Pathfinder

The metals are just a gateway to preservation. It has the advantage that that means you can tap preservation anywhere meanwhile some of the other magics need hacks to access it, but it is still reaching out to the shard.

I personally got the sense that the Stormfather does not create the storms, just oversees them. So when there was a clash on the shattered plains, he forced the storm to come earlier, and said he is sorry, it was all he could do. That doesn't sound like someone that can just snap its fingers and make them happen.

The point I was making, is that trying to figure out the why Scadrial would or would not attack Roshar is utterly all conjecture. During the AoL portion, Scadrial does not know Roshar even exists nor do we know the state of Roshar at that time. So we have nothing to draw upon to give an accurate idea of what could or could not lead to a war between the two. The only thing we do know is: How, in any shape or form, is that not a declaration of war? Harmony is Why is it so far fetched to think that Scadrial wouldn't just roll over and let it, or fight a purely defensive war? Given all the aggressor has done, it is as you mentioned, standard Sun Tzu tactics to begin mounting an offensive. The whole reason I mentioned Odium ruling Roshar, is as of AoL we have no idea what the result of the everstorm is. It could have changed every parshendi everywhere on the planet resulting in a coordinated revolt in the millions. This would not be the first time an entire planet of people were nearly wiped out in a story to somehow restart later on (cough mistborn cough). So as far as we know, the humans of Roshar could almost be completely wiped out and the war is actually with Odium and voidbringers. That is most certainly a reason to go to war. To save other humans, and stop a force bent on cosmeric domination. So once again, we have no idea what either side's motivations, economy, society, or state would be in this war concept. Which is why I agree with Voidus, we should focus on the practical aspects of two armies going toe to toe, rather than if they would at all. edit: sorry if this sound condescending, but it is like having a thread say "who would win, kaladin or vin?" and then someone say "well I cannot think of a reason they would fight, as they are both good people and have no motivation to want to kill each other". It doesn't answer the question, just negates the question to begin with.

Just a point of clarification Moash gets both shardblade and shardplate. So as far as we know you could become lighteyed just from plate, or just from blade. In regards to the heralds, as you said Taln may have darkeyes normally, but have light eyes when actively using his powers/honorblade just like Kaladin and Szeth, which would be more likely when people would see him as he saves them from the voidbringers vs relaxing sociably with other heralds/radiants. My own personal theory is that in the old world, fighters (radiants and thereby lighteyes), were meant to serve the people (farmers, and thereby darkeyes). Something happened when the radiants fell, that may have resulted in resentment. So when they gave up their shards, and people grabbed them up, they thought of only themselves and power. So then as you said, since the shards turned peoples eyes light, then light eyes became associated with power and became the dominant system. So you go from a battle centered nation of Alethkar aiming to serve and protect all other nations, to a war centered nation aiming to rule and control all other nations.

What subjugation war? If hypothetically it was Odium as I wrote, it would be a war of self preservation. The early attacks are of subterfuge, but we have no idea what state Roshar is in at the time of AoL. Like I said, for all we know, voidbringers could be the dominate life form at that point and once they realize spys and undermining don't work, they would have an army of their own to wipe out Scadrial. The Scadrialians, much like in the analogy I posited, would then take the war to Roshar. But again, this is all pure conjecture on both our parts. Just in your opinion it is farther fetched that a war could start than in my opinion.

In the books Syl says he brought it earlier than usual, but functioned the same in all other ways.

When Moash got his own shardplate, his dark brown eyes became a light glowing almost tan. So there is a definite color difference.

So this involves a lot of bands of mourning spoilers so I will put a lot of my responses there: Scadrialians are peace loving? So the people outside the basin that were talking about organizing and attacking the Elendel Basin are peaceful? The war would unite them for the reasons I wrote in the spoiler, and btw a peace loving people do not develop guns. Part of the problem with all this, is as stated, there is a rather large gap for Roshar due to the next 3 books in the stormlight archive. Roshar could have been laid waste to by the everstorm and there be a tenth of the population left. Or Dailinar could have rallied the peoples, and now have an army of radiants. The level of technology could be the same, or the dawnshards could have been found/understood or whatever the crem they are. The heralds could have been "fixed" and start training radiants. Tons of things could have happened that would affect what Roshar could do, field, and act on. So to say the Stormfather would do this or that, or could do this or that, and the voidbringers would do this or that is impossible. Storms the stormfather could be dead by the time of AoL. The voidbringers could be ruling the planet, while humanity is trying to hide and slowly build a resistance. Rosharians could welcome Scadrialians and beg them to help. So I feel the only way this could really be discussed, is as Knight Oblivion has stated I think twice, is set definable parameters. What is the level of tech on each side. What resources does each side have. Where does it take place. And honestly forget about the reason why they are fighting because there isn't any concrete evidence that either side would even want/need/or intend to fight. I took this as a mental exercise. A what if. What if scadrial fought roshar. Who would win with what they currently have? At least that is how I approached this whole thing. again apology before hand if i come off crass, confrontational or curt. Balancing a few things as I type lol edit: how about this, can anyone figure out based on timelines, what version of roshar existed during mistborn? Stormlight archive does reference how life was years, if not centuries preceding the current in book timeline. Would that solve this issue? Then we could compare where each stands coterminous.

Not sure how giant, slow moving, "islands" would help in the war effort? if that was what you were aiming for by bringing it up that is I dunno. Even if they could figure out how to harness the mists, they tend to come out randomly to refuel the gems, or radiants, while allomancers and feruchemists can use their abilities at any point as long as they have metal in their stomach. Still doesn't seem like a sustainable beach head. I tried re-reading the subsequent posts since I posted last for a third time, and I agree you covered all the repeated points rather fully, and I would just be frustrating myself by reiterating them all over again. The only thing I feel you missed, was my response regarding a coinshot enhanced by a nicrosil not being torn apart without pewter as per quotes I provided from the books, and I feel we cannot really say whether or not Scadrial would have a reason to go to war as up until bands of mourning, there wasn't a possible "opposing" nation. Given that one of the prevailing theories regarding Otherwise like I said, you pretty much succinctly reiterated all the repeated points, and I would rather not waste my time just repeating myself. Thanks! edit: Kevino, if you still feel despite this list, points you have stated have not been seen to, please make one post where you lay out a list of your points and I will respond to them fully, or reference specific post and page in this thread where such a point has already been seen to. Thank you.

Thanks for the WoB! I could have sworn Bavadin had been referred to as a he somewhere but couldn't remember. Also given we still do not know who the woman is in the "voidbinding" version of the eye of the almighty (theories say Cultivation, but nothing concrete yet), then this woman doesn't necessarily mean she is the shard either.

Could be, though the figure comes off very feminine to me that I think it is a woman, while hasn't Bavadin been referred to as a man? Or am I just mis-remembering?

So again I step away for the night, to come back to 3 pages in my absence lol. I am debating whether to do another monster post since as CaptainRyan has pointed out, a lot of the issues brought up by Kevino have been brought up before and have been responded to. So I am unsure if responding to them again holds any merit.

Something funny I just realized. The two things we want to compare most (allomancers and shardbearers capabilities), are exhibited most by two characters mentioned as unique for their group. Vin and Dalinar.

Sorry, the way I wrote it was vague. I believe if Vin pushed the honorblade away with a duralumin push, he would still be able to use stormlight and its abilities, but as I type this, I just remembered, it has been said in the books that honorblades don't dissipate when dropped. So that does make me wonder if he would be able to still use the abilities. I think he would, because he is bonded to it, and does not have to summon the blade to use its abilities, but it does certainly present a head scratcher if it is already summoned and knocked away. Hmmmmm

The glowing was from calamity himself, and the reason it shown was like steelheart turning chicago into steel, he turned the space station into glass. So the radiance of the red "star" was calamity himself. Now regarding the orbit, it could be that he kept it in place preventing it from orbiting the planet. But that is my own guess, not anything specifically stated in the book that I can recall off the top of my head.

So side note, I think the big reason shardblades are preferred over hammers, is because other than their size, they are just normal. Shardblades can cut through them easily and was a tactic that Elit was concerned Adolin would use during the bout. Now to answer your question, yes the hammer did hit Adolin. See below: Words of Radiance page 660 Kindle Edition Elit swung, hammer crashing into Adoin's side. Plate cracked, and the blow shoved Adolin off balance Now if I recall correctly, it takes roughly two or three strikes from a shardblade to the same spot to shatter it. During Adolin's earlier bout with Elit one on one, he playfully hit multiple spots, cracking it just to drain it of stormlight: Word of Radiance page 618 Kindle Edition The man tested forward, and Adolin slapped the Blade away, then brought in a backhand and clipped Elit's forearm. It, too, started to leak Stormlight. So it seems in both cases, one strike from either a shardblade or oversized hammer would crack shardplate enough to leak. Now this of course is concerning individuals in shardplate themselves, which is not what the OP was asking. However: Word of Radiance page 617 Kindle Edition Adolin slapped away Elit's Shardblade with his forearm. Shardbearers didn't use shields - each section of Plate was stronger than stone. So I believe personally based on those quotes there is not an inherent boon with shardblades against shardplate. Simply it is the enhanced strength bestowed from shardplate that allows the additional force to drive blade or hammer down to damage it.

Pretty much everything IndigoAjah said. My example was in regards to kill squads for shardbearers like hazekillers for mistborns. What kind of competent commander or unit would sent their group at what amounts to a tank one at a time? The point was a coordinated attack. Add to that you state the shardbearer would have guards. Yes they would have normal, everyday no ability human guards. That can get picked off by the coinshot in a few seconds, between using the nicroburst to disarm the shardbearer, while downing vials of steel from his or her bandoleer. The alternative is a full army marching, as they are mowed down by bullets, as mentioned earlier in this thread, still leaving shardbearers alone. And regarding just resummoning the blade. I was given the impression we are discussion shardbearers as in any old soldier in shardplate and shard blade. If that is the case, then to resummon, takes 10 heartbeats. As shown in Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, a lot can happen in 10 heartbeats. Alethi troops tend to wear leather armor. Warform seems to be more similar to chain or light plate. Still doesn't mean they weigh as much as was argued.

You are thinking of Nightblood. He cuts all three.

Vin can push on all metals in Miles body with a duralumin push, so he wouldn't be able to heal anymore, and also using the same push to knock the honorblade away from Szeth, and crush his skull preventing him from healing. Though his other abilities would prove an issue.

Not saying anyone's interpretation is wrong or right, but I figured how about I actually post the scenes for reference. Here they are: Well of Ascension page 15 kindle edition: Her preoccupation with the Watcher nearly cost her her life as an unoticed Thug charged her from the side. it was the man whose legs she'd slashed. Vin reacted just in time to dodge his blow. This, however, put her into range of the other three. All attacked at once. She actually managed to twist out of the way of two of the strikes. one, however, crashed into her side. The powerful blow tossed her across the street, and she collided with the shop's wooden door. She heard a crack - from the door, fortunately, and not her bones - and she slumped to the ground, daggers lost. A normal person would be dead. her pewter-strengthened body, however, was tougher than that. Well of AScension page 493 kindle edition: Vin kicked up the staff of the man she'd just killed, catching it. A Coinshot cried out as she growled and dashed toward them, spinning her weapon. One had the presence of mind to Push off the bleachers and launch himself away. Vin's weapon still caught him in midair, throwing him to the side. The next swing took down his companion, who had tried to dash away. Also while I am at it, some instances where Vin just burned steel or iron with duralumin without pewter. Now it could be said that Sanderson just didn't mention pewter at those moments but in the previous scenes, three times he made a point to mention pewter every time she pushed or pulled on something with duralumin, needing to burn it to not be crushed. So it would seem rather unlike Sanderson to make a point to do it three times, but then forget to do it twice Well of Ascension page 568 kindle edition Vin ducked down as the waves of men surrounded her. She turned her head up, eyes closed, and burned duralumin. Then she Pulled. Stained glass windows set in metal frames inside their arches exploded around the room. She felt the metal frames burst inward, twisting on themselves before her awesome power. She imagined twinkling slivers of multicolored glass in the air. She heard men scream as glass and metal hit them, embedding in their flesh Well of Ascension page 568 kindle edition She Pushed against a broken metal frame, throwing herself over the heads of soldiers, landing outside the large circle of attackers. The outer line of men was down, impaled by the glass shards and twisted metal frames. Vin raised a hand and bowed her head. Duralumin and steel. She Pushed. The world lurched. Vin shot out into the mists through a broken window as she Pushed against the line of corpses impaled by metal frames. The bodies were thrown away from her, smashing into the men who were still alive in the center. LOL, I kid you not. He said it the first time we all hung out at comic con. He said if he ever had his life story told, he would want me to narrate it.

LOL ironically my fiance's cousin jokes all the time that he could listen to me talk for hours because, and I quote "sound like a white Morgan Freeman" and thank you for the compliment as well Thank you for the compliment. Just one thing I wanted to clarify. The momentum thing is regarding two different scenes. When Vin was smacked by the thug, sending her flying, she was stationary. The reason I brought up steel was to say she didn't "roll with" the punch using steel to fly away from the attack. She was plain and simple smacked from standing to across the street. In the scene I brought up momentum, a coinshot in the audience went to fly away. She came up and smacked him as he was in midair, altering his course so the side. If what you said stands for that still, then I defer to greater physics knowledge than I could ever hope to have. I just didn't want the two scenes to merge confusing the issue.

Good i am glad Sorry to digress, but just to respond to your points. Tin increases all of your senses. So you could literally feel the tiniest of air disturbance to judge bullet trajectory with wind resistance. You would be able to spot the enemies far before they see you, all without the tell tale glint or glare of a scope. And anyone trained can do the maths, tin would just augment the training. With steel and iron you do not have to "see" or theoretically have reflexes to shoot the bullet casings. It is not a muscle you are using. It is an effort of will. It is commented in the book how Vin could fly pushing on steel lines without fully seeing them or consciously focusing on them. It is built into the magic to help the user. So I would see shooting off the bullet casings as easier than blinking, and takes even less physical effort. Pewter burners need less water and food while they burn, hence the endurance. Their bodies plain and simple in every way can go longer with less than everyone else. I think you are underestimating what a pewter burner can carry with minimal effort Back to topic, I agree. Guns are far more prevalent, and can be mass produced, so more can be fielded to shoot down a shardbearer.

so this one is gonna be a long one, because although I showed you the quotes, you did not fully reference the scenes so here we go: She did not use steel to fly with the hit. Read the scene. She got hit, got thrown across the street, and hit the ground hard. Pewter the only reason she didn't break any bones.Also the thug hits her with a dueling cane. As in uses his arm. Unless you skip leg day at the gym, your leg muscles are always far stronger than your arm muscles. So you are going to get more air from a kick than a punch. So you say hitting a body at rest is harder than changing the direction of a body in motion? Push a car in neutral. Then push a car away from you that is rolling towards you (no gas, just rolling). You mean to tell me pushing the stopped car is easier than pushing an oncoming car away from you? You have to account for the kinetic energy already in the push, as well as it was a sustained push to make the coinshot fly. So she was wacking him out of midair, against his weight and momentum. That is your guess. Warform has never been weighed. We do know irish wolfhounds average between 140 to 180 pounds. Vin picked the biggest and meanest she could, and you have oresuer who altered the musculature so he could keep up with Vin with running and jumping. You know of any dog on earth that could leap up a story on a building? Kal's men were able to move parshendi warform without comment of "wow this thing is heavy". And if warform is so significantly heavier, then their legs would have to take up most of their body just to leap the chasms. So I feel you are grossly overestimating the weight of warform. Again, pewter is close. It doesn't have to equate to a shardplate. There are more pewter thugs than shards to be bared. I never argued it had to be able to go toe to toe with shardplate. Just be close enough that one would be a problem. Then three could take them out. So refers back to my earlier points. Parshendi aren't as heavy as you think, he sent them tumbling like zane sent oresuer. Also consider how it is written. It says what a shardplate could do. But you take it as assumption that it stated what that kick did do. Reread the scene. He was surrounded by Parshendi. They were right in his face. He swung a 7 foot long blade to clear some space and then kicked the corpses into them. If he had 30 feet of space to kick the corpse, he would not have needed to kick it. So the kick that sent the bodies flying, was not punting them 30 feet. The scene says had he the space, and the inclination, he could kick a parshendi 30 feet tumbling. Just....like....Zane. Now I shall reiterate a point I made later, but because of formating I actually wrote this post from bottom up, but Kaladin was able to take on two shard bearers with only stormlight and shatter their plate. Three thugs on one shardbearer I do not think is any contest and that it would favor the pewter thugs. So the shardbearer is focusing on holding on to the sword and bracing themself by squaring their feet in response to the push, while the leecher taps the back of the armor, draining all the stormlight. Thug then removes helm and crushes the vunerable persons skull. Much like an octopus eating a crab lol. So the full scene with Renarin is he goes up one floor, jumps out 10 feet into the air, and then falls into the sand. A person without shardplate could survive that with bruises, and a broken bone or two depending on how they land. Then he gets up surprised he didn't break anything. Doesn't say he didn't get bruised up or hurt. Just surprised no broken bones. The point of the exercise is to teach Renarin its limits. To learn shardplate protects you, but you are still a squishy ball of organs inside it. Next, we see a leecher shut down Nazh's spirit gun temporarily. And she has no idea what it was or how it worked. We also have WoB that a leecher could potentially do so with metal minds as well. I do not think it is a stretch at all that a leecher could drain the stormlight from a shardplate leaving it a giant paperweight. Have you ever fought with a sword? Or played baseball and swung a bat? Try gripping it firmly and then swing in various patterns, while holding your grip completely firm. You would only be capable of a few chopping motions, and even those would be limited. You most definitely could not do the broad swings a shardblade typically employs while holding so firmly. Now also take into account as it was pointed out, the pushes and pulls are invisible forces you cannot watch for. A coinshot or lurcher does not need to extend their hand or do anything that would outwardly hint they are about to push or pull on the blade. So it is either grip the shardblade firmly, limiting your range of motion, and significantly slowing down your attacks, or risk any moment you change the direction of your blade, it will go flying out of your hand. Vin needed pewter when pushing against objects far heavier than herself which is why it nearly tore apart her body. There are plenty of times she did a duralumin steel push without pewter and lived to tell the tale. If you don't believe me, then I will locate it in book during lunch at 1 and post it (but i do need to do some work lol). Now admittedly this is my own interpretation, but I see the WoB regarding pushing on a shardblade to mean, in order to affect a shardblade like any other sword, you need duralumin or nicrosil. Plenty of characters have used steel to push on swords without any anchor to deadly results. So the only issue would be the shardbearer's grip on the blade as mentioned, which I already replied to. During combat you cannot be vigilant 100 percent of the time to something you cannot even see even if you know to expect it. Especially when fighting a pewter arm whose descriptions of fighting, mirrors stormlight (weapons blurring in speed, leaping 7 feet effortlessly, reacting to and deflecting weapons like the opponent is moving at a snails pace. All scenes in mistborn from a thug attacking Elend and Vin) Actually 1.5 is in regards to wielding two handed weapons with both hands. When a creature with greater size wields a two handed weapon, it is treated as one handed and loses the strength bonus to damage. Then again I am basing what I am saying on 3.5 rules. Kaladin using only stormlight was able to move faster than a shardbearer swinging their blades. Steelrunners run fast enough that they get bullet time. The only hard limit on them is wind resistance and the force on their body when they strike something which both issues have been responded to. Wind resistance would come into play at far higher speeds (breaking the sound barrier for instance), and the force on their body is negligible if they only have to slide a knife into an eye, and then use a shardblade to sweep through human bodies. It would only be an issue if the speedster used the shardblade on another shardplate. Then the force would break their arm Ok I think that covered all the points I missed. Whew! This might be my longest post ever! lol edit: also I apologize if I came off short or derisive at any point in my post towards anyone. It is a lot of text that I wrote, with not much space to view it in window, so it is difficult to edit, nor do I have the time to adequately edit it. So please no one take what I write personal.

Wow, get swamped with work, leave the forums for one day, and have to come back and catch up with 2 to 3 pages of back and forth. I am going to double post because in the next I am going to attempt to respond to everyone.....This is going to take awhile lolol (and probably there will be another page of posts added in the meantime lol)

Actually I feel like that really rings true. Would make sense why windrunners and skybreakers have such issues with each other. Everyone after all is guilty of something.