Pathfinder

Thank you for your post! This is exactly what I was referring to by asking for input in editing the three theories! So first, regarding Evi and Dalinar being an arranged marriage while Gavilar and Navani are not. My impression was the argument was Navani went with the "better" choice materially in that she would be Queen, instead of betrothed to the younger brother. That she went with the "head" instead of her "heart", but I can see how stating it was an arranged marriage would be a misnomer, so I have no problem correcting/editing the original post and will do so after I finish responding. Second, will add this point under the theory that coincides with it. Third, will add this as well. Fourth, I think part of the argument in favor of that was that Kaladin was pushing down his feelings for Shallan in favor of Adolin as Dalinar pushes down his feelings for Navani in favor of Gavilar. I will add that, but also include an addendum that that was my understanding of what was said. If more people disagree, I will edit that out. Fifth, personally not a fan of Jasnah and Kaladin because of a whole list of reasons that I do not want to digress this post about. So suffice to say, I respect your interest in it, I wish you luck with your theory (I won't be devastated if they do get together because I am sure Brandon will do a wonderful job of it), but personally I do not prescribe to it. Sixth, I will not reply to this portion as I do not believe this part was directed at me. Thank you again for your response!

No problem, though to clarify my point is regardless whether you are normal, mist born, or radiant, you do not require a spike in order to communicate with Ruin, nor necessarily anything stronger to communicate with Odium. Kelsier shows that in Secret History. The beggar was an average run of the mill human with no powers, and yet Kelsier could speak with him because he was "open". As I said, same thing with Vin's mother. So I am not saying someone who is mistborn intrinsically will be able to communicate with a shard, nor am I saying that of radiants. Balat can be a normal run of the mill human and still be influenced/talked to by a shard as long as he is "open" to it.

Sorry to nitpick but if you refer to page 2, Naurok said: "Maybe since Adolin is the one that won Maya and has forged some sort of connection over the years maybe through this rebirth she instead becomes a spren to fit Adolin's personality instead of him being fit for any specific Order. Like a mix of Edgedancer and Skybreaker, receiving the surges of Division and Abrasion or Progression and Gravitation (I prefer the first pair)." Which is in line with the subject matter. CrazyRioter responded: "And Adolin is definitely not a Skybreaker type." So the subject matter was in line within the thread, and CrazyRioter did in fact say Adolin could not be a skybreaker. So my response was inline with the thread. However, I think I made my point rather well that Adolin could be a skybreaker, or stoneward, or any other radiant order if so inclined based on WoB so I have no problem dropping the subject if you would like to change the topic.

Ruin did not only need a spike in a person to influence them. Vin's mother was influenced because she was "unhinged". Kelsier was able to communicate with a beggar for the same reason. Odium could influence Sadeas's men because they were "open" to it (by his own words when the spren possess them). So spikes are not a requirement for Ruin. It just makes it easier.

At this point I must admit I am rather frustrated. Had you read my post, you would already know it is not my own mind nor opinion. I presented three theories I heard of based on that WoB for completeness so they could all be represented. The very first sentence of that post stated I did not support nor oppose any of them. My request for additional input was only so I would not in error misrepresent anyone else's argument in that matter. You have persisted across multiple posts in trying to engage me in a debate on adolin, shallan and kaladin when that was never my intention to begin with. I have had to literally go back to the original post and bolded the portions and still they have been ignored. So at this stage I will not longer continue discourse with you. Thank you.

Could you provide a WoB that confirms "the only thing that's been sustaining the heralds this long has been the investiture that's become apart of them thanks to the oathpact" I only ask for clarity because from what I understand it could have just have been as easily the heralds swore the oathpact, and in order to help them uphold it, honor then suffused them with investiture to make them cognitive shadows. So correlation but not causation. If there is a WoB, then I readily admit I was out of the loop on that and defer to additional information.

I will reply to you both in one go but tagged both so both will see. I will need to locate the WoB, but Brandon has commented that Skybreakers admit anyone who hold strongly to a personal code. That code can take varying forms. This results in even skybreakers disagreeing with each other. Adolin's code what he felt there was a strict definition of right and wrong, and that Sadeas breaks that sense of morality and that he would continue to do so. So like Szeth executing the warden at purelake, Adolin executed a repeat offender (in his mind). Adolin also does not view what he did as murder. To be clear I am not arguing that Adolin will become a skybreaker over an edgedancer. My point is only to say that the order should not be excluded from consideration. edit: found it. WoB below and pertinent part bolded for reference IHeartMyKitten Would Szeth still have been chosen to be a skybreaker if Nalan'Elin had known that Szeth was willing to kill Adolin "on his own time" unlawfully without being compelled by his oathstone? Or did Nalan'Elin know about that and still think he'd be a good fit? Brandon Sanderson Nobody is perfect, and Nale knows this--but he has worse days than others. It's not so much the law, as willingness to follow a personal code, that Nale is most interested in. He's also more harsh with people once they join the order than before. So, he wouldn't have loved it, but it wouldn't have stopped him from offering. edit: LOL in the span of attempting to locate the other WoB where it states about two skybreakers not agreeing, i came across a WoB where Brandon states how Spensa could potentially fall into both edgedancers and skybreakers Phantine Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes: If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best? Brandon Sanderson Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer. and found the other WoB lupicorn I had a question about what it means to swear the Ideal of Law. Several fans have told me it means to define the law, in the Nixon, "when the president does it, that means it is not illegal," sort of way. I interpret it as becoming the embodiment of the law such that they can't willingly violate any law without breaking their oaths. Do either of these interpretations hit the mark? Nale seems to follow the law more so than most and that doesn't just seem like a personal preference. Brandon Sanderson I would say that both of these interpretations could work for a given Skybreaker, which is why there is disagreement among the order itself. Perception is a big part of the oaths. I wouldn't want to squish this discussion by offering too much on one side or the other, as this is exactly where I want the conversation to be going right now

Lift and Szeth seem to get along quite well to me and they are an edgedancer and skybreaker respectively. Szeth killed quite a few people while holding to a persona code. Adolin killed Sadeas while holding to a personal code. Brandon said maybe. That does not preclude him from potentially attracting a skybreaker spren

I am sorry, you are still mis-understanding the entire purpose of my post. let us say one person mentions an intersection is dangerous because people speed through it. I then say, "hey there are two other arguments regarding that intersection, I shall present all three. they are: 1. it is dangerous because cars speed through it 2. it is dangerous because people do not look when they cross 3. the intersection is not dangerous, you are looking at too close a time period when compared to other streets Individual comes along and says "hey i believe the intersection is dangerous because cars are speeding through it, but you forgot to add that it tends to be sports cars that drive through, which makes it even more dangerous". Ah I see, then I will edit number one to read 1. it is dangerous because sports cars tend to frequent that intersection at high speeds I explained this all at the end of that original post. I do stress to read the entirety of it before responding, as this negates the reason for me to respond to the rest of your points as they do not apply to my post.

You are reading it wrong. Those are three separate views deriving from the WoB, so they are not meant to coincide with each other. As to your comments, are you a proponent of the arguments you are commenting on? What I mean by anything to add, I mean lets say you said "All school buses are yellow". I then say "Vuko said all buses are yellow". You then say to me "that is not what I said. to clarify I am only stating all school buses are yellow" , to which I then acknowledge my mistake, and correct the post. So by commenting on choosing between two people, are you saying I should word it differently to better represent that argument? When you ask about a surface connection between Adolin and Shallan, are you saying you believe what is between Adolin and Shallan is superficial but you have more descriptors to support that assertion? When you state that WoB are you speaking to me or to Quantus? edit: to add one more bit of clarity. It sounds to me that you are of the camp that feel Shallan and Adolin should be together. Based on that, do you have anything to add to the third theory that says Adolin understands Shallan better than Kaladin in the context of the mimicing? Did how I write it mis-represent that argument in anyway that I can then improve?

You are predicating your statement on the assumption that the blade absorbing investiture acts exactly like Dalinar using a gemstone to capture an unmade. Brandon has commented on how the knife could be seen as hemalurgy in a manner. If you spiked out something from a person, could you just give it back? Now I know your response will be "see! you said spike something! not the whole person!" but we do not know the full limits of hemalurgy. We do not know its effect on a cognitive shadow. We do not know.... Basically I am saying we do not know enough to say it cannot work that way. Hope that helps clarify it.

For quite some time the argument went something to the effect of "I think Adolin could be "enter order here"", to which the response was "You are wrong, Adolin only shows the attributes that could be attributed to a Releaser". My point is we cannot conclusively say Adolin cannot fit in other orders. The oaths are too open to interpretation. My other point was even if he was to bond Maya, that does not change that he could have potentially have bonded a different order, considering as evidenced in Kaladin, as well as Ym, spren of other orders would still express interest even after they had bonded. Also it has been confirmed via WoB that a radiant can bond multiple spren. They would not prefer it, and it would be difficult to maintain multiple oaths, but again just because you bond one order, does not mean you could not possibly ever have bonded any other order. In summation, if you feel you have evidence that leads you to believe Adolin fits edgedancers, then that is great. But evidence of one order does not prevent or cancel out the possibility of other orders. Hope that clarified things.

And up until the revelation of Maya being an Edgedancer blade everyone was so sure that Adolin could only be a Releaser. Just saying we can't close any possibilities, even if he does bond Maya, because we have seen that multiple orders do pursue the same person. edit: To illustrate, Kaladin exemplifies the windrunners in every way. Yet Syl commented on how Kaladin was sounding more like a skybreaker at one point. Another time Syl smacked away a glory spren saying to it "he's mine". We see glory spren tend to hang out around Bondsmiths (like how creation spren around lightweavers, logic spren around elsecallers, and wind spren around windrunners). Finally we could easily say there have been countless times where Kaladin has taken up hopeless causes and fought them anyway (stonewards). That right there are 4 orders (Windrunners, Bondsmiths, Skybreakers, and Stonewards) just going off the top of my head without even digging further into the character and the other potential radiant orders.

Eh, still stating it that way can be a very loaded gun. You see the marriage as a good thing. There are those that do not. There are those that see Kaladin and Shallan as a good thing. Them seeing Kaladin and Shallan as a good thing does not mean they want "something good to end soon". Also there are those that do not think Oathbringer is the end of it. Either way that is immaterial to the theory and WoB I posted. As you said, it is still your opinion. Your interpretation. The people who posited those three theories interpreted the WoB in those ways, and considering it was brought up, there are clearly people who still believe as much. That doesn't support your assertion that just because it could be applied in three different combinations that the theory is not valid (which was your initial response to me). I feel like you want to start a discussion/argument with me about why Shallan and Adolin should remain together when that was not the purpose of my post at all. I was only presenting the three theories. Do you have anything to add to clarify any of the three I presented? Otherwise feel free to discuss your thoughts on Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin with anyone else on this thread who would wish to continue to discuss it. I just suggest staying away from verbiage that would imply a negative connotation to views differing than your own. Hopefully that came out as neutral as it was intended.

A cognitive shadow is investiture and the WoB does state Jezeren's soul, so it could be deduced that the cognitive shadow was in fact sucked into the blade to prevent rebirth.

Please re-read my original post. I am not advocating the theory, nor any particular argument of the theory. The theory came up, so for completeness I presented all three. The theory is predicated on that WoB. If you do not think the WoB is applicable that is your right, but that does not intrinsically invalidate the individuals who hold to the theory based on that WoB. In other words, it is not not mirroring just because you feel the WoB isn't as strongly linked as you would prefer. Hopefully that clarified things. edit: also where does "not everything good needs to end as soon as it started" come in? There is a theory in there having Adolin and Shallan being together, and there is one having Shallan and Kaladin be together. You are entitled to believe one couple is "good" over the other, but that does not mean the people who hold the opposing view wants to "end" something "good".

I was responding to the WoB you referenced indicating that Adolin would have trouble finding membership with the Skybreakers. I explained why I do not think that would be too great a barrier.

it is mirroring because as per WoB, Brandon said he wanted to mirror something in the past. Individuals then interpreted it in those three manners. Just because there could be multiple interpretations does not invalidate the theory. WoB below: Questioner Is Adolin and Shallan going to get together, or will Kaladin and Shallan? Brandon Sanderson That is quite the question. I will eventually answer that, but you are getting Read-and-Find-Outed. It is intentionally a bit of a mimicry of something else that happened in the past.

As the oaths and the ideals associated to them can be very open ended and open to interpretation, theoretically you could make an argument for any individual to be a good version for any order. Couple that with the fact that we do know multiple spren from multiple orders do "court" the same individual (Ym with the Truthwatchers and Edgedancers for instance), and I do not think we can conclusively say anyone "cannot" be a member of any order. Brandon in the WoB you quote even says that they might have trouble with that. That does not preclude other situations arising that would result in Adolin being favorable, or a particular skybreaker spren thinking to bond him in contrary to the other spren (as seen with Szeth).

To clarify I will list all three theories regarding the "mirroring" and a brief break down on the proponents reasons for them. I also stress I do no prefer nor believe any one over the other, merely stating them for completeness Shallan = Navani - Choosing between two people. Kaladin = Dalinar - Both commented on their intensity, passion and gruffness. Both push down their emotions for the other party (Adolin - Gavilar) (this portion was my understanding of the argument, if in error, please let me know and I will edit it out.) Share deeper connection Adolin = Gavilar - Both marriages based on what the union can materially provide, nobility, clean cut. Share surface connection Shallan = Dalinar - Choosing between two people Kaladin = Navani - Both express interest, but hold back due to the other party involved (Adolin - Evi). Both feel everyone is pushing the other two to get together (Shallan - Dalinar and Adolin - Evi). Both share deeper connection with their love interest Adolin = Evi - Both arranged marriage, with disparate personalities of their love interest. Both change their respect partner, whether intentional or unintentional (Shallan - Dalinar) Shallan = Navani - Choosing between two people Kaladin = Gavilar - Now that Kaladin is a radiant, from the outside he is viewed as the better and surer choice, but does not truly understand her Adolin = Dalinar - Now that he is not a radiant and a prince falling from grace, from the outside he is viewed as the lesser and less desirable choice, but truly does understand her. If I have mis-represented any of these, please feel free to let me know and I will update/edit the post. But to be clear, to edit the post, you must be the proponent of said argument. I will not edit it if you disagree with a particular argument. For instance the posts say "shares deeper connection". That is the opinion of the proponent of that argument. If you disagree, regardless your reasons, that still does not change that that individual holds that opinion in that argument, so that will not be changed. Thank you. edits have been made curtesy of Sedside's input. If anyone disputes or has anything to add, feel free to tag this post and let me know!

It does however allow you to make intuitive leaps so it could have been beneficial in this case. Will edit post in a moment with the WoB for reference. Alteroden With [Feruchemical] zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from [Feruchemical] steel, except without [physical] speed? Brandon Sanderson I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations. Alteroden So it lets you have intuitive leaps. Brandon Sanderson Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it. Kurkistan So it's not like bullet time? Brandon Sanderson No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really-- Kurkistan That’s steel’s thing? Brandon Sanderson That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

There is skill, and there is power. All Marasi had was power. All she did was move fast, push weapons away from her, and do one push coupled with speed to reach Wax. Not much skill required to accomplish those goals. Coinshots are prevalent enough to know how the power system works, coupled with she has also studied Wax extensively prior to meeting with him, in addition to working with him (during which he explains how his powers work to her at the wedding as well as I believe two other instances). The medallions work through connection once you recognize them as what they are. Just like how do you explain to a new born feruchemist how to tap and store an attribute? They know how to instinctfully. So everything Marasi did is not far fetched at all. edit: to further illustrate. Elend could burn pewter while unconscious. He could push and pull on metals despite having never done so in his life. However, take Elend and Vin side by side, and tell Vin to replicate her horse shoe trick and you will have very different results. Elend comments on that exact fact.

Eh I feel we are arguing semantics at this point. Just because we meet the lord ruler at the height of his power while we meet the heralds at the low point of their power does not change the fact that the heralds at their peak had planet destroying capabilities. The lord ruler even with all his compounding (read not holding preservation's power) could not destroy a planet. The Heralds could and had to fight off enemies that literally set back an entire race's advancement multiple times. I will also add that while the lord ruler was worshiped as the sliver of infinity, some cultures on roshar worship the heralds as direct divinities. So I feel narratively we are supposed to ask ourselves "given how powerful the voidbringers are implied to be to be a global extinction threat, then one must wonder how incredibly powerful the heralds must have been if they originally held back the tide by themselves." Lol and I could see combatants that have fought a war for ages that involves preserving all human life, dispensing with formalities if it means they would win. Vasher would be a good example of this to me. Well the prime reason you would not be impressed is because he cannot actively hurt people. So he has to think of round about ways of using his abilities to accomplish his goals. But take away that restriction and one can only imagine what he could potentially accomplish I responded to most of this already above. The only power that the lord ruler could theoretically use to destroy a planet using compounding is weight and even then I believe I read a WoB or two that said it wouldn't quite work that way. You have beings that have access to the fundamental forces of the universe, with an unlimited supply and still they just barely hold back the voidbringers. What does that tell me? The voidbringers are a danger magnitudes greater than the lord ruler ever could be. I still think based on what I presented, the Heralds could take Rashek.

The Heralds were literal beings who would regularly come back to life to stop the very end of the world using the very fundamental forces of nature on a global scale that were enough to destroy their prior planet. So I do not think Rashek has a monopoly on such a statement lol.

No worries. It is hard to balance a fight because of a whole lot of factors. Brandon has also stated he did not create the magic systems to fair between them. There are going to be some just plain and simple stronger than others. Totally get this is not the point of your post, this is completely meant as a slight aside, but I theorize that swallowing Yelig-nar would act like nightblood. I think he only consumes the host while it uses his abilities. I think a "perfect" host for it would be someone that can already draw investiture in. So Taln would need the "unlimited" honorblade bonded to fuel the powers granted by Yelig-nar. Again, has nothing to do with the point you are making, totally intended as just an aside. Lol the Heralds turned against each other would be Ashyn part 2 I think even if Susibron could create another nightblood, it would be more to his detriment than boon. Those breaths that he could always pull back, become a depreciating supply due to his feeding. All the other combatants have numerous means of keeping away and out of range of Susibron. So ultimately they would just need to do what the fused attempted to do the Szeth. Steal the sheath, and let him kill himself from being consumed. True, though one would imagine they would be barefoot as they would know they would be limiting their combat effectiveness, and wouldn't need to worry about stubbing their toe lol. Thank you.