kaellok

2. See my post with above, with WoB on Plate and Lashings. Affecting someone wearing Plate is difficult because it is an item with innate investiture. We only have Szeth's viewpoint that wearing Plate interferes with his lashings. Szeth also knew that a limb killed by a Blade could not be healed. While Szeth may know a lot, he is also wrong about things. We have no evidence that the Heralds wore Plate. We know (at least some of) the Radiants wore Plate. We know the Radiants did not have a problem flying while wearing Plate. I think that, specific to Windrunners at the very least, while you are wearing Plate then it won't affect your Lashings; the Honorblade being the source of Szeth's Surges is what created his issue. One of those issues could very easily have been "sucked away so much Stormlight that the Honorblade no longer had enough to fuel its powers, due to the severe inefficiencies required by lack of a Nahel bond."

I don't think that Gavilar gave his true allegiance to any of the various secret societies he was involved in. From what we know of him (which is, admittedly, little) I think that he is using them all for a specific end. I would guess that this end is a united world, to stand against the Everstorm. This assumes, of course, that his visions were the same as Dalinar's. We know that Mr T is working to ensure humanities survival against this threat, and had a close association with Gavilar. Amaram's group may have been wanting the return of the Heralds and a Desolation for their own reason (a return to Vorinism holding central authority), but that would also result in a unified world. And, keep in mind, Sadeas and Restares were the people Gavilar felt likely to have him assassinated, behind only the Ghostbloods. Whether he is good or bad depends on your viewpoint of morality. From mine, even should Mr T be 100% successful, his methods are such that he is evil. The same is with Amaram: bringing about a Desolation, even if the eventual greater good is a paradise that lasts 10,000 years, is evil. If Gavilar was actually working with either organization, then to me, he was doing the work of evil. Others will likely disagree, especially if either plan ends with success or lasting victory. Remember, though, the First Ideal: Journey before Destination. By working with either of these secret societies, Gavilar seems to have not been too keen on that, even with his obsession over Nohadon's The Way of Kings.

There is no absolute truth; if there were, then maybe Lightweavers would be liars. Or at least there would maybe be a good argument that they are. Sure, Shallan does a whole lot of lying; so do other people. Lying is something that people do. To find out the difference between when it's Shallan lying as a person, or Shallan lying as a Lightweaver, we can simply look to Pattern's reactions for clues, as well as the few references to Lightweavers in the epigraphs. When she is lying to present a new version of the truth she seems to be upholding what it means to be a Lightweaver the most. Somewhere inside of the deserters were the noble and idealistic soldiers wanting to protect the nation; somewhere inside of herself she was confident and poised; somewhere inside of herself she was terrified, scared, and broken--but those weren't helpful, so she chose to not be them anymore. When Kaladin wonders how she can still be happy and cheerful despite it all, she responds that being crazy helps; a lie, but also a truth. An honest lie is one that reveals truth. This is especially true with art, whether movies, books, song, or drawings. Those are the lies that Pattern seems to find most interesting, and those are the lies that Shallan usually (but most definitely not always) tells. To say that Lightweavers are liars is like saying the Mona Lisa was a painting, the Declaration of Independence was a collection of words, or Lightweavers are liars--each statement is technically correct, but misses the point so badly that they may as well be a lie in and of themselves.

Well Shardmancer, the only problem with the theory that Shardplate is a copy of the plate worn by the Heralds is that the Heralds didn't wear plate--or if they did, I'm not aware of any WoB or in-book references to indicate that they did. The prologue of WoK doesn't mention Kalak or Jezrien wearing Plate, just their Blades. All mention of armor is in reference to other people wearing it. We know the Radiants wore Plate, but that's really about it.

Instead of being so cheerfully insistent on killing evil, Nightblood would sing the theme song from the commercials that is still seared into my brain: "I love Goldfishes because they're soooo delicous! Gott's gold fish-es!"

Accidentally found this tidbit while searching for something unrelated in the WoB thread, and it seemed moderately on-point While I still hold to the theory of Plate being some kind of super-fabrial, I think it's telling that someone asked him about Shardblades, and he essentially answered the question with Shardplate as an example. Also that Shardplate has innate Investiture seems important.

I agree, Moogle. It's already interesting how (dis)similar Skybreakers are to the Windrunners, so I'm keen to see how the Dustbringers add to the mix. Skybreakers seem to be focused on the Law to determine Right from Wrong (although the epigraph in p.636 of the hardcover edition also tells us that Skybreakers have a great aptitude for separating the guilty from the innocent), so it's possible that Dustbringers fulfill the same function from the opposite side--but instead use their own feelings or judgement. That also might be why so many people felt there was little to differentiate between Dustbringers and Voidbringers.

Good points all, Vessyr. But I think you typoed VII -- unless you played a VERY different FFXII than me And most people are rather obsessed with dual wielding because it looks awesome. Personally, I'd be terrified to dual wield Shardblades; less scared now that I know they have a good amount of weight and heft to them now, but pre-WoR I was operating under the assumption that they're very similar to lightsabers. I really enjoyed the scene where Bridge 4 train with a Shardblade quite a bit, because clearing that up actually makes me enjoy the fight scenes with Shards all the more. Yay realism! (Meant seriously, even in regards to a completely fictitious world, about fantastical items and magic. I love fantasy as much as I love science and logic haha).

Wait. This is brilliant. And logical. And also, I can't for the life of me find it, but isn't there WoB on an allomantic metal that removes investiture from others? I know about aluminum/chromium, but I was thinking him specifically talking about investiture, rather than just their store of metals, . And all of this is relevant because maybe Bondsmith's found a way to do that, but with Stormlight? Remove the investiture/Voidspren, remove the threat.

Intent-wise, there's a HUGE difference between Adolin and Moash--and that may make all the difference between one being able to be a Radiant and the other a powerful dupe. Adolin's actions can basically be boiled down to stopping evil/bad/wrong from occurring in the future, immediately after a man who has committed such evil/bad/wrong in the past gleefully talked about his plans to continue being evil/bad/wrong. Moash was wanting revenge, nothing more, and nothing less. Mr T has much better reasoning for the slaughter of thousands (if you include the war he engineered in Jah Keved), and seems more likely to become a Radiant in my book (I also think this to be incredibly unlikely, but a 0.1% chance is greater than a 0.01%).

A few comments: 1. There is no way that Kaladin is going to give the Honorblade to someone who isn't a Darkeyes. Pre-WoR, I would have accepted such a decision, but his entire story arc in WoR was about how much of a terrible, hateful person he is (albeit with reason). He dealt with his immediate unreasoning hatred. If it's taken him two entire books to acknowledge that there might be a good Lighteyes--or even one who doesn't act the way they do out of malice towards others--then he's not going to give up that kind of power easily to a non-Darkeyes. 2. Does anyone except for us know that there are any Parshendi that may have survived? Or are you talking about the millions of parshmen that are going to be changed against their will and set about destroying the world? Unless the Honorblade is capable of something far beyond anything that we've seen, sending one person to take care of that potential menace is worse than foolish. 3. Writ or no, if a parshmen comes flying into a city with a Shardblade, people are going to react as if he's a second Assassin in White, especially if he arrives after the Everstorm hits. 4. I think that there's a far stronger argument that Kaladin will give the Honorblade to Teft.

So, um, where does it say or even imply that Honor gets a Champion if Odium does? The way I saw it, the plan is to force Odium to choose a Champion, and then it's a matter of "focus all of the might of the world to kill that one Champion, because that's something a mortal can do, but splintering a Shard is probably so far beyond you it's not even worth explaining that as a possible option." The hopelessness involved even if Odium chooses a Champion is what leads me to think that that's the case. If Honor were able to appoint a Champion as well, then I'd imagine there'd be a lot more optimism involved.

I really thought that Mr T was getting a PoV book--am I remembering wrong?

Gavilar's involvement with two secret societies--one willing to do anything to cause a Desolation (for reasons), the other willing to do anything to stop a Desolation (maybe just survive?)--certainly seems a bit, well, off to me. And he also considered a third secret society the most likely candidates to assassinate him, and took the time to mock his assassin about their failure because it was too late. The idea of King T the spymaster turned reluctant ruler of the world simply because Gavilar was selfish enough to die not only fits, it makes me laugh.

*ahem* Un-derailing the conversation! It's quite possible that some form of Awakening was used by someone at some time to cause that particular fable. There's a WoB about another link between Roshar and (I suddenly can't remember the name of the planet Warbreaker is set in, but that one):

Well, I apparently had a completely different take on the ending as everyone else! I discovered WoT around the time Book 6 was new. I re-read the series each time a new book was published. I have zero inclination to read any part of any of the WoT series again. The conflict and resolution of Rand vs. The Dark One was...I don't even have words; the ending that Jordan promises for years and years was already written and amazing was awful. This explanation of the root/core conflict literally makes me regret reading the series more than once. It retroactively destroyed previously fond memories. Then again, journey before destination--but the destination sucks (I'm not even talking resolution here; the resolution was pretty good, all told--this is strictly the climax of it all). I dunno if you played Mass Effect 3, or were like me and heavily invested in the game and then got hit with the Star Child randomly at the very end. I had the same exact kind of reaction to both.

It would sure have been cool to see that epic gravity surge. Or him in actual action during a Desolation if he were capable of that kind of power. Also, Ishar (with the vision) could well have been working with Jezrien to enact their weird post-breaking party. Maybe he realized there was an additional problem that had to be solved, and used Jezrien for the destruction he could cause.

Voted for Final Empire. The SA books are better, but they didn't have nearly the impact on me that the Mistborn trilogy did. And I only voted for one, in keeping with the word 'favourite' implying 'one.' Even then, if Kaladin hadn't been so terrible in WoR I might have voted for it as well, as it is otherwise superior to WoK in basically every regard and his best-written book to date.

Ah! So if you shorten the year to just 2-digit, then it works. Very cool, ty for explanation

Er...I'm not seeing it. How is it a Palindrome? 4-14-2014 would be 4-10-2414. Or if today is 4-14 then backwards that's also 4-14, but tomorrow would be 4-15 which would make it 5-14 backwards. Also tomorrow would be 4-15-2014 or 4-10-2514. I'm just not seeing how to make those into Palindromes.

Has anyone looked into whether the spiral-ish pattern we see is related to a Fibonacci curve?

We know for a fact that Alethar were the warriors of Roshar. The Chapter Starfall in WoK is a vision chapter for Dalinar; the female radiant specifically says that the Alethi are specialized in the war arts to protect the other nations (I don't have book with me, so I can't quote exactly). This doesn't mean that other countries didn't have soldiers or warriors; just that the Alethi were the best at it, and presumably also had the best equipment. Specialization of nations makes a lot of sense if they're united in something that approaches the sense of an empire, federation, confederation, league, etc. It only doesn't make sense if they see each other as (potential) rivals. Modern Roshar clearly has the rival viewpoints, and there have been times in the past where this occurred as well (pre-Desolation Nahodan's time). To the theory! 1. Maybe. More likely is that the number 10 is important to Honor for some reason, resulting in the creation of 10 Dawncities, 10 Heralds, etc. Certain Cities may have come to be associated with Heralds later. Look at the Radiant Orders, and how some of the Heralds refused association to them until they became more annoying. 2-3. My understanding is that the Oathgates came after the Heralds; well after. And most of the time that the Heralds are on Roshar, it is combating the Desolation--we have WoB that if they stick around too long after a Desolation ends, then a new Desolation begins. Why would the Heralds allow only their own particular Honorblade be able to lock or unlock the gates? 4. So, a Herald grabbed up all of the Honorblades, and locked the Oathgates, and then wandered over to Shinovar to give the Stone Shamans the Blades? Oh, and they came back to grab them before anyone else could, too; either that, or they are able to fight off someone with an Honorblade while they, themselves, are unarmed. 5. What reason would they have to lock the Oathgates? What's the worst-case scenario of people finding out that the Heralds broke the Oathpact--nothing. NO ONE knows who they are, where they went, etc. They face possibility of their name being tarnished, and that's really about it. Motivation for this action is--nonexistent as far as I can see. Also, do we have any official word that if the cities were linked to a Herald, Stormseat would have been Taln's? It really seems like that would be Jezrien's city to me (you know, with him being confused with the Stormfather and all that). 6. Why would Taln's Oathgate stop working? If the others were locked, his would be the only one still working. Is that what you meant? Or are you arguing that the Oathgates are only usable so long as the Herald they are linked to is on Roshar? If that's the case, then wow. Further, we haven't seen much evidence to suggest that Heralds have the kind of power necessary to destroy an entire city in one massive wave from above--which seems to be what happened from my reading. It is possible that they could with access to all the Surges through the Honorblades, plus whatever other super-special abilities they may have from being a Herald, so actually--a Herald being responsible for the destruction is one of the more plausible points in your theory. A much simpler answer for everything, based on the premise that the Honorblades are keys to lock/unlock the Oathgates, is that after the Recreance, the Shinovar Stone Shamans used the Honor Blades to lock the gates that they could. This would keep most of the more plausible portions of your theory, while discarding what I consider the ridiculous ones

OP, just so you're aware, what you've noticed is actually a rather common form of pacing throughout pretty much all of storytelling--books, movies, plays, operas, etc. Not necessarily so much in the Big Bad reveal, but in having something occur that challenges the audience's previously held beliefs/notions regarding what in particular is going on. I currently think that Odium actually is the Big Bad for the first half of the Stormlight Archive books, but absolutely not for the Cosmere as a whole. We haven't actually 'seen' Odium, after all; just a couple things that he's set into motion. I'm tentatively guessing at Nalan being the Big Bad for the second half, but I don't have anything to back that up except a gut feeling.

It would make more sense to me that if they're of a Shard, then the Shardholder's name would be Ryshad. Do we know Cultivation's name?

Re-reading the epilogue of WoK, in light of this thread, I find it quite interesting that Wit's story about what people value most is whoever creates something and presents it to the world first. Combine that with what he says in the Gibletish chapter (tearing a man down apart and rebuilding him bit by bloody fleshy bit). I guess my real question is: Is the trigger for the Desolation Taln leaving Damnation? Or him arriving on Roshar?