Pathfinder

I do feel as long as Rashek is on the table, then the only way to make a somewhat fair combat would be the heralds with their fully powered blades. Everyone else would get curb stomped. If Rashek was removed, I think it would be more interesting, and by extension the heralds with full powered honorblades would be banned as well. But this isn't my show, so not my say lol.

it does depend, but Taln, Palliah (edgedancer herald i think) and Jezereh would already all be touching the ground with their feet (Kaladin has shown any part touching works), and given the strength they could put into their surges, the entire area would be covered with adhesion, or changing the direction of gravity, or making all the ground mud, or removing all friction which would stop the lord ruler in his tracks. Jasnah we have seen can soulcast during combat with a thought. She doesn't even have to look in the direction of what she soulcasts. So I do not feel that would be a limitation on Battar.

No problemo. I use bolding to show emphasis or call special attention to something, not in a yelling fashion so I shy away from caps. Hopefully it read in that manner. See my thing is the lord rule still needs to tap the speed right? He has to actively use the power, so shouldn't they all get to actively use their power? As in they all take the same action to activate, with their minds. So what I am saying is the lord ruler activates his speed at the same time jezeren activates gravity, or at the same time taln activates cohesion, or the same time battar activates transformation. It is all activated at the speed of thought. Now an elantrian that has to draw the aon is screwed because the lord ruler could activate and use his power in the time it took them to draw the aon, but not so in my opinion with the heralds.

Wasn't saying bronze could not detect kinetic investiture. That is confirmed. However despite bronze being able to detect kinetic investiture, there are powers that can block its detecting abilities, such as burning copper. Just like there is yolish lightweaving, selish lightweaving and rosharan lightweaving, I would imagine there would be overlap in other magic systems. So my point was the screamers in Oathbringer during the Kholinar scenes would act like bronze seekers, detecting kinetic investiture. Yet despite their kinetic investiture detecting capabilities they were unable to detect Shallan's lightweaving. They specifically comment on how her surges seem to be "quieter" than Kaladin's for some reason. So I posit that lightweaving has an intrinsic characteristic like a copper cloud to hide from investiture detectors. Which makes sense because if your whole schtick is to be covert and hidden, it would suck if any old person could detect your ability is being used. So I still say Shallan's illusions could hide from a bronze seeker. edit: Shallan makes new illusions all the time while in Kholinar and that does not instigate the screamers, so starting or maintaining illusions would not matter. The illusions should still not be detected by bronze in my opinion And I still say considering the power set the Lord Ruler has access to, that using the cognitive realm is quite fair and reasonable to allow the heralds to use. But at the end of the day you are the OP that put forward the scenario, so you would have last word/ruling of course. An additional point but this is moving on regarding the overall discussion, considering the heralds if they had their honorblades as they originally were, then they would have unlimited access to surges that could affect the entire arena. It doesn't matter how fast the lord ruler is moving if gravit, or friction no longer works. No matter how strong or fast he is, if the ground is clay and mud, he isn't getting anywhere. If he steel pushes, his increased speed no longer comes into play and he is again vulnerable to gravity.

Minor nitpick, it is confirmed by Vasher that Susebron still has to be taught the commands. This is also confirmed because Vasher has had all that breath, yet himself and the other 4 scholars still needed to research and learn commands. So Susebron would not have instant understanding of his powers. Batter wouldn't need to blink to soulcast everything around her when it is directly fueled by a shard. I also think she would be able to shift to the cognitive realm and then soulcast everyone. I know Invocation says otherwise and I will respond to him below I keep coming back to when the honorblades were how they originally were, which was fueled directly by honor. We have seen what Vin can do when directly fueled by preservation. A steel push that pushed on all trace metals in kredick shaw and leveled the entire building. Personally I feel Battar using her honorblade transformation and transportation directly fueled by a shard with no limit could in fact soulcast all combatants at once to smoke regardless if Rashek was compounding at the time. Doesn't take direct action to transfer to the cognitive realm, and unlimited healing from the honorblade would be up there with Rashek's compounding health. When they were in Knolinar, there were voidspren known as the screamers that would sense the use of active investiture (such as span reeds and the such). If Kaladin used his surge, they would sense it and scream as well. Shallan's illusions were the only ones not detected. I posit based on this, Shallan's illusions have a passive copper cloud like effect, that could theoretically hide from a seeker. Not sure why cognitive realm disqualifies. The physical, cognitive, and spiritual are all overlaid on each other. Thinking beings are present in all three realms. The only difference Batter would be doing is moving her physical there as well. So yes, it is an ace up Battar's sleeve, but I think it is very much a valid tactic especially considering the lord rulers compounding is allowed.

I think if a herald had access to an honorblade back when they were as they used to be, as in fueled directly by honor, I think they could potentially defeat the lord ruler or a full born. Key word potentially. So Battar could in fact turn rashek to smoke even with all his compounding because the surge of transformation would be fulled directly by a shard. So game start, all enemies go poof.

the lord ruler just with the base 8 metals 1. unlimited speed 2. unlimited strength 3. unlimited mental speed 4. unlimited regeneration 5. howitzer strength metal pushing and pulling (also not limited to metal because can push on even trace metals in any object or body) so, you are basically saying a "weak" green lantern can fight a full powered superman with no compunctions about killing. the moment the fight begins the lord ruler compounds speed to run up on susebron, compounds strength and crushes susebron's skull. Or compounds weight, and pushes pieces of metal into susebron's head. And that is not counting the other metals, such as the metal that wipes out all investiture. oh the clothes are touching me? breaths go poof. all the breaths susebron has? poof. lord ruler crushes him. or susebron plain and simple dies because he is out of breath.

Investiture interferes with investiture. Just like you cannot directly lash someone to "unclaimed" shardplate, you cannot directly lash, or what have you to someone directly infused with investiture. Well cannot is strong. More it is very difficult depending on how invested the person or object is. A mistborn burning metals is invested enough to be up there with surgebinders as per WoB if I recall, but that i have to check. edit: WoB Blightsong Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson Yes, investiture resists investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right? Questioner Is a Mistborn invested? Brandon Sanderson The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that. Blightsong So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the potential to use investiture? Brandon Sanderson Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder. Questioner Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning? Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yea. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

That is a very old, very long thread. Lord Ruler's speed and strength would make awakening pointless and kill Susebron quickly. There is also a limitation that came up that I am blanking on. Oh yeah, I think Susebron still has to learn the commands in order to use them. I think Jasnah would have a hard time of it, but she could potentially come out on top. Shardblade, potentially shardplate, transformation and transportation is a very potent combination. Can't shoot coins if they are turned to smoke. Can't cut you with nightblood if you teleport away. Though still Lord Ruler is overpowered so he would crush her lol

WoB say that the southern scadrialians were the Lord Ruler's control group if he messed things up with the northerners when altering them to survive the ash mounts, so the southerners were what the humans were like from the get go on Scadrial prior to the Lord Ruler. Now how they survived the ashmounts without getting altered, no one definitively knows. Also the listeners and horneaters seem rather adaptable while the southerners were rather not, given they almost died from the drop in temperature.

Just wanna say, while powered by the mist Vin leveled Kredick Shaw. Just to put things into perspective. And that was before becoming Preservation

As per their definition, there really isn't. They are synonyms. At the end of the day we each look for different things in a leader because it is extremely subjective. So if that is your ideal, I respect that. I am just saying why Kelsier is not a fit for me. I personally would not feel safe with Kelsier as a leader because to me he is a con man. He frequently makes bad calls, where his immediate friends admonish him for, and have to fix for him (Vin nearly dying for one example). "Bringing the best out of people" is a rather big gamble when it comes to him. You either get to be one of his close confidants that he still lies to (his immediate crew), manipulated into thinking you matter when you don't (Yeden), or held up as a sacrificial lamb when it suits him (instigating the malcontent with rioting, then trying to force Demoux to kill him or the group of innocent skaa in the beginning that he paints as insurrectionists, and then abandons them knowing they will be hunted and killed. He is downright surprised to see them later alive). He does not actually believe in anything he says to get people to follow him. He doesn't actually believe he is lord of the mists. He does not actually believe malatium will conclusively stop the lord ruler, and he doesn't actually believe he "will be there for his followers". Marsh (as per WoB) holds to this more than Kelsier. Cons never last. They always fall apart. The trick is knowing when to get out before you are discovered. He is like the story of that preacher that sold people tickets to heaven. He then ran for the hills. Did they feel better about themselves? Sure. Maybe they even treated others better, but that doesn't change you cannot pay your way to heaven and he manipulated them based on a false belief (to clarify not saying religion is the false belief. the false belief in this case is by giving him money, you get a ticket that gets you into heaven). This is explained between Dockson and Kelsier at the beginning. Every instance Kelsier has "led" someone, involves him vanishing before it falls apart. Even his beloved crew died cursing his name (Dockson). So for myself, I would not want to follow a person that in the best case scenario I will be lied to, and in the worst case scenario I will be used and sacrificed when it suits him and I will never know which one I fall into until it is too late. WoB Kelsier and Marsh for reference Questioner At the end of “Alloy of Law” Marsh tells Marasi he is giving the diary to Wax because “.. he does my brother's work”. At this time it was a reminder of Kelsier, but with Secret History and the third book out why does Marsh think we need someone to do his brother's work? Isn't Kelsier doing that himself? Brandon Sanderson Well. (laughs) Marsh is of multiple minds on what's happening with Kelsier at this time. When he's referencing his brother's work, he's specifically tells Marasi speaking to the lore of the Survivor. Like he's specifically talking to somebody, and he does believe this. He may not think that Kelsier is doing Kelsier's work anymore. But that depends on... You will see interaction between Marsh and Kelsier in the future.

I would also add he had the advantage of being so powerful he could kill whoever disobeyed or disagreed with him lol.

You are putting words into my mouth. I never said you had to laugh at the joke. I explained the intention, and didn't want it to further digress. You are entitled to think those quotes support what you said. I disagree, which I am perfectly entitled to do too. I do not think it would serve anyone to continue this line of discussion as it wasn't the point of the thread.

Eh thats the thing, we don't know what he did as the Sovereign. We know the society already existed prior to him showing up. The only difference is they were dying because of the cold. The southerner that Marasi spoke to feared metalborn because he believed they would lash out and kill you at the drop of a hat if you didn't show them proper worship with every single sentence you say. That doesn't sound very leadery to me. For all we know Kelsier could have just shown up, showed them how to make the excisors, got them to worship him as a god, and then left. Again not building anything, just either tearing down or manipulating what is currently there for his own purposes. Personally I think that is semantics. In order to be a good leader, you have to maintain the people you lead. Guiding a line of lemmings over a cliff does not a leader make to me.

I respect your opinion, but personally it is a lot easier to tear something down, than to build it up. Kelsier's solution for the government is to tear it down, (without realizing bloody revolutions fall apart and devolve like the conclusion Elend came to, which without him Kelsier's revolution would have burned out and fell apart), and then just pass on the responsibility to his crew, of which realistically none of them had the experience for. The only person was Dockson, and he was primarily a book-keeper. Individually they could make up a cabinet (secretary of defense, secretary of treasury, etc) but you still need someone to lead them and by Kelsier's own admittance, he would be horrible at the job. Just because he is charismatic does not mean there is substance behind it. Con men can certainly get into positions of power, but that doesn't say to me they would do a good job maintaining it. But to each their own. edit: for some reason it won't let me correct the quote to change it to toasterretribution, when i quoted shard of thought by error.

Yes I did read it, and yes I still say she knew the information , and was working to prove said information (with book quotes to back it up). I also do not feel Jasnah would respond well to someone asking to exchange sex for information, but all of that is beside the point. The point was making a joke on Jasnah's reaction to what you would say, not a debate on the veracity of the the statement that results in derailing the topic. It wasn't meant to be critical. That is what you would say, great. Good on you. I do not see the point of continuing this.

Actually during Way of Kings she did know. She was at Kharbranth to find definitive proof. Their conversation at the end says as much. Way of Kings page 990=991 ""We'd be devastated. Civilization as we know it could collapse. We have to do something!" "We are" Jasnah said "We're gathering facts, making certain we know what we think we know" "And how many facts do we need?" "More. Many more" You can write anything you want. I was just making a joke regarding how I envision Jasnah responding. Nothing personal nor malicious behind it. Total harmless joke intended.

You of course are entitled to your opinion, I just vehemently disagree. Having a group of individuals who would never work together normally under any other circumstances and getting them to accomplish goals I think is a huge sign of a leader. Having whole nations respect her and defer to her expertise is another huge sign of a leader. Shes been trained for it her entire life, and Brandon is quite excited to write her (he has commented on that and how he sees her as himself just atheist instead of a theist). So I am quite excited to read what he has to write about her in book 4. edit: relevant WoB Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Which character in The Stormlight Archive do you most relate to? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] ...This is a good question, but it's a hard question. Because all of my characters are partially me, and partially not me. Every character... So, in some ways, Jasnah is the most "me" you're gonna get in one of these books, because you've got the very analytical, somewhat ambitious, gregarious person who ignores what everyone tells them is the smart thing to do and does their own thing, and then proves everyone wrong. On the other hand, a fundamental pillar of Jasnah is her atheism, where I am a theist. And so it's like, every character, I can probably go on like that about. Every character's got a chunk of me and a chunk that's deliberately not me. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] At the end of the book, Jasnah was chosen to be the next queen? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] She will choose to be called a queen and make them do that. So she is queen and it's going to be very fun to write Jasnah the queen.

LOL, and she would say in response "I know that already. The issue is not the discovery, it is proving that to everyone else. Until you have such information, get out of my way, and if you come near me in that manner again, Ivory will show you how much I tolerate such an exchange" Sorry had to lol

I say Jasnah. She has the experience from being raised as a leader, she has shown she can bring together disparate groups to work together (ardents, stormwardens and scholars) under her, she is respectful of others beliefs, she is progressive, and intelligent. So I vote other for Jasnah.

So I know there is a thread for finding Words of Brandon, but ironically I cannot find the thread to then request help finding a Word of Brandon. So can someone either point me in the direction of that thread, or let me know how to find the Word of Brandon that says you can burn allomantic pewter, and store feruchemical health at the same time and bear no negative effects? I've tried combining pewter, thug, gold, twinborn, compound, but have had no luck on arcanum. Sorry that this is a thread digression

Personally I think Jasnah may be a full 5 oathed Radiant or a 4 oathed radiant, but because Shallan has not come to terms with herself being a 4 oathed radiant, Jasnah being 4th, is still considered ahead of Shallan. The reason I say this, is because after Words of Radiance, there is a WoB that Shallan is one oath more than Kaladin. At the end of Words of Radiance, Kaladin was a 3rd oath knight, making Shallan at the end of Words of Radiance a 4th oath knight. After Oathbringer was released, there is a WoB stating that Jasnah is further along than Shallan (he has to check however). That says to me that Jasnah is either a more experienced 4th oath knight than Shallan, or already on her 5th oath. Pertinent WoB shown below edit: Though I do acknowledge that the WoB about Jasnah could be interpreted that she bonded Ivory before Shallan bonded Pattern the first time. Personally I interpret it the way I stated above. 3/18/14 tganchero (paraphrased) How many oaths can a Radiant swear? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin. 9/6/18 Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] When did Shallan take the First Oath? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] That's been quite a while. She's been on this path longer than almost anybody. Jasnah's been going for a while. If you look at the timeline, I think Jasnah beats her. But she's been on this path for years. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Do we get to find out when she took that First Oath? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, I'm planning to delve into that. It's supposed to be a "Wait, What?" I'd have to look exactly at the timeline, Jasnah beats her. Jasnah definitely beats her. Questioner 2 [PENDING REVIEW] <Are you sure?> Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Maybe not. I'd have to look at the timelines. This is why I have Karen, to keep my timelines for me!

There was a big back and forth about nonplussed awhile back. Brandon meant in the book for it to mean unperturbed, not surprised. So it is actually the opposite of her being shocked.

So I re-read the scenes again. The way things progressed is shown below: Aesudan 1. Kaladin and Elhokar walk in on Aesudan. She appears normal but is acting strange 2. She speaks with them for a little while. Says she controls Yelig-nar 3. Her eyes begin to glow and smoke begins to slow around her 4. We see her later walking down the steps with crystal like carapace covering her 5. Crystals cover her chest cavity Amaram 1. Kaladin arrives to Amaram falling to his knees, realizing he just swallowed something (he made a choking motion) 2. Amaram's eyes glowed red (this is less poignant as his eyes were already glowing red after the Thrill did its thing to him and his people) 3. Amaram becomes wreathed in black smoke. they begin to fight 4. Crystals start breaking through Amaram's armor 5. More description of crystals breaking out of armor, till chest plate gets shattered revealing crystals covering his chest cavity (of interest, yelig-nar also consumes "inorganic" matter. It ate his armor padding. Makes me wonder with the joke about nightblood, does Yelig-nar kind of work that way? Like if you do not have a way to pull in stormlight or investiture, he will instead feed on you, ultimately killing you? Both Aesudan and Amaram could not draw upon stormlight, so when they used the surges Yelig-nar provided them, he used their essence/body to fuel it? Which would explain why Amaram seemingly burns up faster? That would potentially further support that Yelig-nar consumes as you use him. edit: Hmmmm if this is true, then maybe Odium really did set Aesudan and Amaram up for failure. He knew they couldn't draw on outside investiture, so it would be only a matter of time for them to use the abilities Yelig-nar provides, and kill themselves. Yes what the Stormfather said about Dalinar's surge working differently is unrelated to the mistaken identification of cohesion when it should have been tension. So yes, as per the Stormfather, Dalinar's surges should work uniquely as a bondsmith when compared to the same surge being used by another order. A recent WoB that I will need to dig to find now states the recharging of stormlight is also a bondsmith thing. Could have to do with spiritual adhesion as well. I theorize that when Dalinar caught the chasmfiend claw in his hands, but somehow kept his shardplate in one piece, was him unconsciously using tension to strengthen it. Yep yep, they have access to Tension. It is Willshapers that share cohesion with Stonewards.