kaellok

I think that you are HUGELY underestimating anyone in Plate, or Odium-based monsters that won't be instagibbed by Blades. So you disarm them of their weapon; big deal. One of the primary tactics to use against someone with a Blade is to get in close--if you have Plate, you can do so relatively safely. The dart on a rope is much weaker at close range than a Blade is, because, as you said, it's a velocity weapon, and the dart is what actually does the damage. So while you're spinning your rope around, I'll charge in close and use a StickTM or spear or sword or some other object that has a little bit of reach into your maelstrom. Yes, this will cause me to lose my weapon, and yes you will be able to keep yours--but it will KILL your momentum, and as soon as I place it in I'm going to charge you and start pounding your face in with my Plate gauntlets. If you decide to run, then again, you've lost your key advantage of velocity, and you can bet damnation I'll be chasing you down. Against enemies with no defense against it, the rope and dart weapon will be super effective, but against anyone who can survive a Blade hit who isn't brand new to combat then it is substantially weaker. And your friend's moves are pretty impressive, but not really the same thing as combat at all--somewhat intimidating to fight if I didn't have something to absorb the blows, but he doesn't seem to have the control to send the dart exactly where he wants it when he wants it. ie, he can't slam the dart into the same section of Plate over and over again in a row in order to shatter it as a tactical decision that we see other Shardbearers using. Put some jagged edges and blades on the rope that can cut like a Blade does, and we have an entirely different fight on our hands, of course.

Snipped out bits I'm not responding to (and I added numbers for easy responding)! Sadly, I don't have my book with me right now for quotes or accuracy, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Like, 87% sure. 1. We at least agree on Kaladin not being long for the world, huzzah! (I mean huzzah at agreeing, not his impending death. That's actually quite sad.) I don't think that he's literally Fleet, but that's a different discussion. 2. Have you ever been forced to do something that you weren't really sure about and it turned out to be the absolute best thing ever??! Sure, she went along with the marriage betrothal thing to help her family, secure finances, get assassins off her back, etc. Maybe not the best of reasons, but she never once lied about it or hid the truth; she was, in fact, brutally honest and up front about the reasons. These reasons are, by and large, moot by the end of WoR--but she is fighting for the relationship because it actually means something more to her. Adolin knows why it started, and he knows that circumstances changed, and so he really wasn't sure if she was still interested in him or not, if what he had to offer was something she still wanted (and I mean beyond wealth or fame or whatever; the intangible things that are so necessary for a good relationship to work. Like making her laugh when she's sad.) Maybe we don't know why Shallan wants the relationship so much, but we do know that she does want it--and they seem to work very, very well together from what I'v seen. 3. Kaladin is good at reading people's motivations and seeing who they are as long as they are not lighteyes. I believe that every time he seriously misjudges someone, or misinterprets something, or just gets it all wrong--is because lighteyes were involved. As he slowly (so very, very, excruciatingly slowly) gets over his (justifiable) prejudice against them, his blinders will slowly be removed. 4. I absolutely, vehemently disagree that Shallan is powerfully convinced that they will survive the chasm. Not for real. It is as faked and forced as is her confidence when she convinced the deserters to join her and save the caravan, as when she faced the Ghostbloods, or when she met with the Highprinces just after arriving, and made Selabriel take her in. It's a false confidence that you must maintain absolutely--and if you let one pessimistic, angsty bodyguard wear it down even a little, then it may shatter completely and leave you a quivering, weeping wreck until you die. At least, that's how it is for me, and so that's how I read it; given some of the strong similarities between myself and Shallan, it just felt right 5. Some secrets are toxic and poison to keep inside, and demand to be shared--but also demand to be kept secret. So you're faced with a battle in your own head, about wanting to tell someone, and being too terrified to do so at the same time. Knowing that you're going to die is a great way to win that battle (or lose, depending on how you look at it) and tell someone. Assuming that the person or people you tell aren't utterly heartless, usually there's some kind of release that follows (catharsis); it may last, or it may build up again until you are fighting the battle once more. I would say the "terrible consequences" would have been to die with this completely unresolved. And a further argument on the "Kaladin and Shallan? No way!" ship! Kaladin is almost positive he killed Shallan's beloved brother. He had the chance to tell her, and he didn't. In a time when they were sharing close memories, scarring tragedies that had affected them. She may have been able to forgive him then, had he explained all of it, but I doubt she would find it easy to get past that.

Always assuming, of course, that the enemy don't have anti-Blade properties similar to Plate. If they can absorb or rebound the blow of a Blade, then many of these weapons suddenly become far less effective than we're thinking lol.

My suggestion is specifically based off of physical size and length being conserved, rather than mass. May not make sense with physics, but spren likely have some weird limitations we are not aware of in addition to 'real-ish' physics. The limit of "approximately six feet" makes for interesting possibilities without insane overpoweredness. I absolutely meant a length of chain that had spikes jutting out of it. My suggestion is similar to Tempus's, actually, but assuming that it would take a hundred or so KR/Blades to achieve a similar result; maybe more.

I'm thinking a chain whip would be of the "insanely devastating" variety, if hard to control. The nice thing about a living spren forming the weapon is that they could *poof!* away instead of hitting yourself or an ally during a wild swing. Even assuming that it is only approximately the same length as Shardblades (assuming that their limitation is in how long they can be, rather than how much mass they are) the advantages would be awesome. And as I just realized that I'm basically agreeing with EMTrevor, I'll expand on my personal favorite potential (and utterly ridiculous) tactic using said weapon! Step 1: Get 100 KR with chain whip sprenblades Step 2: Attach them end to end Step 3: One KR will hold on to each side of the ~600 foot long whip. They should be Edgedancers or Windrunners Step 4: Send these two KR, holding on to the whip, charging at high speeds around the sides and then through clumps of the enemy, effectively creating a highly mobile and devastating monofilament trip-wire. Step 5: Cook s'mores over the fires that consume the dead bodies of your foes

To respond to your response to my post! First, yes, Shallan has her own issues to work through, but they have not impacted her interpersonal relations in the same way that Kaladin's has. Case in point, the relationship she and Adolin have. Or her brothers. Or Jasnah. Or the deserters she rescued/redeemed. For her, the journey from being single to in a caring, committed relationship is going to be much shorter and easier than Kaladin, because she broke in a different way than he did. I see the character growth happening in both of them, absolutely, but I think it will be easier for Shallan, and so something she might work towards given the end of the world. Kaladin, on the other hand, especially given his proclivities of wanting to protect everyone, may grow in different ways, that demand sacrifices he is willing to make--that end in him not having any romantic partnership. Honestly, I'd lay even odds on whether one develops between him and anyone else by the end of Book 5. Right now, Adolin makes her happy, and at the end of WoR we have her actively fighting to make sure that he knows this, and that she's going to keep fighting to make their relationship work. I like dynamic characters, so long as dynamic doesn't mean "acting against core concepts of the character that we have seen." Kaladin and Shallan may grow closer (I expect them to do so), and Shallan and Adolin may grow apart; but that's not a change that I want to see. I can understand that many people want Shallan and Kaladin to end up together; I did, too, in WoK. Then WoR happened, and Adolin and Shallan just work so well that I want it to continue. I agree with most of the rest of your comments, especially as you seem to be in the 'text-based ship' camp (which is a good place to be!) rather than the 'this is what I really wish would happen ship' camp (which is also a good place!).

Great post, Savanorn. A couple points where I think you've mis-remembered the text: 1. We don't know that Gavilar thinks he can return the Parshendi gods; we know that Eshonai thinks what Gavilar plans to do will return them. A subtle difference, and one that doesn't really change your theory any at all, but still important to note for other discussions, and possibly this one too (although I don't really see how.) 2. The Shin don't view Stormlight itself as profane; Szeth says the way the Alethi are using the Stormlight is profane. Also walking on cut stone. From one of Rysn's Interludes, we learn that shaping metal is also taboo. This, again, does not really hurt your theory much, even though you were using it as supporting evidence. So, if I were you, I'd just get rid of it, and replace it with #3 below! 3. Your theory would help to explain exactly what's happening in the Epigraphs from the in-world WoR in our WoR! So, Kazilah, a KR, seems to have been consorting with 'the enemy' and other 'unwholesome elements.' We can speculate on who this is, but as KR were from all nations and consisted entirely of humans, I think it's safe to assume that it was with nonhumans. This could be Parshendi or Voidbringers, or possibly some spren, or what I find likely: playing around with Midnight Essence, which can be created (WoK, chapter title Starfall, Dalinar's vision). That's likely very strongly linked to Odium. And here we gain a little bit of insight to the Recreance. Granted, a lot can happen in six chapters, but unless Sanderson is toying with us we are being pointed in the direction that whatever was happening in Chapter 32 is a significant cause for the Recreance. This could also be the 'secret' that Mr T has in store to eliminate the KR should they pose a threat/problem to him. This theory also elegantly avoids or explains some issues that I've had with various Nale-theories before (specifically Confused's wonderfully fascinating theories about Odium's prison and the Surges); his use of the word 'could,' along with going after most-but-not-all Surgebinders (ie, Szeth is safe, but it's ok to not go after him if Nale knows that Szeth would never violate his own personal honor in such a way.) The only remaining problem that I can see is how this can tie in with the Recreance, because I still just cannot imagine virtually all of the KR murdering their spren at roughly the same time just to avoid the potential for causing a Desolation in the future.

Who said his family would be alive when he turns ? Imagine what Adolin's response would be if Mr T manages to kill Dalinar and Renarin (or, god forbid, Shallan), and Adolin knew it was him but couldn't prove it. Temptation wouldn't lure him from the side of good, but bloody vengeance? He would cut a swathe so deep and wide that Szeth's would be the work of an amateur in comparison.

I like Shallan far too much to wish Kaladin on her romantically. Despite my personal hang-ups with Kaladin post-WoR (which are irrelevant), think of it this way: Shallan is Tien, and Kaladin is Heleran. Kaladin with Syl makes far more sense in my mind (she is far more forgiving of him killing her than I am), but thinking of who (if anyone) he may end up with romantically just feels odd to me. Post WoK, it made sense, but then WoR happened. He obviously still has more issues to work through, plus the end of the world to survive. It's more likely that he'll have a group of close friends than wind up romantically with any of the major characters we've seen so far, I think. Shallan deserves someone who makes her happy--and Adolin just happens to do this. Adolin is also pretty great in his own right. Oh, and the two happen to be betrothed already, so, that pairing just makes sense to me.

On the bright side, it's a really good theory! And not entirely wrong--just, like, 95%. (I was right there with you, too, thinking that it had to be the Heralds breaking the Oathpact. It makes ALL OF THE SENSE, especially when we find out for sure that KR breaking their oaths kill their spren. That whole bond thing is somewhat related to what Honor did with the Heralds, so it only seems logical--but, alas, no. It makes me sad, because it just straight up killed my pet theory of Honor reforming after the Heralds re-swore the Oathpact and started living it again. But, since that's how I would have done it, and Sanderson is a much better storyteller than me, I look forward to finding out what all is going on.)

I like the change from Dalenar to Dalinar. It's a small thing, but it changes the way I read his name; Day'len'arr (with a long a vowel in the first syllable) as opposed to Dal'en'arr (short a vowel in first syllable.) I also really like the seeming change from Prallan to Parshendi, but that's for two meta reasons that may not exist in Version Prime. First, that's really similar to Shallan's name. Second, and related, it's moderately close to a Vorin naming scheme, rather than something fairly unique to them as a race. While Parshendi could easily be the name of someone in other fiction, it's dramatically different from the Vorin norm, and so sets them apart a great deal. Edit: It seemed to me that Meridas is a councilor to the king, and a merchant. Huge changes to the character if that really was the start of Amaram. And I'm left wondering if Sebariel picked up any of that, as well. If that was Amaram, just imagine what that could mean for Book 3! Definitely seems like the type of guy that Elhokar would hang out with, even (especially?) if Dalinar disapproved. And to echo Feather, it's really super awesome nice to see early drafts of stories, especially ones that have seen substantial changes from start to end. What Brandon posted is, to pat my own back, better than my post-revision/editing efforts of writing stories, but still in the same league; it's not like my high school football team vs. the Seattle Seahawks comparison that generally occurs. Being able to see his writing improve with literally every book he writes is also amazing (I mean, because I love his writing, and I love good authors, and he just keeps getting better, so it's win freaking win). Seeing the process helps to remind us that time, dedication, and effort can see drastically improved results. It...it can get hard, being stuck inside your own stories and unable to see that clearly, and the little reminders go a very long ways.

Bravery can be defined as doing something foolish out of caring for others. Really, the motivation for it is irrelevant, and that seems to be where you're putting the emphasis. Most soldiers don't charge into battle because they're excited or fearless--they do it out of a fear of failing their comrades. Renarin is afraid of failing his family, and so he's willing to do anything to save them. That's brave. You don't have to have analyzed the entire situation and determined what it happening, what the risks are, and how best to act in order for it to be brave. I highly, highly suggest you either talk to or read real accounts of people who have been decorated for heroism, from their point of view. Deep care is the motivation for virtually all of them. If that can get them the highest recognition of courage and bravery in the country (no matter whose country it is, from the US and UK to Russia or China and beyond), then can we at least recognize that Renarin has demonstrated bravery? Another caveat: No one is brave all the time. What someone has endured and faced dozens of times before may be too much them the next time. We see this in real life, and in-book we saw this with the Heralds. Saying that previous actions suddenly aren't demonstration of bravery anymore just because the scariest, most terrifying confluence of events imaginable happen to break them is false logic. Are the Heralds not brave, because they had an option to show courage and instead walked away?

WoR spoilers may be found within!

@Maxal: WoB is that a character with "a book" does not have to be alive; they may die before their book comes around. The point of the book per character is to show their background and history and motivations, so that their actions or inactions make more sense in the grand scheme of things. There is also absolutely no reason to believe that he will survive the series. SERIOUSLY, JUST READ WOR. DON'T CLICK IF YOU HAVEN'T! The stage for Adolin at the end of WoK seemed to be pretty much 100% predictable to me, and then WoR happened. Surprisingly, even though much of Adolin in WoR was predictable, he was also far more likable--as in, I actually liked him, and more than a little bit. A change from in WoK, where I alternated between liking and disliking him, but only to minor or moderate degrees. By the end of WoR, I have no idea where he, as a character is going to go, and that's amazing. Don't count Renarin out just yet even if his path seems predictable to you now. We still have a lot of story to go yet, with twists and turns galore. As different as Renarin is from me, I look forward to continue being surprised by him as Brandon takes him in new and interesting directions.

*ahem* I also tend to be rather direct or blunt or shout-y in efforts to get my point across, but that should be taken as an abundance of exuberance and not anything negative. I think that this has been a great conversation, and the idea Confused brought up is a really neat one that is more than worthy of exploring. The fact that I disagree with it is irrelevant; I love seeing debates and discussions like this one, because it's always really neat to see what and how other people saw in the books that I missed or interpreted differently.

@Aleksiel: I can't seem to find it now, but I'd swear that I read a post from Aether that included a ListTM about mentions of Renarin's box in both books. @lwd: If you already like Renarin from WoK, then I'm pretty sure you'll love him in WoR. There's quite a few huge spoilerific scenes where he gets to demonstrate how great he is; part of his greatness isn't because he's an amazing warrior or fighter like Adolin, but because he's not--and he doesn't let that stop him from doing what is good and right. Even if he's not the 'hero' of the scene, his actions are still heroic. But, yeah, you should really go read WoR now. Or a month or two ago, but that might be hard at this point without a time machine. While I have more issues with WoR than I did WoK, it is still the better book, and imo the best-written by Sanderson yet.

Ah, good point on that, Aleksiel. I think that is only a stronger argument that it's not use of Surges, Surgebinding, or Stormlight that he's trying to stop, tho.

I agree with kari-no-sugata's comments almost entirely (just not about what caused the Recreance ). If we take Nin at his word, then we are faced with this: 1. Lift using Regrowth could return Desolation to the world, and she must be killed. 2. Szeth using INSANE AMOUNTS OF STORMLIGHT TO MURDER PEOPLE ALL AROUND THE WORLD, to the point that it destabilizes multiple nations, is not something that must be stopped. "I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. Szeth-son-Neturo, iwatched you keep your word with perfection. This is a thing lost to most people--it is the only genuine beauty in the world." Nin was not ignorant of Szeth's actions. He wasn't even ignorant of Szeth's emotional state of being. This implies that Nin had multiple opportunities, over a period of time, to closely observe Szeth. If he has more sure knowledge of what causes the Desolations than we do, than nearly anyone in the books do, then surely if usage of Stormlight were responsible he would have killed Szeth. Without being "corrupted by sentiment," he should have had little difficulty in doing so. The differences between Lift and Szeth is that Lift is a proto-KR, and Szeth is using an Honorblade. Desolations occurred before KR existed, so if KR can cause Desolation it must be linked to what they do or how they do it. Szeth using an Honorblade does not threaten to return Desolation to the world, or else presumably Nin would have ended him after he assassinated Gavilar, or perhaps the Highprinces of Jah Keved, or even the king. This may mean that it is the Nahel bond that accelerates Desolation, but almost certainly not Stormlight or even Surges in general; Szeth is the single greatest user of Stormlight in WoK and much of WoR. And, most importantly, even if KR can, by nature of the Nahel bond, cause Desolation to occur in the world, knowledge of this had to have come after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact. Since this relies mostly on negative evidence (there haven't been any Desolations to test it against that we're aware of, after all), rather than positive, I think we can take it with a grain of salt. tl;dr: Nin's inactions regarding Szeth prove that his actions towards proto-KR are not for the commonly held reasons some people assume (it can't be because of the use of Surges or Stormlight).

If it were a mutual agreement between the Radiants and the Spren, then sure. That's the difference between murder and sacrifice. But, it really doesn't seem like the spren were in on this. Entire types of spren (or close to it) were wiped out due to the Recreance. I'm not a spren, and so I don't think like they do, but I'm pretty sure I would try "not binding humans anymore" before "extinction" as an alternative. I agree that the First Ideal has a great deal of wiggle room within it. I was trying to argue that the very mindset of the KR would be opposed to thinking in the way of 'greatest good' because of it, though. They're substantially less likely to think of that as an idea, let alone approve of it as an option. I just can't see the KR knowingly murdering spren wholesale (close, intimate friends of theirs as well), without searching for alternative methods (ie working with the spren) to slow down (not even stop, just slow down) the Desolations. If the bond really does accelerate the pace of Desolations (incredibly unlikely, given the time after the Heralds left, with KR around and no Desolation) then a far more effective means of dealing with that is: convince the spren to not bond with humans anymore. While mass murder can do the trick, for some reason, I'm positive that a less insanely homicidal approach could also work. Whyever the Recreance was, I really think it has to be fundamentally different than just slowing or stopping the Desolations. And it presumably would also have to be something that the spren would find mostly insignificant, or not worth caring about, but of huge import to humans. At a guess, this would deal with the very nature of things--spren seem largely unconcerned with natural Laws, and only slightly more care that Honor is dead. As far as how it all occurred, I just re-read the section where Dalinar sees it happen. Adding spoiler tags to shorten my rapidly expanding post.

Random thought that struck me as my brain is rebelling against being force-fed a steady diet of Anatomy and Physiology 325. Will update later on, but it's basically this: Reasons in favor: Voidbringers can hold Stormlight perfectly. Humans can't. Gemstones can't. Reasons against: I'm pretty sure greatshells evolved before humans arrived, so Stormlight might be of Adonalsium instead (as humans, Honor, and Cultivation arrived before Odium; side question, did humans arrive at the same time as Cultivation and Honor? Or was it staggered? Or do we know?). The Stormfather caused a Highstorm to happen early, suggesting that it's of Honor. Unless Honor was able to steal it when Odium was bound. I'll have more to add tomorrow, and make it prettier, but wanted to get initial thoughts down before I forget. And maybe get some more knowledgeable people to chime in with why I'm wrong

The problem with your theory is that Desolations probably occurred pre-Surgebinders, as spren bonded to humans was something unexpected and unplanned by Honor. There's also a WoB that Desolations start because of Heraldic presence on Roshar (but that they later learned that as long as one of them 'goes back' then they can prevent a new Desolation from starting even while they are still on Roshar). So it seems very unlikely that Surgebinding itself causes Desolations. Speeding them up? Still very much an option (example: while in Damnation/Braize, the Herald(s) use Stormlight to form a prison keeping Odium chained. The more Surgebinders there are, the more Stormlight gets used rather than returned, and so the Heralds are eventually unable to keep Odium chained and they return to Roshar to fight him. I don't think this is the case, but it's a possibility that still fits what we know, and so I'm sure there are others as well). The thing about KR renouncing their vows for the greater good is that the First Ideal is against that thought. Those who become KR shouldn't be thinking along those kinds of lines. It is, very much, "I will do what is right because it is right, and suffer the consequences." They would not kill one innocent in order to save 10, or 100, or 100,000. Because the thought process of what you are suggesting is diametrically opposed to what they believe in, I find it impossible to think that 90% of them would agree to it, in a relatively short period of time. There has to be something more, different, going on--like, Odium is the true source of Stormlight (which I actually half believe, but isn't the point of this post or thread).

(But only on one of his compassionate days. The more intelligent he is, the stingier he is with his precious, precious pity.)

I've given a whole lot of thought about how the Oathpact may come back, including 'anointing' new Heralds. I never seem to be on this site anymore when I have the books with me, but there is an epigraph that talks of 10 standing against the storm (or something to that effect). It would not greatly surprise me if this was either detailing events in the past, regarding the Heralds, or foretelling new Heralds in the future. However, I'm not sure if I'm reading what you're saying correctly in your next thought. The line you seem to be referring to is saying that only one Bondsmith was in continual residence at Urithiru at a time; it's not referring the other orders of KR. I still think there is far more to the Honorblades than we have seen so far. Szeth wielded one with skill, yes, but his understanding of everything was limited and not complete. It could be that in the hands of someone with greater knowledge and experience, they are much, much more than a Shardblade. It's also possible that the way they interact with, say, a Herald is different than the way they interact with someone else (in the same way that a Shardblade is vastly different than a Sprenblade in the hands of its Radiant).

Upvote because I love numbers and statistics, especially when someone else gathers them!

What if your premise is correct (Odium is bound to the Roshar system because of the Unmade), but through Odium's own actions rather than Honor's or anyone else? I remember the WoB being fairly specific that the Oathpact was just between the Heralds and Honor, and no one else. On the other hand, Odium may have created Slivers of Hate in order to combat Honor's Heralds. I'm not sure how easily 6+ could be created, but we've seen something similar happen before.