Satsuoni

Oh no you don't Discuss, and feed Auotpwail with your opinions! For example, discuss the workings of the bubble over all three realms (keeping in mind that it establishes spiritual connection to the planet...) Also, I support the bullet refraction theory stated above (i.e. unpredictability due to imperfections, but basic mathematical stability (no random deflection)).

Yeah, something like that. And the only scene in the book (that I remember) with the human traversing the side of the bubble (Wax falling through it) simply describes the experience as a jolt. Another thing to note is that releasing the bubble drops you in the normal time without any jolt (at least it is not mentioned). Maybe that is just the movement... Wonder what it'd feel to slow down like that when running, then.

Fine. It does not seem to affect light At least from what I can tell. If the light were to speed up inside, we'd get a bubble with *very* powerful negative refraction, that would look very distinct from both inside and outside, unless it somehow self-corrected. Neither does the light red- or blueshift. As it is, the boundary is barely noticeable: (emphasis mine) and the cops miss the bubble altogether, as long as the people inside don't move. Such small and unstable (wavering) distortion is much easier to explain by wavering air pressure near bubble. But you may be right too. The sounds, however, are distorted: Which seems to suggest that interaction with bubble slows as the object approaches relativistic speeds (according to ToR, time has no meaning for photons themselves. maybe that is the reason, along with the time dilation effects) Also, Brandon seemed to say that the object/person can't be halfway inside, only being inside or outside (can't find the quote. I think it was in the twitter somewhere)

Fear me, for I am the avatar of your nemesis, Auotpwail! That being said, there is nothing inherently wrong with your theories as they are written that I can see (right now in any case). There is not enough info in the book to prove/disprove either. So I'll just make a few additions, that may provide some food for thought: 1. We know that the edge does exert some force on the exiting object (a jolt/ change of bullet trajectory). We also know that whatever that force is, it does not affect light. Neither does the speed of light change on the edge. The edge of the bubble is barely visible, and may be attribute to air distortion rather than the effects on light beam. There is no refraction. (Ok... there may be ways to get rid of refraction effects. I still think the light speed stays the same inside). 2. We all consider the effects to originate in Physical realm. But the Cosmere has 3 realms... What if the bubble is spherical-like, obeying the distention theory in the Shadesmar instead? There, a sphere-like thing corresponds to a single object regardless of its Physical form, so simply measuring distortion of the bubble in the Physical realm may not cut it. One of the simplest experiments I'd like to see in a bubble is the distribution of forces on the stick rotating about the center of the bubble with half of it (exactly half by mass and volume ) sticking outside. (I.e.e one end is stuck to the center, another is outside, full length of the stick is equal to bubble diameter). OK, this is it for the quick reply Maybe I'll find some inconsistencies later

Oh, and by the way, Duralumin does not burn instantly, and I think nicrosil does not either (they do in RPG, but that is for game balance purposes). I.E. duralumin is left over, burning, after other metals are gone. So: Duralumin +Copper: probably superstrong coppercloud, for all of 1-2 seconds of duralumin effect. Maybe strong enough to negate emotional effects on other people. Duralumin + Electrum: don't do that if you value your sanity... But yeah, your future, maybe up to a few years' worth, or even more (probably depends on the amount of ingested electrum) Duralumin + Malatium: Hm. Not sure. Maybe multiple alternate pasts/futures? (Malatium, like gold, seems to show what you/other people could have become in case you took other paths in life) Duralumin + Nicrosil : Nicrosil burnoff if you are not touching allomancer burning metals. Probably, as stated above, making the allomancer much stronger. Maybe the nicroburst could be made strong enough to ignite the metals allomancer was not burning at the moment? Unlikely, but a possibility. Duralumin + Bendalloy : the funny thing is, you have to be burning bendalloy inside the bubble to maintain the bubble. So, from the outside POV it burns much faster than from the Allomancer's POV. So, with Duralumin, it is rendered next to useless, since it will probably give you (the burner) about 2 seconds of a bubble with maybe 1000-2000 time compression, corresponding to 0.001 second on the outside... Maybe useful for the rush, i.e. when you already move at a speed, making such a bubble would allow you to traverse the bubble length essentially instantly. Cadmium: Opposite of bendalloy, it'd give you 1-2 seconds (or how long it takes for duralumin to burn through your metal. It is not instant - see the books. Vin has time to use it, so I estimate 1-2 seconds or so.) that would translate to maybe a day outside. Useful for the same tactics as AoL... I guess [EDIT] I don't know how range even works. Maybe it follows gaussian distribution, rather than sharp cutoff (for abilities like emotional allomancy). If so, perceived range would increase as logarithm of the power, i.e. may increase range by, say, 1 meter for each doubling of the power.

Seynir I look the barbarian over (sense motive: 16), and address him: "I am Seynir, a wizard, since I see no merit in concealing my identity in this situation. However, his" (I nod at Striax) "question also has merit. Who are you, and where did you come from? And since you are near the corpse we were going to check anyway, any idea what has killed it and how?" [ooc]You can delete this too. Also, I am chaotic neutral. I hope that is obvious from my mien...(i.e. don't apply DC, please, if possible)[/ooc]

[ooc]Did I just opened the door by pointing a finger at it? Sweet.[/ooc] I carefully look in the room to see if I spot anything of interest(21). Also, I look at the orc to see if I can determine what has killed him and when. (Without approaching or stepping into the room)

Seynir "I believe there is still one untrapped door left to explore. It is next to the troglodyte lair" I point at the door.

Seynir "Indeed. I am tired of waiting. Should we check the other door?"

But not necessarily at the same time as the events... And I don't remember clearly about it being the same person. [EDIT] Yes, the same person. Weird.

That is always a possibility. Him, or somebody taught by him (Vivenna?). I don't think he was a member during Warbreaker, but it is hard to tell. Still, when was it? I don't remember the timeline well.

The loss goes both ways, though. Other people with Breaths cannot feel drabs either. The strange thing is that he uses this term at all. Is it that common? was he the one who invented it? Do you remember where in Cosmere timeline Warbreaker is?

Oh, I am not sure if it adds anything to the discussion, but apparently Vasher referred to Breaths as "BioChromatic Investiture": Emphasis mine. And I think that may be the earliest mention of Investiture in his books (by publishing date), but not sure about that. Also, I've illustrated the process of Lifeless creation as I understand it, in the same collection.

Yes, that too. Also, I think an object can only be invested if there is a uninvested object, whereas a spren is more or less (imo) pure investiture form, absorbing stormlight to form "body", and cause minor effects (gluing stuff...). So without investiture, there would be no spren. I agree with the part of Honor's body leaking, but I am not sure it creates Highstorm, being more of a mind that it uses the more or less natural pattern (i.e. there were Highstorms when Honor was alive.. maybe. Mainly because it said in the book "ride the highstorm no longer", so apparetly riding the storm was a more common occurrence when Honor was ok) Also, it was said, that the power of a shard can function without cognitive aspect, but only on minimal level, like passive opposition to its antagonists, or following intent. But it wants the mind, too (when whole, at least).

Well, as I've said, I have added two illustrations for Nahel bond, as I see it. To comment on that, I say that a spren, IMO, is not Invested object, but rather the agent of Investiture itself, rather like a bit of Spiritweb stuck to the spike. We may recall that Allomancy, etc, were called "manifestations of Investiture", so I'd say that Surgebinding is another manifestation, spren is an agent/ Investiture..splinter? not sure how to call that. And I am not sure what to call Investiture itself now, which is why I started to draw in the first place...

Don't know. The images are still there (links in the quote:)), though, with the spren now. The vague key was in the above post.

Um, what? [EDIT] That does it Deleted.

Red blue and green are symbolic, but in general, yes, three realms. The energy in these arcs is used, among other things, for physical interaction, senses, spiritual stuff, etc., through the coupling with the corresponding arcs of other objects. The energy is then "made use of" (tHoA: This used-up energy is black part of the cycle. It also includes purely physical energy recovery (eating). Grey arrows are "unused pathways", paths that energy could take, but does not. A little confusingly, they are also part of the cycle, but mainly internalized part (no outside cycle). When Feruchemy and Allomancy are used, they are filled. The Shardic cycle also include branchings like that, but they are omitted for clarity.

Probably not just spiritual - Investiture seems like an energy that can be expressed in all three Realms, sometimes at the same time. Maybe. I think healing energy is directed by body, with preference for damaged area, just as speed may be constrained to a single arm, if the remains of your body are very still (you still expend additional energy, though) Not sure if the metal is absolutely necessary - see Vin and the mists, which I presume to be nearly raw Investiture when "burned". She just got most of the powers she would have is she had metals, but without. Also, I think the power will regenerate... in a while. Like duralumin, which, btw, I assume as something that pushes on the flow of Investiture through metal, increasing its "pressure" and giving you the boost (and a sped up consumption), but maybe without a sped up consumption (and not nearly that much boost). Standard rate of burning is not nearly the absolute maximum, probably just your "pressure differential" with Preservation. Heh.. If that is possible, I'd like to see a steelpush generated from a few tons of steel released in one second (Although that will kill the poor misting quite dead, I'd say) As mentioned before, it is how I originally thought it'd work, before the game was out. (Also, pewter gives you Strength, Speed, Agility, Density and increased healing rate Tap a few kilos of that in a second )

To: Odium: Well, a few small points (that I think are related to your problem): 1. Health does not give out exactly what was stored, since you generally store just immune response (unless you are wounded), but can get out a regrown limb (mass gain). So this particular power becomes generic, and then routes to the places of the most need (I am not sure if Feruchemist can choose the wound to be healed). 2. Raw power of the Shard is not constrained to Allomancy or Feruchemy, but can power any magic system, or just change reality, as Rashek did (moved a planet, made volcanoes, rewritten population genotype, etc). Allomancy is a form the raw power of the Shard takes when filtered through metal and human soul. But the input is still raw power. Therefore, I think Investiture works like health : it can be stored from any of the sources you have (Feruchemy tap, like in the game - the game is, of course, limited due to balance issues), Allomancy burn, or just your soul, and becomes raw Investiture. When drawn, it routes, like the health does, to the best available outlets, until the pressure starts breaking you down, since the power is not pre-filtered like in Allomancy and Feruchemy, and your body (and soul) cannot take it. If filtered through Allomancy conduit -you get allomancy. If you are already burning -even better, and most power is drawn there. If you are just a human, then part of the power goes back (creating additional resistance to tap), and part goes into your soul making you generally better, a bit stronger, as if you get a Human strength spike, a bit smarter and more stable, with sharper senses, but all of it, and not very much. The problem is, this is just my hope - there is simply not enough data to be certain. With the available data, your definition is also valid,as far as I can tell. [EDIT] @Telcontar: What? OK, I'll leave it be. P.S. I am not sure if anyone has explained it to you already, Odium, but to split a quote like that I just push the "reply" button, and then copy [ quote post=smth time=smth ] line before each part that I want, and add a closing segment afterwards. [ /quote]

Well, I'll still hold to my idea (I think you read my original post), that investiture drawn in its raw form is like mists for Vin - they power those powers you have, at first, favoring the stronger or better accentuated ones, then they give you lesser powers, but at the cost of essentially ripping holes in your Spiritweb, possibly causing irreversible damage, and then you go boom, and hope sazed won't mind taking care of your bodyless self. Also, I think the name comes from their ability to store their souls, i.e. that part of preservation that makes humans (on Scadrial) sentient, becoming .well..not sure... more like animals? Like lifeless? for a while, and gaining almost every attribute, but just a little, when drawing it back.

To use these particular disciplines, yes. Or get a transfer by some other art that will change his/her sDNA More precisely, they can be converted into raw shardic power and back. It is especially obvious when considering compounded health : you can cut off and eat the person's arm, and he'll regrow it, again and again, without losing body mass, while his gold lasts, by drawing energy straight from the Shard. Um, no. In the end, all Shardic energy is the same (can fuel all disciplines), so human souls (who were created to mimic the creatures they (all Shards) once knew, from the book: ) are similar. They can't store health into metal, but they can use it for themselves, and they can possibly use parts of it to fuel magic (like Awakening on Nalthis, which is like Hemalurgy in many aspects). Shards are quite physical. Mists can be seen and felt, atium and Lerasium look just like metal. So it is a little hard to tell which part belongs where, i.e. what is physical part of the world and what is physical part of the shard. Also, physical body (in cosmere) is influenced by both spiritual (Hemalurgy warps) and cognitive (Soulcasting) aspects, and vice versa. Change one aspect, and other change to match. Shardic pieces may just feed the Spiritual aspect, but it changes the physical, too, even changing its mass. Hm.. OK, this is the same thing I proposed above, so... The difference is in perception of what is part of Shard and what is not. Humans are alive because of the Spiritual part. Gravity seems to be (in cosmere) a spiritual link between objects. Object composition is related to cognitive aspect, and shard can manifest in all three realms, apparently (Dor seems to be affecting Shadesmar strongly, etc). So, for me, it is easier to think of pieces that human can transform into shard as already parts of the shard. In your interpretation, they are separate. (too sleepy to go on, sorry) The RPG may be a secondary canon, but it may still be used as a lower bound unless stated otherwise by Brandon. In it, Investiture is converted from other kinds of your storage, and can be used to augment the stores that you already have (doubling them, essentially, but no more, at least in the game). Also, large amounts of investiture may be used to erase the other person's stores - not tap them, just overwrite with "noise". In so far, no taking. You can use the other person's store if you killed that person and got this particular Feruchemical power from him (this was confirmed, iirc). Other methods may be possible (identity tricks).

Well... I think the proper term is "Shard's investiture", rather than yours. After all, many (if not all) things that you store are due to the shard : your health, your sentience, and even the bodies of the humans were originally made by the shards. So allomancy - the shard invests additional power to you while the metal lasts. The metal and your Spiritweb shapes it, as the Aon shapes Dor, but it is the same power, just different shape. Feruchemy : you store part of the shard that makes you human, pushing it into the metal, changing its signature (yes, probably in the spiritual realm), essentially "Allomancy backwards", and then draw, destroying this overlay you created. Hemalurgy - you rip out part of the person's ... well, more like connection in this case. Or, to be more precise, investiture shaped like a conduit. Ok, a little confused on this one. Essentially, the shard has a duality of power and body/soul. Mists are the power of the shard, and the body of the shard, and its spirit (soul). Human souls are detached pieces of the shard(s), but they get refilled/recycled like other parts of the shard (since, spirit). The same energy/body may be forced into non-shardic form (health, power, pull, whatever), and will eventually recycle into a spirit form. At least IMO. Kinda hard to put that into words. [EDIT] That reminds me - the power of the shard seems to always go back to the same place. In case of Ruin, the expended atium went back straight to the pits, rather than to the Ruin, pieces that went into making humans stay in the humans (and maybe even grow? or get diluted by population? Strange, that part), the power (energy) used by breaths to move cloth around never exhausts breaths, etc.

Well, for one thing: the size of the metalmind matters. It more or less specifically states so in the book, both for feruchemical and hemalurgic charges: The metal specifically changes its properties, so that burning a metalmind gives a different power: Which only works for you if you are the same person (or stole his ability, or identity), but nevertheless. (Hemalurgic and feruchemical charges are independent, though) Now to the definition of Investiture (as used by author of AoL AA): Here are his phrases using "Investiture": Plus the Nicrosil entry. So, well, the bolded entry seems to be the basis of definition of Investiture as power, with the word invest being synonymous to "charge" or "fill", as well as the fact that "invested into something" usually (imo) mean that there is a part of you in that something, be it money or your soul. Although... I can't really disagree with you completely, since even "storing investiture" may mean something similar to "connection" (duralumin metalminds). I just rather hope it is not so. [EDIT] Ninja'd Oh,BTW, if your try to classify Feruchemy by the opposites, what is the opposite of health? Also, how do you separate 16 metals into 3 groups (physical, cognitive, spiritual)? Not to mention that there are about 38 metals (with God alloys) Oh, and Windrunner's usage of store Investiture comes from RPG rules

Hm. Not a bad idea! I'll approve of it Won' espouse it for now, though. Also, I didn't remember that interview, or missed it entirely Stones appear to be a form of sum total of afterlife for Shin, not Heaven... Hell (or damnation) for Szeth, heaven for sinless. Hm... My thinking is kind of muddled, but... OK: Really not sure about this one, but maybe their teachings got corrupted, resulting in either casting Radiants as villains or gods (possibly one order against another, I still think Stone Shamans may be related to Stonewards), and discarding the voidbringers entirely. Then, becoming one or claiming that they were human like all others would be a horrible sin, punishable by, well, truthlessness. Sample scenario (pure speculation): Szeth discovers some radiant powers of windrunner. But the shamans are degenerate stonewards, and they hate windrunners. They see that he betrayed their heritage, and tell him "Windrunners were assassins we fought against! you want to be like one -here is your blade, and out with ya!" Uff.. sleep...