Kasimir

Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum Aman'vod. Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum Araris'vod. Edited to add: Thoughts - Araris being hit feels like a low profile shot without hitting a newer player. I can't rule out that my suggestion of PM shenanigans painted a target on Araris's back though, sigh. Aman wanted to RB JNV before he went out. I'm not sure if he stuck with JNV. If so, this just suggests Aman didn't hit the DK. Araris targeted me. I don't know who he hit with the hoover.

One minute!

....... .................... So basically I can unvote Wit and kill Aman even though I'm not sure about this, or I can allow a no-exe and we repeat this crem again next mcfreakin' cycle. Can we all please, next time, settle this in advance instead of in the last one hour Aman. Sorry bro. I don't see a way to make this work, and I don't feel confident enough of V!you, and I think we need the closure rather than to repeat this same stupid scheisse again. I am so, so sorry if you are Village and as long as I live I will try to avenge you. Edited to add: Also I hate all of you for forcing me to make this choice

Bro you are not dying this way, you are just making yourself and Wit both lose powers, I think? Goooodddddd Fifth is laughing his arse off at us rn I love you too bro

You may need to independently revote, Fifth may not notice and log. I'd prefer it be you tbh but the wagonomics rn are screwed to hell

I'd prefer you to Archer, but: I TOLD Y'ALL SO >> But no, admittedly when I'm staring down the barrel of Wit getting an extra Ideal, I also get your point on "k pls let's have a think about this sort of???" @Ashbringer Are you voting? @Amanuensis - At the risk of hinting too much to the thread, IMO I'm not an especially useful role and am very disposable, so believe there are better promotion candidates. H'okay where we at now: Thiiiiiis is going to be that Lion-Dragonfly-Vulture dance again isn't it >>

Actual question. Do we want Wit to get an extra Ideal? >> Edited to add: 'Cause ngl I'm this close to giving Mat a heart attack by pulling off Wit and going to him despite what I said earlier.

I laughed. I'm sorry. I am rapidly understanding and not for the first time while Wilson and Alv thought murdering all their suspects was an effective method of problem solving. More or less my position now. Or to spell it out: I agree Aeoryi could be a strong E player and maybe we're discovering this, but I would struggle to hold this amount of thread, more so if she's also active in PMs (IDK don't ask me), and doc at the same time. At some point, something's got to give. I agree I'm not a strong E player so I'm not a good yardstick but it's not easy to handle that amount of activity switching/energy and I think it's fair to prima facie V read on that basis. Can I just vote everyone Every train is terrible! I'm going back and forth on Wit, to be fair. I think Devo had a decent point about Wit being better supported with teammates but I have wondered at points if he's specifically running a FNG play. I think sometimes all the options are ethically feelsbad ones and I'm the one candidate I can ethically feelok about advocating for. I'm serious about being the 'a plague on both your houses' guy - I genuinely cannot say I feel I have a basis for V!reading Aman at this juncture. At the same time, I don't really want to C1 Aman. That's not a thing I'm ever going to back. Archer's response to the votes unsettles me and echoes of E!Archer in the way he responds. At the same time, I can categorically say the fact I was refusing to vote Archer still is indicative I wasn't fully convinced by Aman's case. I think in terms of strong categorical stuff I'm most powerfully against voting Aeo or Araris today, with a side of you. I feel that these three are partly reason-backed. I am not going to vote Aman (I think a pragmatic case can be made for this), and I'd prefer not to vote STINK C1. I have light reason to favour not voting JNV at this juncture too, I think. I...can't fully say voting Devo makes sense to me. Back to the merry-go-round I guess. Wit??? Beautiful

May I recommend myself for the exe if anyone feelsbad about voting anyone else? I think I'm too rusty for SE I am legit taking turns to paranoid on the next poster >> Edited to add: @Amanuensis Serious question. If you are potentially up for the exe now and I'm not remotely tracking the movements as I'm still tired—are there any key suspicions you want followed up on. Edited to add 2: Or just reads in general. Edited to add 3: And Devo shows up, the latest episode in SE makjang...

Current Thoughts: -Sleep is bad -Probably need more sleep -Feel Archer trying to brazen past the case however bad runs closer to E!Archer responses - compare to LG96 for instance -Say this despite not super being convinced to vote Archer. Point of thread discussion even if I wish we would all not put it in the last three hours c'mon (Aman excused here) -Cannot really say V read Aman even if would not C1. I was pretty upfront about this. Sphincter tightening moment was real even if I got distracted from it. -Mat is nonstarter for me. Sticking with the pro/anti issue. -God I'm really being the annoying "a plague on both your houses" guy aren’t I

What did I wake up to. Edited to add: Y'all are validating my view here that sleep is bad

Does this alter your perspective if you recheck the rules? Key thing here: Elim kill can be RBed and redirected but does not consume an action slot, preventing easy mechsolving. Edited to add: Not sure how to feel about Archer not pointing this out when it's pretty obvious. ... Sleep gdi >>

Quick set of comments before nap: -Realising Aeo third voter + Mat CW makes Archer's claim less insane. I thought he was doing the buck wild thing of claiming at two votes even with Aman whipping. -No strong view whether this changes things as I was not voting Archer anyway. -Curious where Archer intends to go from here. -Aman, what would change your Archer read/what changed it? -Accidental SE allnighters are hell and I'm not committing to anything without at least a nap -Ilu all despite being hell to read I am clearly a masochist -Aman, you can double post to vote, don't forget it's legal.

I don't disagree, but it gave me flashbacks of you being waffly in LG94, and - I what. Why the f can't you guys be straightforward to read I was legit on a crack theory of E!Aman trying to get you killed and FUDing me like crazy and then you do this out of nowhere and I'm like ??? Goodbye everyone. I'm getting sleep I cannot handle this thread. I'll be back. Probably.

Nah, I've actually gone from LG97 all the way back to MR64, might skip back more but I need a life at some point and I think I've seen what I needed to see Do you feel this is somewhat mutually exclusive with an Archer vote? Aman bro, ilu and I was very happy you're subbing in and I will never be down for C1ing you especially after such a long break but u must know my sphincter tightened in LG94 flashbacks when I read this post >:P Fifth if you made Aman Evil I s2g I am never playing a game of yours again I cannot my heart cannot take this do u know how much I struggled to exe him even after Devo RBed him like I just could not accept Aman was most likely Evil and if not for Alv and Araris being based af IDK what I would've done [Note: not being all that serious, for anyone not aware of how much Fifth and I troll each other. But probably already obvious from my calling his distros sick.] Long story short - I can see it within Archer's V range but also within his E range. It's a tell that's been validated (e.g. MR64), but Archer was very demonstrative about mentioning it, which he hasn't really been in previous games, e.g. LG96 of the Great Mat Push. LG97 is an interesting comparator for different reasons IMO because Mat is painfully obviously Village in that game in a way he isn't in this game. I grant some of it is likely hindsight since I think Stick and I argued about whether Mat was V or not, but the thing we felt he had going for him was just a very organic process of thoughts/engagement/solving, which I'm not seeing here. And yeah, temptation to boomerang I guess. That's fundamentally my problem and JNV's. I don't disagree with Mat about metascrewing but I also think metascrewing happens less than players think: not every point is vulnerable to metascrewing because some of it is temperament-based and if you don't make a deliberate attempt to metascrew, you lapse. The fact that tells exist in the first place is a testament to that, though I definitely agree some are masked more easily than others wrt JNV and myself. Mat's been very good at masking his defensiveness tell on occasion, IMO, but less successful on some occasions than others, e.g. LG96, where the consequences were more serious/severe. This was my issue with Archer on ties tbh. Fair. Do you feel she's powerwolfing/making a play for thread control/dominance, then?

Aradon had tried. It wasn't easy keeping up a conversation though, when you had to suspect basically everyone. Furtive conversations away from the others could only achieve so much, and in the end, Keleran didn't really want to talk. "You're stronger together," Ellu had said, firmly, when Keleran had tried to take his leave, pushing him lightly in the chest with a small hand. "Can't keep the world out forever, Keleran." He tried, though. At least Keleran figured Aradon was as true as a cautery blade. He didn't think the Windrunner was playing him false. He had been sincere in his early desire to talk plans to discover the turncoats among the Radiants. That sincerity...Keleran let out a long breath. It was something he struggled to find as the others spoke. Sometimes he questioned his own decisions too. More than sometimes. In the end, he rebuffed Aradon after a few brief attempts. "Windrunner talk," Ellu had said, yet again. "Or Skybreaker talk. You aren't here to be a hero, Keleran." "Then why did you choose me?" he demanded. The same pain that went through to the crack in his heart; the same knowledge of his own inadequacy, even as others ran about and tried to identify the traitors among them. And all Keleran was good for was secondguessing, questioning himself and his own thoughts. Walking about in circles, again and again. She pressed a touch to his palm, and Keleran found tears in his eyes. They shouldn't have been there. "Sometimes," Ellu said, solemnly, "You don't have to be a hero, Kel. You don't have to fight. You just have to not give up. You just have to show up and be there." "Because no one else will," Keleran whispered. Memories of the whitespine. Standing his ground, even though he was certain it would be the death of him. Not one step backwards. Ellu's touch, like a teardrop in his palm. Was it enough, Keleran wondered. Could he be enough?

Ngl I'm re-reading LG97 for an Archer baseline rn and all I feel is an increasing desire to re-boomerang back to Mat

Question for you. Suppose we do shoot a second exe player (which I've been advocating for, though granted, what my opinion means might be very well nothing, but part of the point is to raise the strategy and alter the Elim calculus.) In that world, don't the Elims risk revealing their hand a lot? Because this essentially means that all the players who voted for the second exe candidate are automatically suspect, and it's quite likely that trail will let us domino at least one Elim. To be clear, my issue isn't so much with the last second vote movements issue, it's just that a consensus to rig already renders the exe more toothless because that's no longer quite as much pressure. But I ask this because I'm not sure if I consider that complacence per se. If this is another elastic vote moment and Archer/Ash E/E I s2g ._. This one I do see, as I think Archer has a tendency to perform certain V things when E. That said, yeah I'd like a comparator. I guess I'll go look at some past interactions for this one. This is a bit of an aside but I'd definitely like to ask you how much you expect the Elims to be leaning into that. My view is still that Fifth Ideal is very attractive to them, and the voting + RP Ideals are fairly achievable, so I expect them to be gunning for it if possible. That as a corollary does require me to believe at least one voter in the pool I referenced earlier is Evil, with asterisks for Archer, potentially Devo, Ash, Raven, for RP. I'd expect the RP ideal issue to define a pool, even if I don't take it to generate individual suspicion, since Archer did frontload his RP posts as a Village player in QF66. Vibe/tone read or? He does, yes. LG74, MR52 (or whichever was the one I ran where Araris got C1ed and killed his own mechanic.) You don't feel TJ is better off being replaced by a PH? Tfw Ash makes a better Archer push than Aman did One, as of my last count. Probably should since you fooled me for a decent length of time in LG96. You and TJ had me question mY rEaLitY >> Good luck btw. I've discovered this and I'm crying internally everytime I try to edit tbh >> All the best with the dentist! Fair point about Aman, and it's definitely a though I'm keeping in mind. Would you happen to be able to explain why you feel that way about Mat or Aeo but not me? I mean, I feel I fit the same 'asking questions' profile here.

I plugged in Tallybot but I think new Shard broke Tallybot and - yep it did it also broke postcounter bot and I'm not in the frame of mind to fix that so I guess good ol' manual methods it is >> Archer (2): Aman, JNV Ash (1): Aeoryi Raven (1): Kas JNV (1): Mat Devo (1): Archer Wit (1): Araris Nobody (6): Devo, Wit, Raven, Ash, STINK, TJ ...Does seem to indicate there's at least one Elim in <Aman, JNV, Aeoryi, Kas, Mat, Archer, Araris.> Non-definite as there's time for rush votes and Devo always votes late. TJ hard to say due to inactivity. Lean against Aeo and Araris, maybe Mat for reasons stated. Light V on JNV may turn out to be poorly justified. Mean I'm theoretically committed to one Evil in <Aman, Archer>, maybe JNV if I build them back in. Man could this BE more awkward... Edited to add: Just like old times!

Bruv I'm doing NaNo and I can tell you my brain is absolutely not on board with the RP in this game as well, I have no idea why I signed up, and I'm actually writing a weird D&D Friends mashup that I blame my recent nostalgia-fueled Friends marathon for and the character voices keep slipping here >> Long story short, just profiling. Feel they've been making entirely uncontroversial points (cf. the second place exe debate) and flying quite a bit under the radar for their post volume (keep in mind they're #4 here) so I figured they could take some pressure. Add zero reason to V!read (not really feeling Mat's read here) and I figured I should vote them. Disclaimer that they were actually in my <Archer, Ash, Ravenclaw> PoE, but I felt bad voting Ash as he's just returned, and I keep going back and forth about Archer. That is, his first post still seems off to me and I don't feel his tie views come from a Village perspective, but at the same time, IDK, I just can't seem to get fully on board with that train and IDK if it's just because he's alive and posting. Got an Archer case to sell me? Edited to add: 2's functionally the reason Ash is on my E list for now, yeah. I could see to revising but it really depends on whether Ash further engages and whether some of the V!Ash stuff pops up. Granted, he did fool me for quite a while in LG96 so maybe I'm not the best Ash reads guy out here.

Nope. Fifth did. There's somewhere in the Elim doc where he reacts to realising he'd forgotten it was basically his distro I was running, and no, I wouldn't have done it straight up but Fifth joined last minute and the distro was too good for me to pass it up, so I just went with it. Different voting philosophies then, and views about how voting generates pressure and information. In general, as long as a player isn't a V read, my view has usually been that you should be willing to vote them, or to let them die. Edited to add: I guess in defense of my GMing, he'd made that distro one to two years ago, so it wasn't the worst shot in the world to assume he'd just forgotten it existed. Given he spent most of the game panicking about a non-existent V!Seeker, it wasn't the worst GMing call to have made. Edited to add 2: I guess since I shouldn't be lazy, even though this does veer dangerously into the exe/no-exe approximate area - I'm willing to accept I have pretty low thresholds for willingness to vote a player, since I consider anyone fair game as long as I don't V (or vaguely null+) read them. In general, my view is that a discussed lynch with votes that unpredictably remain on players and that are distributed (scattered) rather than pre-consolidated early creates pressure and keeps players on their toes, reducing the places an Elim has to hide. The exe is the Village's best power, ignoring all the role BS. It's the one thing you gotta do, one way or another. Now, V!TKN and I have clashed before and it just boils down to the fact we have different risk appetites. I'm okay with chasing wild leads or hunches or gut or meta reads or just lurkers/profiling issues on C1-C2 that aren't smoking guns. V!TKN has argued before because he wants more certainty. I get that, and I get it's an appetite difference in the end. My view is just that you can't sit back and wait for pressure. Someone's got to get the ball rolling, one way or another. A lot of C1 is pretty specious, and sometimes even on C4, after a string of successes, it's like playing C1 all over again where you have to do the legwork. You probably don't endorse the sitting back camp since you've been voting early, but that's my view of why pushing matters and why I'm fine being pretty damn aggressive in voting. My counterbalance is that I will also rethink a vote to death and shift it based on my updated set of beliefs because I have a powerful aversion to voting Villagers by accident, so want to be sure. In that light, one of my strongest E!tells is extreme vote stability (probably MR62 but I've actually scrubbed that game from my memory because, ew.)

It does, but I take the balancing factor to be where they've tried to work more as a Villager but just end up lapsing back into inactivity - it suggests it's a bit more robust as a tell than something JNV can just immediately resolve. At this point, it's a PoE issue for me. I theoretically agree with Ash, but feel the opinion he offered (anti-second exe fixing) was very safe, if also very sensible. IMO the Elims are more likely to offer the safe/standard opinion than run against thread opinion and dig their heels in, which is why I was focusing on the anti camp since the second exe place issue became a big deal in thread. Add that to his low profile in the game so far, and I feel he needs more pressure, minimally. I'm wary of lurking under the radar as a play profile, in a nutshell, and Ash is one of the players in that set. It's counterbalanced by the fact I like the tone of his first post, and also don't really want to C1 Ash on his first game back. There are some more indicative V!Ash tells but I haven't seen them yet. This previous sentence does not itself indicate E!Ash, just that I haven't yet seen the V!Ash tells I know of, so can't give him credit for them. tldr; combination of low profile + hasn't done anything Village yet, so indifferent to his dying, minus the bit where I liked his very first post and don't want to C1 him on his first game back. Who do you think made that distro?

I don't! There is so much rust here I could open a rust shop and I've been missing for what, just three games? Get your own reads smhhhh

I can't go into detail at this early juncture as it involves PMs, but in general, a proactive attitude towards solving the game that I judged much less likely to emerge from an Elim/Elim mindset. As much as I joke about bro reads, just as neither JNV nor TJ had been default bro reads, it usually doesn't influence a direct read unless it's one of those things like my tendency to give Aman more chances than I probably would another player.

You were in the Discord mate, you knew he was in the PH list and might be tapped I am...potentially willing to be talked into a Devo side, but I feel the proactive, early bringing up of the second exe issue does give her a tiny bit of credit in my eyes, even if I also think it's washed by the mech discussion issues. RE: Archer's Elim control/ seeking certainty views, I don't see E!Devo trying to coalesce/control consensus this early, before anyone else got on board.