Pathfinder

Ooooooooh, gotcha, my bad lol

On one hand I would say no to this, because it has been stated that the feminine and masculine arts were not always true, and there was a reason they came about, so I believe spren predate that and wouldn't us that as a defining reason. After all it hasn't been stated anywhere that any order is exclusively one gender or the other. Then again it hasn't said they aren't either. On the other hand, I agree with you because spren do change to reflect the people to a degree, so perhaps a cultural change over the centuries would affect the spren as well

Exactly my point. Either he changes, rationalizing he got away with it and it would destroy his father and what he is trying to build, or he steps up, admits he did it to preserve the innocent's life, and thereby damns his father. No forensic evidence needed.

I have to look to find the place, but I could have sworn there was a scene where you see an ardent with granite like skin and crystal eyes, that they state that she must retire lest she die from further soulcasting. I am ad libbing but I think that is how that scene went down.

@Aether I do agree this has gone off the beaten path quite a bit lol. However I will point out by the last sentence you state, you prove Bloodfalcon's point (I THINK that is who stated it). Your qoute: "if he was taught that non-existence is a worse hell than eternal torture, than I do not have any difficulties believing why he would act and think as he does." Bloodfalcon stated earlier the fact that he continued to kill and obey was a self delusion to protect himself from the possibility of not finding himself in the shin afterlife. That the fear of non-existence was enough that he would continue to sacrifice others in the pursuit of an ideal he himself doubted after fighting kaladin. He would rather kill people as ordered, ensuring him a place in damnation, than stop and be cast to non-existence. Self preservation over innocent life. Cowardice.

Don't the effects eventually kill the person using the soulcaster due to overuse? That would be pretty horrifying.

Could it be the Ardentia? They have tons of knowledge regarding soulcasters, they altered historical texts, they are a group, when they were the Hierachrocy (totally butchered the spelling sorry), they supposedly had foretelling abilities which would explain how they knew who would become radiants. I think there are more reasons, but these are just a few off the top of my head

YES! This must happen at the climatic end of the final book in the Alloy of Law trilogy. Wayne somehow locates his beloved hat, and just as it is about to fall into an abyss and be lost forever, he snatches it from the brink and they live happily every after!

That is kind of a strawman argument. Baring me actually enacting a poll or census where I interview people of faith, I cannot conclusively prove there would be a significant number of individuals that believe based on their religious beliefs that they are going to hell (even assuming they answer honestly). What I can do however is point out given the population of the planet, we can safely assume by probability there is a significant enough that are members of a faith (whatever faith that may be), and of that number there is a significant probability that there is a significant number that DO in fact believe they are going to hell. Regardless whether they will admit it to others or not.

Very true, but I do lean towards Lift's case being unique. After all, the implication is that metabolizing stormlight and being closer to the cognitive realm is a boon she received from the Nightwatcher. So perhaps the potential transformation would be the curse? (Just spitballing at this point)

I hate to do this, because I love imagination and I feel how you see things in a book should hold true to yourself, but I found a quote that sadly refutes this interpretation: Steelheart page 292, David is speaking "Time to die," I whispered. "I think I'll do it while firing a hand-gun at a fifteen-foot-tall suit of powered armor. At least it will be dramatic" Emphasis mine

Hmmm, and another reason Steris could not like Wax is that his "uncouth" manner reminds her of Ranette, and upsets her further. I will need to reread Alloy of Law AGAIN (lol would be the third time), to see how she acts and what she says around him to support this though. I am still skeptical, but I do want to be convinced, it would just be too cool for Steris to end up with Ranette, and thereby Wax ending up with Marasi. Unfortunately then only person left out in the cold would be ole Wayne

Also I wonder if that means Lift will begin to change physically. Wyndle did say she is partially in the cognitive realm, allowing her to metabolize stormlight, as well as interact with him.

@hoser, all excellent points. However I could see someone on Dalinar's side stumbling upon the body, and then being accused because he or she was the first one there. Or given how Dalinar's troops were so ready to do all they could to not help Sadeus way back when Sadeus was head investigator, they ended up damning Dalinar more than helping. So maybe they state something thinking they are protecting Dalinar, but accidentally incriminate themselves? Or perhaps one of them purposely takes credit to protect Adolin, and or Dalinar. Admittedly a lot of this is a stretch and some what predictable though.

I forget what race it was (irali?), but isn't there a race with crystaline finger nails, shadows that point in the wrong direction, and something is up with their eyes? Don't the people that use soulcasters over time start to in some cases get a stoney appearance? Maybe that race is the result of an earlier group of radiants, or normal people that soulcast so much their bodies changed and the change bred true?

Every member of 90 percent of religions currently existing when they argue with atheists over the existence of an afterlife. I forgot how the quote goes, but a priest once told a native tribesman that he must know god and accept him otherwise he would go to hell. The tribesman asked if he had not known god existed, and continued as he did would he have gone to hell? the priest replied no because he would have been ignorant of what he was doing was wrong. the tribesman then asked "then why did you tell me?" edit: @Bloodfalcon, thanks, do you think I should post that theory as its own thread?

Highstorms don't occur in Shin. Or more accurately they can't reach that location. So the next supposition would be could shin warriors have traveled outside shin, died and lost the oath stones and THEN the highstorms carry it. This is possible but I feel unlikely. My theory is that tien is part shin, given his youthful look, and that he is a stone shaman which is why he sees the faces. Whether it is because kals parents adopted him, or through extra marital affairs though I can't say

That makes me think, what if one of the bridgemen, slaves, or a survivor of the Tower DO get blamed instead? It was a death by an ordinary knife, and given if I recall correctly (correct me if I am wrong), Sadeus nor Adolin were wearing their shardplates, so there would be no evidence to point specifically to a shardwielder. So the trial of morality for Adolin could be would he let an innocent take the blame for his own actions, and let that innocent be excecuted? Which in the case of bridgemen, slaves, or military survivors of the Tower would be a guarantee for killing a highprince. Maybe even that choice would determine whether he becomes a knights radiant after all or not.

At the very least it is a very cool concept. Upvote my friend!

@kari-no-sugata, i understand you still need to verify those ideas, and I look forward to seeing your research, but I did just want to point out one thing. The shin view warriors as the lowest of the low. Almost like slaves has more standing in their minds than warriors do. Truthless are even worse. I am not saying they wouldn't have people training with the honor blades, and have a certain group made specifically for that. It does make sense to a degree. What I disagree with is the sense of being a priest. In most religions such a title is one viewed with respect, while what little we know Shin society, such a group would be viewed more as lepers I think. People with the "disease" of combat. Best to stay away from lest one learn such unholy actions. edit: that just made me realize something! I think we have been looking at things the wrong way. Those supporting the oath as honorable have been saying keeping the oath despite the pain he is in is honorable. Those against the oath have been saying by keeping to the oath despite the pain of knowing what he is doing is wrong, is cowardly. I think there is one problem with both interpretations, we are assuming WHY he is in "pain" Killing and combat being wrong is one of the central tenants of his religion. He believes he is in pain for killing people because he was taught he should be. In my mind the equivalency would be the order of monks who would whip/flog themselves for having impure lust filled thoughts. Some would see that as altruistic, so faithful in bringing themselves closer to their god that they would deny themselves certain thoughts and even physically harm themselves to prevent it. Others would see it as cowardly. That instead of facing these emotions, accepting them and living with them, instead this group brutally denies it through masochistic zeal and claims holy doctrine. So I posit the question, does Szeth truly feel remorse, or does he because his SOCIETY tells him he should?

Good point, I did forget about that. Though that still doesn't change my point about him assigning blame. If the trap had been sprung AND THEN he blamed the king, then the chain of logic would be he realized all those people were there cause of the king, and they would have been saved had he not planned the trap. instead, in his mind at the time, he was blaming the people for going about their lives which caused them to end up in his blades path. "oh poor me, i am so horrible because you all had to be in front of me, so i have to kill you. it is so so terrible, that i must kill you, because you chose to be here on this day and thereby are in my way and must die". THEN the king springs the trap, and Szeth then feels some relief cause he can blame the king for the increased deaths easier than on the innocents

double false lol A. He stuck to his convictions long enough to be told he was wrong and cast out. Then when shown he was actually right, he chose to continue to believe a comforting lie than a harsh truth B. You are neglecting the order of his thoughts, I have provided the quotes below: "And....and the king. Szeth spun on the man. Irrationally, his confused, broken mind blamed this man. Why had he called a feast on this night? Why couldn't he have retired early? Why had he invited so many people?" So right there, blamed the king, he said himself irrationally. Blamed the king for living his life. It was the kings fault for holding his court with so many people. The king's fault for not hiding alone, to ease SZETH'S conscious so he wouldn't "have" to kill more people. Only AFTER it dawns on him about the trap, does he thank the king for setting a trap so he can blame him for the deaths, which shows him shoving blame off to others. and btw, him "having" to kill people? same chapter, few paragraphs earlier: "He cut through a man who was drawing his sword-but also sliced through three women who wanted only to escape" So I assume to stop a lone man with a sword, after that wholesale slaughter, he HAD to slice through those women as well? He couldn't have dodged back? Or killed him any of the countless other ways he employed? No, that action showed a level of carelessness. He just....didn't.....care. Which shows how all this "pain" and "anguish" he goes through when he kills people is just a lie he tells himself C. Still Szeth isn't stupid, why would you ask for confirmation from the very person who is ordering you to do horendous stuff? He he trully wanted to hold to his oaths, he would have tried every avenue to verify they were right, INCLUDING finding Kaladin and confronting him first before he did ANYTHING else.

So out of curiosity given this discussion, I typed honor into google to see what would come up. Reading the descriptions, it is almost like Brandon Sanderson did the same thing, and applied each definition to each order. (a stretch I know, but it was fun linking some up lol) See below: hon·or ˈänər/ noun noun: honour; noun: honor 1. high respect; esteem. (Windrunners) "his portrait hangs in the place of honor" synonyms: distinction, recognition, privilege, glory, kudos, cachet, prestige, merit,credit; More antonyms: disgrace a person or thing that brings credit. "you are an honor to our profession" adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct. (Skybreakers) plural noun: honours; plural noun: honors "I must as a matter of honor avoid any taint of dishonesty" synonyms: integrity, honesty, uprightness, ethics, morals, morality, principles,high principles, righteousness, high-mindedness; More antonyms: unscrupulousness, dishonor 2. a privilege. "the great poet of whom it is my honor to speak tonight" synonyms: privilege, pleasure, pride, joy; More antonyms: shame a thing conferred as a distinction, especially an official award for bravery or achievement. (Dustbringers) "the highest military honors" synonyms: accolade, award, reward, prize, decoration, distinction, medal, ribbon,star, laurel More a special distinction for proficiency in an examination. (Elsecaller) plural noun: honours; plural noun: honors "she passed with honors" a class or course of degree studies more specialized than that of the ordinary level. plural noun: honors "an honors degree in mathematics" a title of respect given to or used in addressing a judge or a mayor. (Bondsmith) noun: His Honour; noun: His Honor; noun: Her Honour; noun: Her Honor; noun:Your Honour; noun: Your Honor; adjective: His GOLF the right of teeing off first, having won the previous hole. 3. dated a woman's chastity or her reputation for this. "she died defending her honor" synonyms: chastity, virginity, maidenhead, purity, innocence, modesty; More 4. BRIDGE an ace, king, queen, or jack. possession in one's hand of at least four of the ace, king, queen, and jack of trumps, or of all four aces in no trumps, for which a bonus is scored. plural noun: honors (in whist) an ace, king, queen, or jack of trumps. verb verb: honour; 3rd person present: honours; past tense: honoured; past participle:honoured; gerund or present participle: honouring; verb: honor; 3rd person present:honors; past tense: honored; past participle: honored; gerund or present participle:honoring 1. regard with great respect. "Joyce has now learned to honor her father's memory" synonyms: esteem, respect, admire, defer to, look up to; More antonyms: disrespect pay public respect to. "talented writers were honored at a special ceremony" synonyms: applaud, acclaim, praise, salute, recognize, celebrate, commemorate,commend, hail, lionize, exalt, eulogize, pay homage to, pay tribute to,sing the praises of; More antonyms: disgrace, criticize 2. fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). "make sure the franchisees honor the terms of the contract" synonyms: fulfill, observe, keep, obey, heed, follow, carry out, discharge,implement, execute, effect; More antonyms: disobey accept (a bill) or pay (a check) when due. "the bank informed him that the check would not be honored"

Oooooooooh, ok then that just means it comes down to a differing of opinion/perspective. From what I understand of what you say, being honorable is rigidly holding to a code, I disagree because just codes enacted by man are by definition fallible and as shown can be wrong. Based on our views (as Aether did point out earlier), neither is exactly wrong, we just see honor differently. Same deal here too, horribly maiming someone instead of killing them still doesn't change he is bringing harm to people holding to their own beliefs. I mean he has no verifiable proof that his oath holds any greater precedent of law than the people who he kills, and in fact because it is in error, it shows how problematic it is. edit: because literally it is shown what he did was wrong, that everything he based his oath on was a lie, and he killed all those people for no reason. that his oath was meaningless and he made the world worse by following it. he was literally the case that disproved the rule. Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 387973120 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 486439216 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

I think we are getting confused here. My example was in response to your comment shown below, emphasis mine My point is as long as he holds a honorblade and those he fight hold no magic, it is NOT a fair fight and by your own statement NOT honorable. When he went up against Dalinar who was almost a radiant by that point, that is ALMOST a fair fight. When he went up against Kaladin THAT is a fair fight. They both held radiant powers. They didn't even have to hold the SAME radiant powers, but Kaladin would have a fighting chance. There are numerous times Szeth says to himself how those he fights have NO CHANCE of beating him because of his blade and what he can do. I was just pointing out that by your own logic, if a fair fight constitutes being honorable, then Szeth is NOT honorable because he has rarely been in a fair fight throughout the books. Please clarify what time frame we are talking regarding him not killing anyone who wasn't actively defending themselves. There were numerous assassinations where his targets fled, and I don't believe defending oneself from getting killed nullifies his intention to now kill cause he wants to. Not sure I understand your rationale in that.