Fifth of Daybreak

This is factually incorrect.

As I said before, if you want to argue about that theory argue in the other thread and cite my specific arguments please, this thread is not the place for it. This thread is specifically predicated on the assumption that she was acting under those conditions. If you are unable or do not want to discuss under those conditions, this thread is not for you. Forgive my frustration then but why are you in this thread? You have not participated in the topic as I presented, but attempted to correct me on something. When I replied that I intentionally put it in there because that's Jasnah's interpretation, you replied, without citing evidence, that she does not believe that. I provided book evidence and an argument showing the my reason for interpreting the scene in that way. You replied with a generilization about the nature of knowledge. You are playing both sides of the argument and providing satisfactory responses to neither, acting as though you do not have access to meta knowledge on the one hand, yet rebuking me for not accurately utilizing all meta knowledge available in setting up the scenario. This is unfair to me and gives the appearance that you are not attempting to engage with me in good faith but just trying to be obstinate. Where does Jasnah say that she thinks the Ghostblood's want to use the knowledge for personal gain? You say in the latest post that she doesn't know what their intentions are, but that contradicts your earlier posts! I've specifically cited a passage that says she suspects they intend to use it against them, which shows that Jasnah suspects how they intend to use it. Frankly, if you're going to just say generalizations and refuse to try to back them up with hypotheticals because you don't want to engage in behavior that you've been displaying the whole time, all while ignoring the actual topic this thread is about I'd personally prefer you abstain from this thread. I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I'm growing increasingly frustrated as you refuse to address the things I say.

Can you clarify for me if you're arguing from a point of meta knowledge or if you're arguing from Jasnah's perspective? Jasnah's specific words are that they need to get the knowledge before someone else does and uses it against them, not uses it for personal gain. Jasnah does not know the Ghostblood's want to use the desolations for personal gain. It would help move the conversation forward if you would move from generalizations to specifics. I don't disagree that it's possible to gain from knowledge without using it, but in this situation, can you present a scenario where that is possible without triggering a desolation, specifically while using the knowledge against Jasnah?

While this is a fair criticism of my view, it is not an argument against my point that the Shin are more aware of Cosmere magic than the rest of the planet, as they still have ancient magical artifacts that the rest of the planet doesn't know about. There's also more than enough tangential evidence to at least support the idea that they have the Blades in an official capacity. This is not a rebuttal of my point at all, unless you're trying to imply that his use of the terms 'lashings' and 'regrowth' are wrong as well. Their use by Khriss in the Ars Arcanum and by Wyndle disproves that notion, and lends credence to the idea that the Shin were trained in some official capacity and were entrusted the Blades. Having technically correct knowledge without interacting with Heralds or spren involved is highly unlikely otherwise. This also is not an argument against my point but a reinforcement of it. By using powers that no one else knows about long enough to become familiar with them, they are then familiar with powers no one knows about, making them more magically aware than others on the planet. It's heavily implied the Shin would not willingly give up the Blades under normal circumstances, and if it was taken from them they would get it back. See first quote above from earlier post, next: Szeth also recognizes Nin as one of his Gods. My inference in this instance is not implausible, as he can obviously show up and say "this is mine." This simplest explanation is probably true. Urithuru is above the clouds. It's highly implausible that Szeth just happened to stumble upon a city his people consider holy flying above the clouds on limited Stormlight while flying around the world assassinating leaders for King T. It's more likely that he knew its location beforehand and only went there to think after he found evidence he might not be truthless after his fight with Kaladin. The idea that he randomly was flying above the clouds in the mountains in a remote part of the world when he's supposed to be a slave to whomever holds his oathstone is so implausible as to be ridiculous, especially considering the history he knows of the place, which he would have to have learned from the shin, as it's a cultural icon. This once again reinforces that they know more than general Roshar. This is not an argument. It doesn't matter how I know something someone else doesn't know, it doesn't change the fact that it's still something I know that they do not.

Jasnah defines the Parshmen transforming and the desolations as the same thing. I don't understand what the quibble is here, in order to take advantage of it, it would have to be caused first. It seems like you're arguing six of one while I'm arguing half dozen of the other. If she says they want to find the knowledge first and use it against them, and defines that knowledge as what causes desolations, I just don't understand how that's much of a difference, plus this is extremely off topic.

We may know that, Jasnah assumes as I have said. For the purposes of this discussion we can ignore that meta knowledge and place ourselves inside of Jasnah's mindset.

Realmatically might be the wrong words, but same concept applied to a local scale on Roshar: 1: The Shin Shamonate were entrusted with the Honorblades. Knowledge of their existence alone makes them more aware than most of Roshar. 2: Szeth's knowledge demonstrates that the Shamonate have an in depth theoretical knowledge of both the powers and the terminology around them, something the Nahel bond spren have yet to remember. (Knowledge of lashings.) 3: Szeth also implies that the Shamonate have a working practical knowledge of the Blades and their powers, as it would be required of them to recover an Honorblade from someone skilled enough to kill Szeth. 4: Nalan retrieved his Blade from them in order to start his work, implying they recognized him and relinquished the Blade. 5: It's implied that Szeth was named truthless for warning that a desolation was coming, or at least that spren are returning and forming Nahel bonds, which is why his punishment is much more severe than other Shin who take up weapons. 6: They know where Urithuru is. 7: They are aware of spren that other Rosharans are not. (Spren of the stone.) I feel like I might be missing a few but I'll stop there.

Me trying not to make a stick joke.

If you'd like to discuss whether or not she knew it was the poison, please take it to this thread. Already in that post you make an error and say that Jasnah tasted it, which she did not. If you want to debate on this point, read my arguments and post on that thread. I've laid out my evidence there with supporting text from the books. If you have a quote from Jasnah where she says as much, you can provide it there, but I have laid a solid argument using information Shallan didn't have at the time for why her supposition is wrong. For this thread, I'm specifically looking for discussion on the specific topic I've presented with the assumption that she knew she was Soulcasting antidote, and I'd prefer not to get sidetracked on a discussion that's playing out on another thread. Thanks for understanding.

Dalinar tells King T a story.

Important edit: This thread is a thought experiment. The entire premise is based on the hypothetical situation that Jasnah did intentionally kill Kabsal. This is not a thread to discuss whether or not that theory is correct. Please see my other thread if that's the discussion you wish to have. In my other thread I laid out the evidence I had gathered to show that Jasnah intentionally soulcast away the antidote in order to reverse assassinate Kabsal, and that this would cause future friction between Shallan and Jasnah. I laid out the logical proof that her actions would be inconsistent with any intention to either save Shallan from poison or to have the soulcast jam have any personal effect on herself. The largest argument against the theory seemed to be that it was out of character for Jasnah and that she wouldn't risk Shallan like this, as it wouldn't fit in with Jasnah's morality. I disagree, and I think it fits exactly with what we know about Jasnah, and is a close parallel to her killing of the thugs in the theater district with the soulcaster. In order to demonstrate this, I'm going to do Shallan's homework for that night, but based on the premise that Jasnah had figured out Kabsal's plan and worked to counter him by removing the antidote, letting him kill himself through his own actions. All passages are from Way of Kings 39 Burned Into Her unless otherwise cited. Logic here stipulates very similar conditions. Yes, Jasnah willingly placed Shallan in danger by possibly removing the antidote, but the sole responsibility still lies with Kabsal who first brought the poison and chose to put Shallan, a person he cared about, in harm's way to achieve his goals. Jasnah had the ability to save her with her Soulcasting, and the help of hospital staff should poison be present. Logic dictates that she is not responsible for the poisoning since she is not the one who made it available, presented it to Shallan, or encouraged anyone to eat it. She's been completely removed from the bread and jam the whole time before this, it is not her responsibility, whether she removes the antidote or not. This is straightforward. Kabsal wants to kill Jasnah, Jasnah needs to remove him first. Jasnah's actions are justified. Jasnah's intent here is to stop an assassin who is trying to stop her from discovering how to stop the desolation. Her intent is to ultimately save humanity from the desolations by preserving herself and her research, which is ultimately more important than a nobody lighteyed Veden girl who she has a strong chance of saving. This also exonerates her. Again, here, Jasnah is justified in removing an assassin who is trying to start a desolation. Her objective, preventing a desolation, is a worthy goal, and the reprehensible action of putting Shallan at risk to take out an assassin who could prevent that goal, is worthwhile. We can also infer from her view of morality that she sees no issue with the idea of preemptive strike, so her actions here are not out of character insofar as moving to remove Kabsal first as an issue of morality. So in conclusion, I get the feeling that a lot of people felt like I was attacking Jasnah and saying that she was recklessly playing with Shallan's life, and while I was painting that picture for the sake of illustrating how it will create a fissure between Jasnah and Shallan, I thought it prudent to make this thread to show I don't think it actually changed my assessment of Jasnah's character, and I'm actually not convinced it was the wrong move in this case, especially with hindsight showing that she was able to save Shallan.

I think Egwene starts to turn around in The Shadow Rising/The Fires of Heaven. She starts an arc there where she experiences a lot of character growth.

I agree with you here, especially in regards to how society will view it. I can imagine a lot of victim blaming parallels between here and the real world. "He should have just taken the shards if he wanted to protect his men." "Why did he wait so long to say anything." "Amaram is such a good person I just refuse to believe it." "All these darkeyes just want to accuse lighteyes of things and take their wealth, lazy layabouts."

I might be misremembering, but I recall several discussions around the visions back when WoR came out and that was the general feeling it seemed like people came to. I might be wrong. I'll go through my logic here anyway. 1: Dalinar recognizes it as a vision. Dalinar is familiar enough visions at this point I trust his judgement when he says something is a vision and not a dream. 2: The stormfather denies that he sent Dalinar the vision, which means it's not of honor. 3: Odium is not very likely to send a vision, and if he does it's definitely not likely to make Dalinar feel better about himself. 4: Dalinar's vision is before the conquest, described as things "should be." This could be interpreted using my starfalls quote to mean before Dalinar was damaged by the fighting he had done during the conquest, and cultivation would have reason to want to remind him of that, to help him grow back into that as he grows into his role as Bondsmith. 5: it's not just a 'Warm light appearing as he goes outside.' It Pierce's him into his very self, which backs my interpretation of Cultivation's alleged lights somehow reinforce damaged souls. He also says he knows the source well, which is an odd thing to say about a son unless the light has a supernatural source. 6: Dalinar mentions the Vision seems stronger than the highstorm visions, specifically referencing the light, again reinforcing a supernatural origin and also implying a living shard since it's stornger than honor's projection, hence, cultivation. And when he blinks, which wouldn't be cured by sunlight. My interpretation is backed up by the passage in the book that immediately links the concepts together with the "God of God's" whose gaze he refuses to meet. Here, Szeth links the sunlight to the 'God of God's' and says that the darkness, the one that brings screams in the immediately proceeding passage, is brought by clouds. This is the second time he's referred to the sun as the "God of Gods." That could definitely refer to a living shard, as Heralds are considered Gods and Shards could be considered their Gods. We also see him directly reference the screams with the closed eyes after this, the murders weighing on his souls without shadows, and him questioning his sanity, all reinforcing the idea backed by the Starfall quote that his assassinations are hurting him spiritually. The Shin have also proven themselves to be more realmatically aware than anyone else on Roshar, so I listen when Szeth talks. I'm familiar with real world applications.

I don't agree with this. Surgebinders with Nahel bonds that have progressed further in the oaths definitely consume Stormlight more efficiently then Honorblade users. In WoK, we see several times that Kaladin goes through shock symptoms after consuming large amounts of Stormlight while in his early stages. We don't see the same symptoms later with similar feats such as the four shardbearers duel. I think a good reason for this can be outlined from the groundwork laid in my thread "The Physiology of holding Stormlight" in my signature. To boil it down, Stormlight acts as an intravenous gas and binds with receptors in the blood. Let's calls these spiritual blood cells, or sbc. Let's assume that a Nahel bond surge benefits from increased efficiency in transporting(sbcs), holding, and using Stormlight. (I don't want to being up quotes for this, but Szeth chapters have a few that should support it.) Now assuming an ineffective surgebinder with ineffective sbcs, it requires larger amounts of Stormlight and investiture in order to perform the same feat, which means that more Stormlight has travel through the body for anything to happen. There are three ways to increase cardiac output, change the fluid, the pipes, or the pump. Stormlight allows all three to be enhanced beyond normal physical limitations, engorging blood vessels beyond their normal capacity to fill with Stormlight and magically invigorating muscles to work harder and heal, possibly even allowing the heart to stretch beyond its limit and pump faster and harder than should be humanly possible. The easiest way would just be for the Stormlight to expand all the blood vessels having a systemic vasodilation effect allowing them to fill to capacity with Stormlight giving the honorblade user access to the investiture they need to use their powers. A Nahel bond spren user would need only a fraction of the dilation because they can both transport the Stormlight more efficiently (think an athlete vs a couch potato) and can use it more efficiently.) This becomes important when the Stormlight runs out. The blood vessels cannot all constrict immediately to return to a normal state. This causes the shock symptoms that Kaladin had. His body cannot compensate fast enough for the transition his body just went through. Imagine how a balloon looks just after it's been deflated, all stretched out; the blood vessels are in a similar state and need to be able to constrict again. The body also might be damaging itself compensating for whatever it has to do to make room for that magical energy. Not having to repair that damage could allow for faster healing in other areas.

Everyone ignore the uncultured Midwestern American. (In my defense, I did double check the cover beforehand to make sure.)

Gotcha, thanks for chiming in!

That's the justification, not the rationale. It's a very Alethi tradition to attack those who insult or attack your house. Sadeas has done so repeatedly. In my op, I'm stipulating that Adolin is forthcoming about how the original situation went down, Sadeas provoked Adolin by calling them liars and saying that he was going to take everything from his house. It was an insult an a declaration of war, so Adolin attacked in Alethi tradition, which is the rationale at the time. However, he presents that he is also justified in his actions because he has the author of the king's boon and he invokes it in that instance, and also offers to duel Amaram to offer satisfaction to house Sadeas and for Amaram's crimes. Does that help clear up what I'm trying to say? He's taking responsibility, but not claiming guilt under Alethi tradition with retroactive justification.

I could see if you had a setup where you had an entryway into your home that could be accessed and unlocked but was locked from the rest of the house, but otherwise no. I live in an apartment so they can just take it to the office.

I was under the impression they strategically chose positions to charge where it was not this long. They cited this in the other thread

it definitely felt rushed to me. The other two books you had a clear goal of who the antagonists were and what the objectives were for the story. This book doesn't follow that formula and when it splits off from that it makes the second half of the book feel like it didn't get the exploration it deserved.

Here's how I'm looking at it: we know that the higher rank you are in society the more protections the law affords you. We see this from the Roshone/Lirin conflict. Lirin is allowed the right of inquest because of his rank, whereas lower darkeyes wouldn't be afforded those rights. As the darekeyed party receiving a gift of wealth from a lighteyed party (hypothetically speaking ) Lirin had to ensure that all of the documents were tended to, as if he didn't have explicit proof backing him up, even as a darkeyes of rank, he would have been steamrolled by the system. The Shards didn't transfer to Kaladin by legal means, it transferred to Kaladin by tradition. He didn't have to sign any papers or do anything to take possession of the Shards other than kill the Shardbearer. There's the story of the Lighteyed archer who was able to claim his shards because he fired the killing shot on the Shardbearer after a squad of darkeyed spearmen broke the breastplate (I've always been suspicious of this story a little anyway. Amaram 1.0?) but if it is a true story it just demonstrates that the tradition holds true. It's the act of defeating the Shardbearer that wins you the Shards, regardless of if you're immediately there to pick them up. So right then and there, by right of tradition which is incredibly strong in Alethkar, Kaladin becomes a Lighteyes and immediately should receive the same benefits of protections from the law, including the need to properly verify any transfer of wealth with proper documentation should he wish to give it to any darkeyes, even if only to protect the darkeyes he's trying to help from the system that is stacked against them. In the case of Moash, he has the nephew of the king to witness, and then scribes to later ratify, and even then Adolin prevents anything from being finalized until he checks with Kaladin. My opinion is yes. Tradition rules in Alethkar, from Dalinar fighting against wrapping his Takama three times to marrying Navani. Kaladin was a lighteyes as soon as the knife went through Helaran's eyeslit imo.

I'd quibble over the first half. Those Shards were Kaladin's. Giving them to Coreb should have been allowed under the tradition of allowing your shards to be used by your best warrior as some Highprinces do. I do agree with you though that allowing Cored to use them doesn't necessarily make him a lighteyes. it would have been all politically murky territory at best.

He didn't kill Kaladin though, only stole his Shards and illegally made him a slave.

I think this thread will go a long way to answering your questions. Cheers!