Kasimir
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Everything posted by Kasimir
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Times when I hope I'm GMing rather than playing
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Tbf, would be a fun way to do it E/E. Wholesome af. Just here to chill and play with bros
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Would be a novel play, I'd grant. Pocketing the thread by bantering good-naturedly and being genuine. Very Gaotona ¯\_㋡_/¯ Who needs bussing when you can just be bros?
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All I can ask :eyes: I am the Last Son of House Urbain. People pocket me, and I stab them in the face for it Bring it :eyes:
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I don't deny you're probably right, and I think you're the...seventh? Probably? SE person to tell me I badly need an Elim game, but traumatised in both alignments probably isn't the wrong way to put it. Even as much as everything screams in me about hating Evil and that an Elim game is going to be a disaster and also, urgh, LG20/MR9 flashbacks everywhere >> But rationally, y'all are right, yeah. Yeah, I'm just trying to find a way out of the self-destruction. The RP didn't do it for me but apparently turning the thread into PMs works just fine And ganging up on TJ Still, I'm really glad the alignment shift is doing it for you Just do me a favour and NK me Night 0 It will be blissfully peaceful in the dead doc! No paranoia!
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I mean, still gotta wait to hear from Karn, IMO. More data the merrier. But I suppose the point is - why would you vote Archer for info? Suspicion he's lying? But if you're a Village Epic, then you have prima facie evidence that Village Epics can and do exist, right? So why is it startling and what info do you really need? What info do you expect to get from an Archer lynch? Sleep well, Ash Thanks for joining the Thread PMs, even if Dingo ghosted my Star Wars meme PM
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LMAO I feel like some players gonna be twitching when they read that But I agree, really. I think it's something my younger self didn't get and that made him awful at SE because he expected exactly that - logic, consistency, carefulness, but really we're all messy human beings and that slices through how we play in all sorts of interesting ways. Which reminds me of what Fifth said about Orlok, that he has that grace built into his playstyle to somehow allow for that messiness and fallibility and I feel like you do that deftly as well, but that's no surprise, I think Whatever your alignment, it's at least been a pleasure to watch you at work in the thread. I'm aware one of my many weaknesses as a player is I can side-eye very strongly and deathtunnel someone for doing something I think is illogical so I usually work to hold it back. Anyway, agreed - it's at least a D1.5 lead; in some ways this should be D2 but doesn't really feel like it because we have a lynch but the results are withheld so the result is we're in some sort of attenuated limbo. But the way to play the game is still the way it's always been. Discuss, verify, confirm. It's something I've thought about, especially when looking at one Elim doc (can't remember which) after a game, which is that y'all sometimes seem to hold yourselves more strictly than...people really do or care about. Which is odd but not surprising - self-consciousness, I suppose. In that regard, my not having been Evil in living SE memory except maybe for Sart and Araris does put me in an odd position because I will do things and genuinely not know what Evil Kas would do. Of course I can make informed guesses but those guesses are seven years out of date, and I strongly feel that you don't know until you're back in the cursed situation. But I'm glad you're in this space. Not giving a damn and just playing it your way and doing what makes you happy is probably the way to do this. If doing all that analysis and stuff doesn't make you happy, like what's the point, you know? You're sort of signing up to torture yourself which is...just sad. And I recognise there's an element of this to what I'm doing where I'm trying to rediscover how to play a Village game that doesn't involve fifty layers of guilt and obligation, but it's good to see you have reached that level, because it gives me hope I can find my way out too Orlok's the one who always wanted to cross blades with you in thread This though? I think you just got Araris excited
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1. This is true 2. I think someone once told me that Village runs on plausibility and Elims on possibility. One introduces doubt; one cuts down on the probability space by making assessments of likelihood/reasonableness. I think that sort of makes sense. That being said, since I haven't been able to do the hardcore analysis this game so far due to RL stuff, at least I can try to facilitate discussion - and I think it's a good lesson to (re-)learn from the mess that came out of C4 in AG8. And if I'm really wrong and it was a tunnel on Mat, and this is another tunnel, this is probably the best shot we, the Village, collectively get at working that out. Just getting people talking, answering questions, and getting the thoughts out there. But I think it's important to still make the plausibility calls, as a Villager. 3. It's interesting to consider if you're pocketing me and the rest of the thread, but I simply don't have the bandwidth to resolve this, and you seem to be chill and having fun which I think is more important, so whatever. And besides, we're only on C2, and it's not my job - there's a whole Village out there to do the thinking /shrug And if I'm Evil, I have faith that y'all will catch me soon enough if I keep talking too, so whatever It's nice when it's someone else's problem 4. RIP I feel u bro good luck! My exam is in two more hours and I have run out of chulls to give and am Zen. Edited to add: Suggest a direct assault with the GoT Shame Nun :eyes:
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I have not put too much weight on this point because in theory, any decent player should be aware of their V and E meta, even if they can't disguise it well: Devo has been switching up her playstyle in the past game or so, but she was still distinctively in her Village meta in AG8. I would not feel powerfully confident enough about my ability to read her at all that I would stake a lynch on it, but I would not be shocked Pikachu. Edited to add: 1. Tfw you casually treat the thread like a PM 2. It could be, but I think it does shape where you want to LAFO. The more I play SE, the more - as much as I am also influenced by the guilt and terror of a ML and Kas is very much a Windrunner as a Village player - I increasingly appreciate that a discussed lynch is the most powerful informative tool we have, and sometimes the only way to test your thoughts is to: A. argue with other people, and B. let reality punch you in the face by LAFO. Sometimes you really just can't tell a priori - you need empirical evidence. Edited to add 2: I'm not talking about myself in the third person, I promise - I was just comparing it to kel's streak of chaos.
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Huh. Point. I'd categorised it in my head as an infolynch but you're right.
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Soother trying to save Stick is odd to me, in that it would give us a fractured picture of the vote manip that happened. Because Karn is responsible for a move towards Stick, I'm responsible for trying to save Mat by killing Karn, and my instinctive read of the situation is sort of opposite of Devo's - I don't really see it as trying to save Stick, I see it as trying to save Mat. I'm partly trying to work out why, but it's probably because so much of the discussion and energy was about Mat, and then Stick sort of just happened and Illwei herself lampshaded it, that we don't have full sight of why that train became a deal. (We now know Striker claimed neutral, and Tani claimed a bad gut, but.) It's not impossible, it's just odd. Soother trying to remove a vote from Karn is also interesting because that could imply E Karn (I suppose it could be an Elim messing around, but eh - sometimes you do have to commit and verify.) But I feel the first scenario is almost just a few shades away from E Mat and E Karn, and I don't like how the E Karn possibility looms up again in the second scenario. I think that's where I struggled again with his claim that he asked about conversion mechanisms. I get it could be an Epic/Reckoners flavour thing, and I'm biased against conversion games, but even in the absence of information (i.e. blackout), that or a zero Elim C1 really isn't my intuitive read of the situation, and if you have some amount of zero Elim credence, then what are you doing voting on a main train when you don't have to? It's just a thought process that doesn't really make sense to me. And I also tend to feel suspicious of too much conversion discussion prior to - well, the weirdness with the NK, if he claimed to have it on the mind, because that's sort of the thing Elims would like Village to get distracted about, as you can't solidify your reads too much in a conversion game and the blackout nature makes it worse. He did give a possible answer, I'm just still mulling over the number of questions I have. Overall agreed. I sigh as I basically see my same failings and responses here I over-tunnel on logic/argumentative flaws and disregard the feelings that tell me otherwise (hi LG12 Orlok, sorry), or just go full hog on the feelings and ignore the logic; spent most of C1 in a haze of self-doubt with my brain continuously going, "This could be Iguana round 2. Do you want to make it Iguana round 2? Are you sure?" which probably explains what Archer calls a playstyle but is just me doubting and overcompensating by going around in circles and rethinking things at least fifty times and overcommitting as a result. Ideally I'd find a happy medium but what is moderation even So instead, I go to and fro on Mat and the thread has the spectacle of extremely indecisive Kas >> Possible, but I would still expect an Elim or two on the train (insert Bane meme here) - but would agree that with the amount of attention drawn to what they know would be a bad train, I could see a desire to hide in the crowd but also to generally stay off the bad train. But I admit I am not as sure: I still keep hopping between the E/V and V/V/ possibilities and the flip will really help with that I suppose. Still the conflict where my head thinks there's some reason to think Mat Evil, and my heart disagrees strongly. But I think even the thread is divided on this, given my discussion with Archer. Chill cycle indeed, and yeah I've not stayed away as much as I wanted to, but at least it's helping me push through the fog of guilt/overcompensation/stress/doubt, which will hopefully at least free me from analysis paralysis. Ah, but then we'd know they have roleblocks kel approves of this chaos >:D
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It was me, yeah. Low key tempted to follow my views and shift to Devo even though it won't matter anyway.
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A+, I need to learn from this guy Glad it's working well for you. But also thanks, turning the thread into PM space to vibe with everyone has been great too Or at least a good point in a game where I have been not doing so well on overcommitment. Danex apparently is good at being dgaf/detached as an Elim, but I'd need to ask @Archer or @Illwei about that as I recall them mentioning it in passing during AG8 when people were trying to work Danex out? Maybe? IDK it's blurring in my head now. He's not at least on the top of my sus lists. Oh hello there @Dannnex Nice to see you too! Totally down for more RP, this thread has not seen enough RP at all. Going to be honest that my main beef with Karn is just gut off our interaction this cycle, nothing especially solid or strong. But I think even getting Mat's flip would help with both Karn and Devo to some extent. I do share a high credence the Elims have vote manip - I get that AG8 was a troll distro but again, we don't have full sight of the distro, so I feel hesitant to rolelynch/rolesus too far. The fact TJ PAFOs all OoA questions from anyone does increase my credence that it's possible something went badly awry with the NK, but at the same time, why would an OoA put a lynch before a kill? (Unless it has to do with Striker's wincon, or something else, I guess.) Tfw the meme got lost in translation apparently IDK, I like JNV's takes on a general level, though I need to take a closer look at the specifics, and I'm interested that JNV didn't want to vote Devo (the main sus he mentioned, even if a weak sus) but went to Devo after being asked about it. I sort of feel this ambivalence because this sort of happened to me in LG82: Mage (not the Mage you know) was lurking, Archer and I pressured Mage, and Mage swept in with a nice readslist, and then sort of just faded back into the background, and was Evil. I like that JNV did it without prompting, though, because it looks a bit better if you engage without having to be under threat of death, and I like that JNV is voting, because at least that's a track record that can be analysed. Just saying this since my vote will be eaten up anyway, but - I still go to and fro on Devo over our interactions, and probably why I'd hoped to get a better sense for how we think via train negotiations, but it's the Stick context and that exchange that still confuses me, I guess. I get baiting a train, but I feel like if you want to understand what motivates a train, besides baiting, you should be interested in engaging with the people on the train. And I still think that even if you think you and myself were tunnelling on Mat, the contrast in the level of discussion and reasons given for both trains is visceral. I find it hard in light of that to just not engage with the content difference or the voters and to immediately read more activity on a train that had been pretty active for most of the cycle anyway as enemy action. It's not impossible, but feels like you have to skip a few steps to get to that level of inference, I suppose, which is why I am not absolutely certain but I am honestly okay with a LAFO in this context. Same... :/ Edited to add: I asked Araris the question I did because I think he's better at asking himself the What Would The Elim Do question than I seem to be, and I struggle here because to me, if you have V!Mat credences (which is one possibility I considered), then E!Devo tying off with a vote on Stick and refusing to move just seems...odd. I'm trying to understand what is gained by it, or why E!Devo would go for that. I suppose it could be a reaction to Karn coming up, but feels like you could just ignore Karn and not react, on the assumption that's V!Karn? I just don't really understand it. Edited to add 2: I guess on the assumption that E!Karn, there's a sort of connection in target there due to E!Karn pulling from himself onto Stick...
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Ouch What would be the state of your suspicions if - suppose - Stick really does flip Village? (Opposite of the question you asked Aman, I suppose.) Edited to add: Devo, here's a question. Who would you be willing to join a train on, if not Stick today?
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Why leaning Village on Dannex? (Yes, sorry, know I'm saying that a lot but he's firmly a null for me so I'm curious.) Don't look at me, my vote is ideally disappearing into the ether Point. @_Stick_ would like to hear this one. @Devotary of Spontaneity, how have you read/found E!Araris in the past? You mention that you're not feeling good about Araris via connections to Stick, but taking a step back, how have you done so successfully? (Don't think I've had to be on opposite teams dealing with E!Araris as often and presumably you've encountered him more in your playhistory.) Edited to add: @Devotary of Spontaneity - to be clear, not a CV question or a challenge, just wondering aloud given Exp clearly has bad gut on Araris and you also do have some suspicion of Araris, and there's the confounding issue of trying to read Araris.
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I mean, we could ask Karn very nicely not to vote manip, at least I suppose. Though the odds of hitting Karn are not exactly high either, and might even be zero if we are V/E Though that's a fun thought. On the assumption I'm V, I won't get redirected to an E Rioter, and I suppose we could nicely ask fellow V Rioters not to muck the waters up more In order to distribute targets so hostile vote manip struggles, I assume? Yeah - guessing it's a bit late for that at the moment, too. Edited to add: Probably going to ask someone to secure the top train, depending on whether people still feel Devotary. IMO, would be poor repayment for Striker if a bounce hits him and kills him because there are votes on him, and also gives him incentive to defect. Minimally should get Thaid or STINK to retract, if we're giving prima facie plausibility to his neutral claim.
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Nope. That's the problem. That's why I acknowledge it's a longshot. If we're lucky, the vote difference will make it clear who we lost a vote from, but probably wouldn't hurt if we had more self-voting volunteers, I guess. If you have animal crackers, best start sacrificing them to RNGesus :eyes: Not ideal, but at least we'd know their manip distro, I suppose. Spread out in what sense? Edited to add: Was thinking of interfering vote manip - a Soothe or another Rioter could muddy the waters a bit by causing my vote to disappear with no clear sign of an addition, or just stacking interactions. But agreed that watching the votes should be a good first indication.
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According to the clarification I received, Aman's vote moves to Ash. The redirect only affects the voter, not the vote target. I've been careful to RNG for the vote target (i.e. who I'll be traffic marshalling the vote to) from a pool to ensure that people are less likely to try to interfere with the bounce. I'll drop the action before rollover so that if I die, y'all know what went down. What's more interesting :eyes: I can't affect non-voters. So here's a concrete scenario, which might help make things clear for everyone. Suppose my redirect bounces off Striker, and RNG selects Szeth. Because Szeth currently has no vote, the action fails. I will be told that my Riot failed (or at least I won't be told it succeeded) and my vote will not disappear. The real issue is if they kill me, in which case, you basically have to get Archer to ask me if my Riot succeeded. Among other things I suppose. Another interesting fact: TJ has said he is PAFOing every single OoA question, no matter who it comes from. (Even Elims.) Which does make me wonder if - on the assumption there is a proper Elim team - one of them did in fact make a bad assumption and got screwed by OoA, hence no kill. Edited to add: Honestly low key wondering if you guys want to get Karn to do a bounce too.
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Yeah, exactly. I feel like part of this is a casualty of the fact we don't have a flip and discussion is anaemic. I've considered swapping my vote but it's ultimately symbolic since we know my Rioting will destroy my vote anyway. Also fun fact guys, Rioters can't Riot to someone who doesn't have an existing vote on them. Which means that anyone who isn't voted on won't have a mysterious vote appear on them. Edited to add: We good. I put in the order before I could forget, and found out a bunch of fun facts in the process :|
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You think the coordination would work? Because it almost certainly means at least one person will RNG die, so I suppose everyone would have to be cool with that, though I admit it pushes a bit closer to - getting people to do things than I'm comfortable with. (Don't really think it's mayoring per se, but I think it would ethically require collective consent since everyone doing this would be putting their neck on the chopping block, however small the odds are.) Have considered it, yes because the fewer people who vote, the higher likelihood that my current Striker Riot order will fizzle out. But I did want to try to get off the pseudo-scan, yes.
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Fair, that tracks. Appreciate this, reads really not my strength though I should work on it Committing to do a lot of re-assessing especially once the flip comes through, and will do more if I have some time but currently just trying to stimulate discussion (which I can at least do on low bandwidth.) Falcon did say she was pretty busy, so there's that too in terms of activity. Not Devotary, but it's something I also want to go back and look through if I have the time. Just do a basic MO level taxonomy of Archer claim reactions and compare them to what people supposedly know now, and check for anomalies. Could be interesting, since that was a bit helpful for Spiked analysis. If the tab is sort of inactive, or you're idled out, you're not getting updates from the Shard. Oh yeah, Ash - on the A team thing, the main reason I left you out was that Devo focused on the later movements so my thought was that if she believes there's some Evil investment to save Stick, then it has to be someone active in solicitation or just some of the weirder later vote movements and interactions. As you pointed out, your vote was very stable
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Could I ask what those are, or overcommitment problems?
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Think you missed something here, but also, get rest please Hesitant on a potential CC, but can see where that could be appealing. I think the bigger thing is I'd like to see robust discussion since we - admittedly took it easy for half the cycle, I suppose. With the usual caveat on how that is achieved. Even Illwei?
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@|TJ| - Can we get an official VC? Recognise the ambiguity attached to Aman's vote.
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:eyes: :EYES: but also y tho still have to commit to my experience re-eval but i would like 2 know ur thoughts Edited to add: Would it change your thoughts if I told you: I'm claiming to be a Village Epic Mat claimed that Motivators are one-shot use items that allow someone else to use a dead Epic's powers once? (I'm aware it's a long struggle given the thread slog; thank you for staying with us!)
