Fifth of Daybreak

You're absolutely right. I got caught up in the rest of the well researched idea, and threw you into my crazy postulation with no break! I'm going to blame the 24 hour ambulance shift I finished a few hours ago haha.

Like Syl says, it's not the same. He didn't attack Parshendi. He protected the abandoned men, and Dalinar, even though he hated them as Lighteyes. He did that because it was right to do so. Those men were about to die, betrayed by allies. It was absolutely right to protect the ones he hated, and he did so because it was right. This ideal is more of an exploration of what had done in WoK. He had already figured out the first ideal, about protecting those who can't protect themselves, that's easy, and only mildly applied to the soldiers. His experience with the first ideal was through protecting the untrained youth in Amaram's army, and then Amaram himself, who was trapped under a horse and could not protect himself. Then he protected the bridgeman. His experience led up to the first ideal. Initiating his advance towards the second ideal was what triggered his final, assured knowledge of the first. It is right to protect a drunken man from an assassination attempt you know is coming. The "what is right" clause is the actual ideal. Kaladin had to add the other portion as a personal reminder and testament to what he did. He didn't figure out the ideal before, and so he had to correct himself on what he was lacking. I imagine for most of the order would be something akin to "I will fight to protect, when it is right to do so." Edit:Sourced quote

Before WoR came out, I had theories that Shallan's "collection" of people she had sketched would be important somehow. I think that the new collection she started is going to include all of her squires.

So I've been reading around the forums throwing this around in the back of my mind. I'm going against two very popular opinions, so I am ready to be blasted by arguments. Let them fly! Theory 1: Nalan is not corrupted. Theory 2: Ishar is the other Herald in the Prologue First let's set up some background information, taken from Words of Radiance (the in world one.) So right from the start, we know that Ishar was against the Surgebinders running amok. Then there's this gem from WoB. So here it's suggested that the Skybreakers are basically the enforcement of the codes that Ishar was setting up for the fledgling Knights Radiant. Another snip from WoR So Nalan only stepped in when they stopped prosecuting, according to this quote. Skip forward a large chunk of time to present day Roshar. Nalan is actively killing surgebinders, while following the law. He is keeping with his own personal philosophy, even at the risk of letting a desolation occurs, because that's what he thinks he's doing. Here is a man who is obsessed with law, to a point where he lets go of Lift to slap a minion for asking if they are above the law. So he does care about justice. He forces his own subordinate to face whatever punishment for killing a kid (I bet it's a brutal one too.) He's bringing justice to the surgebinders, because thiey could cause a desolation, but he only does it in a way that satisfies his divine attribute. "But EMTrevor" you say, "Where does Ishar fit into this?" Well we already know that Ishar was iffy about the whole Surgebinders running amok thing, and that's what's happening at the present time. All the characters and spren are adamant that they are not KR. They have no organization, and no rules, time for Ishar to destory each and every one right? But that's Nalan is doing! Unless, they are a team. So far, we have figured out that Nalan is trying to stop the desolations from happening, even if through questionable means. Let's jump back to the prologue now. Woah, so this man (IMO Ishar) and Nalan are now involved with the assassination of Gavilar Kholin. Why? Well, the Parshendi claim that Gavilar was about to do something dangerous. We know he was in league with Amaram, and, most likely, with the Sons of Honor, as stated in Chapter 88 The Sons of Honor were trying to return the Voidbringers in order to return the Heralds, and Gavilar was a member. Returning the voidbringers would bring another desolation. Nalan and Ishar plot to kill Gavilar...and Nalan also plots to kill Amaram. Heleran is the Shardbearer who Kaladin kills. Amaram thinks that the Ghostbloods are behind it, but Heleran was not a Ghostblood, that was his father. Earlier in 88, Mraize says that Heleran sought out the Skybreakers, whom we know to have shards from Lift's interlude. So now we can pair the assassination attempt on Amaram to the Skybreakers, and then to Nalan, again, killing someone who could bring about the desolations. Ishar would be a natural ally for this, as he did not wish to have Surgebinders running amok, and would also want to prevent a desolation, for the implications it has on the world, and on the Heralds who abondoned their oathpact. Finally, lets look at the Szeth part of 88. Woah, that's a change in direction. What happened to hunting those who would cause a desolation? Oh yeah, that's right the desolation is here. So with his main quest failed, Nalan turns to his side quest. Justice. Who deserves justice more than the leaders of the Shin (please don't say King T, please?) The Shin leaders who banished Szeth and forced him into his position as Truthless are technically responsible for all of the murders he committed, because they wrongfully forced him into the role. (Crazy end theory) Considering Nalan's statement about being their god, I am inclined to think that Nalan was a force of Shin, entering the world and delivering death for the good of the people, but he was as deceived as Szeth was, and so the deaths that Nalan caused are then also the responsibility of the Shin. Justice for those that Nalan needlessly slaughtered in the name of saving the world. Justice for the wanton slaughter that Szeth partook in. Justice, and not a perversion of it. Edit: Seperated crazy personal theory from the rest of my deductions, as they should have been seperate thoughts. Thanks to Argent for pointing that out to my sleep deprived mind.

No, it's the other one talking. If it was Nalan who had been talking, then he would have been the one to walk away, but he didn't. He then sizes up Jasnah and (IMO) notices her surgebinding using the Rosharian equivalent of burning bronze.

I don't think that Jasnah is accountable at all. That alone puts the timetable to where Jasnah's interactions with Liss wouldn't put Szeth in a convenient spot. I'm also not sure about the Herald part either. If she was a herald, details seem to suggest she would know exactly who and what Szeth was. Nalan and the other herald seemed to have intimate knowledge of what was going on that night. Right there suggests that Nalan had something to do with Szeth and where he is. If Liss was a herald, then she wouldn't have gotten rid of Szeth to a slaver (I will concede she could be lying and could have given Szeth over to Nalan if she was a herald, but she does seem to be shaken at how obedient he is, which Szeth mentions is what normally happens after a short time being with a new owner.) Also, unless Liss was the herald who went back to receive her blade, (Or King T wasn't lying about another one missing) then Liss would not have an honorblade, as they are all accounted for. 7 in Shinovar, 1 with Szeth, 1 with a Herald, and 1 with Taln. This would mean she has an ordinary shardblade. I also think that if Jasnah hadn't contracted Liss, there isn't enough evidence to suggest she wouldn't be around. She's an assassin, and Alethi highprinces seem to be more disposed towards utilizing her abilities than what I've learned of the other kingdoms. Also, here's a thread where I postulated that she's either seen the Nightwatcher, or knows Dalinar had visited. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7431-theory-jasnah-knows-dalinars-secret/

I had a similar thought about him getting worse after getting the blade, but not because of the Unmade. I think it stems from the emptiness you feel after getting something you've wanted for a lifetime. He finally realized his goal of becoming a full shardbearer, and so a new goal, a new purpose had to be found.

(Off topic, your name is fantastic PorridgeBrick) That does make sense, but I would think he'd be very suspicious of any invested blade. He has also had a long time to reconcile them, which would be why he doesn't react now, but I'd love to read about his first interactions with them.

So I was thinking. Because Zahel has enough breath to sense life, can he sense life in Shardblades? Theoretically, the spren are still alive, just, as WoB stated, in a cycle of agony due to their consciousness being ripped out. So does he know the secret of the Shardblades being alive, or maybe even, can he hear the screams? I know there was also a WoB stating that Nighblood's nausea doesn't effect you if you've used him, so maybe that effect carried over and protects him from the screams? It feels like there's something missing here.

....can I change my answer?

Mmmmmmmmm Pattern is obviously superior mmmmmmm.

I find it interesting that it contains 'h,' the symmetrical cheat letter, but isn't symmetrical otherwise. Here are the quotes about the bond from both books. Wok Chapter 60: And again later in the chapter a few pages. From what is listed in Words of Radiance, I was assuming that Nahel had another definition previously, and had been adapted to be used to describe surgebinders. WoR: Chapter 35. It's interesting to me that 'Nahel' is capitalized, and 'bond' is not. That seems to indicate that 'Nahel' is a proper noun, but 'Nahel bond' is not. Is it possible that it was based on another name, but not Nahadon, as you suggest RShara. I hadn't thought to equate it to a name, but now that you mention it, that makes sense with the quote. Nahel could be someone who pioneered the bond but suffered because of it? Or maybe someone who had some sort of damage done to his soul? WoR Chapter 76 Not much information in this one about the origins of the bond, but again, only 'Nahel' is capitalized. Also, it notes that it takes powerful stress to cause more investiture to happen, which we saw both with Shallan, and Kaladin, possibly even with Jasnah manifesting her blade is her vacation to the cognitive realm. We know they had to be broken for the bond to start to happen, but do they have to break more and more for the bond to continue to grow? That seems like it would equate to Mistborn needing to snap for every metal grouping.

I got more of the impression that the sphere was of Odium, and not cultivation. Wyndle seems to suggest the Nightwatcher is a powerful Cultivation spren, and from what I've read on the forums, most spren are a combination of Honor and Cultivation. Voidspren are of Odium, but I'm not sure if there's a void light. It seems like stormlight is almost a universal investiture, so there would be no need for a voidlight. Interesting thoughts though.

Mr. T's boon: innate coolness. Mr. T's curse: to be surrounded by fools that he pitied.

No..he doesn't think it. He says it, but he doesn't think it. The words were not his, never his, now his. And then this line. That seems to imply that it's not him consciously speaking. Hmm. I've got an idea. I don't trust anything that he is saying out loud. Here is a transcription of everything that he doesn't say. The Taln perspective, without other character dialogue, and without any Herald dialogue. Look at this chapter compared to any other chapter. Three very distinct characters conversing. First line in the chapter of dialogue identifies the King No, 'Bordin said.' No 'Elhokar responded.' We don't know Dalinar is there until Bordin uses the "Brightlord" honorific, and then the person in question addresses Elhokar by name. Most importantly, there is no "Taln said." Even in the book, Brandon is absolutely refusing to refer to him as Taln, other than in the chapter title.

Amaram is part of the Sons of Honor I believe. I can get direct quotes in a few hours.

Amaram is trying to bring back the Voidbringers, which the Skybreakers are trying to prevent. Mraize makes a comment that Helaran sought out the Skybreakers.

Well, we know that much of the magic is based on perception in the Cosmere, and the pool in Elantris will only take "dissolve" the Elantrian if they want to go. Would it be much of a stretch to assume that this is basically an inter-realm kind of taxi? I would assume it took the old Elantrian to the Spirtual Realm, because he wished to leave his body and pain behind, so my thought would be that it can also take you through either to the cognitive realm if requested, or that it could even wormhoe someone to another world in the Cosmere, provided they know the right way to request it of the pool. Hoid would then have had to travel through the cognitive realm to get to know the routes, but then, could use the pools as a sort of cosmere quick-travel.

I definitely agree that there's something about her, and at least you have a theory. I'm just sitting here looming at her the way Adolin looked at Kal "Yeah . . .you know." Adolin glanced away and shrugged, as if trying to act nonchalant. "That thing." "What thing?" "The thing...with the...um stuff."

There's a slight overlap between an epigraph in WoK and a chapter title in WoR. Then, Chapter 62 in WoR: The One Who Killed Promises

I'm finding this hard to believe.It seems tenuous at best, with the main information you present being they have similar names and descriptions. This could be coincidence, although the way I interpreted Kliss was to be more fat than Liss. She makes a comment about needing a lot of food in her last conversations with Vin, but Liss I pictured more filled out than fat. Here's the direct quote: I just see this more as Marilyn Monroe body type than overweight. Next, Kliss being an informant doesn't exactly equate to her turning into an assassin, after all, she was Scadrial nobility, and was able to function as an informant because of her social status and her reputation as the court gossip. Her connections were with other nobility, and not with the underground in Luthadel. Also, Kliss, as far as the information presented, was entirely ordinary. She wasn't even a misting. The one worldhopper we know of from Scadrial was not only a misting, but an atium misting, which were created specifically by preservation for the final confrontation in HoA. He was also a close follower of Kelsier, which can explain his link to the greater cosmere. Kliss on the other hand, is a character who loses all her resources and power after the fall of the Lord Ruler and the Luthadel Nobility. Kliss also didn't use different characters to perform her duties. She was simply Kliss, the silly court gossip. She hid her intelligence and cunning under that, but that's entirely different from being able to fabricate different accents and characters, as it's implied Liss can do: Kliss also didn't strike me as very skilled. More lazy. Her workplace was the balls that were thrown where she lived the life of luxury, and found a way to make money through the easiest avenue possible. If you notice any lines that could hint at Liss being cosmere aware, it might change my mind, but nothing from the section jumped out at me about Liss being more than she presents herself as.

I think it's established that there are some people who know and some people who are skeptical, I found some information in the Chapter where Dalinar tells Adolin, Renarin. Even just Adolin's reaction compared to Renarin's, two very close brothers who most likely had extremely similar upbringings and educations, there's a discrepancy between known fact and legend. . Jasnah strikes me as more of the "believe what I experience for myself" persuasion. Well that's helpful Dalinar. Still very vague, but it leads me to believe it's pre-assassination. Edit: Fixed typo

Very well thought out and substantiated. Upvoted! I like the steps you are taking here, and all of the connections you made, but unfortunately, I don't agree. I was under the impression that it was Cultivation that was sending him that vision. First of all is the point you mentioned, that the Stormfather said he didn't send it. The Stormfather seems to be the one running errands listed in Honor's last will and testament, and so any action of Honor seems like it would have to flow through the Stormfather. Next, there are the feelings that are present in the vision, and that it seems to be more personal than of a world altering nature. Cultivation, by definition, would seem to warrant a more personal touch. The warmth bathing into him also seems to be encouraging growth, after all, without light and heat, life is hard pressed to grow. Furthermore, it seems like the vision is almost a vacation from the horrors of the present day. What more would you want to send someone to help them flourish during times of stress, than a vision and feeling of when times were better, when times were more ideal. It's hinted in Lift's chapter that the Nightwatcher is an offshoot of Cultivation, and Dalinar had experiences with the Nightwatcher. It's possible that the light was somehow involved in the Old Magic, and that is why he "knew it well." Still, the implications of the link to the spiritual realm ring true in my mind. I would almost take your speculations here and just switch it to Cultivation. It would make sense that she is residing mostly in the Spiritual realm, and sending this vision from their, conveying more emotion than information, like what has happened with previous visions. I'm also very curious now about what that separate thought about Gavilar. Was it before he wooed Navani? Before he joined the Sons of Honor? Fascinating.

Oh no! Another stick post! "I will stick when others fire." First ideal of the Stickbinders

The Stormfather had to have been around before Honor died, and each of the major events on Roshar has made a profound impact on his attitude and how he interacts with Roshar. Jasnah shed some light on the subject in Chapter 3: Pattern I don't think that we can only attribute that to differing opinions and styles of various Vorin theologists/historians. Instead, I think that the Stormfather's nature was changing because of his relationship to Honor and the humans. He most likely was more balanced and intelligent when Honor was still alive, and he most likely became Jaded after the Recreance. Perhaps the Hieorachracy had another profound impact on his consciousness?