically possible in truth.

But that would basically never happen anymore. That's what was being said. In the days before Allomancy was prevalent, whose reaction to a lump of metal is going to be, "let's swallow it"? No one is thinking that way. And in the latter days, Lerasium doesn't exist anymore. The bead at the Well was the last bit.

So it's been confirmed that Wax's earring is a hemalurgic spike of some kind. Has there ever been more information on this? As far as I know, we don't even know what metal it is. Whatever it grants him, besides the ability for Harmony to talk to him, this does raise a few questions. 1. Who got spiked to make it? I doubt Wax understands what it is, as contextually he seems to see it only as a ritual item for use in prayer, but someone still had to be killed to make this trinket. 2. How does it still have a hemalurgic charge? Wax doesn't wear it all the time, only when praying. This means it spends a lot of time out of a body, losing charge all the time.

It is noted in several places that each spike can only steal one power. That's why Inquisitors thought Spiking Mistborn was such a waste, since they'd only get one power out of it.

I've been reading about these games and this looks like a blast. Koll Voss will join this game. He's a bit thick, but his loyalty is always with those who are loyal to him.

Has that been confirmed or is that your theory? It's certainly plausible, but so are several others.