kaellok

Lots of good points here, too! In the 4v1 Duel that Renarin and later Kaladin joined, it still seems to me that we were mostly seeing the upper-limits of what is possible with someone trained with Blade and Plate from a young age. This could just as easily be because of the Bond between Adolin and Maya somehow granting him limited powers in a way that we haven't precisely seen before. I keep waffling on whether I think that is or is not the case, partially because it's not a way that we've been introduced to a magic system before and partially because I'd like to see Adolin continue to be a big lovable goofball that's deadly with a sword but not superman. @Argel The thing that I'm not okay with in the scene is that, best case scenario, 3v20 resulted in 10+ dead on one side and a wound nobody worried about on the other, from someone we're supposed to believe has no supernatural powers. And that happening in the same scene where Adolin straight thinks at us about how that sort of thing absolutely never happens in reality. Which, I guess, means that it pretty much has to be a giant glowing clue in twenty-foot tall letters that he's not just a normal well-trained human but something more, and my disappointment is from being confronted with that combined with that not being confirmed. So my choices are 'Adolin is not supernaturally enhanced, and the writing in this great scene failed to stick the landing and retroactively makes it worse for me' or 'Adolin is supernaturally enhanced and so they will be exploring a path that I personally find much less interesting.' And while my subconscious went with the sub-par writing option, the discussion in this thread has led me to see what's really going on lol. I really do appreciate the discussion, and I have been trying hard to not be too negative about stuff because it's all about perception. The last thing I want to do is make someone feel worse about the book or the scene if they enjoyed it. I'm still stuck in the post-read feels, and talking through some of this stuff helps. I had similar negative feelings about large swathes of WoR and OB that I now enjoy, or at least don't bother me, so I'm sure that these will change with time, too.

That's a great point, and one I had not considered at all! We've definitely seen a positive evolution of the relationship between Dalinar and the Stormfather occur over the course of Oathbringer and Rhythm of War; it started off fairly rocky, and at times was more than strained, but they seem to have a pretty good working relationship in RoW.

The fight ended minutes before the others arrived. He started the engagement against 20, by himself. An eternity later (so, maybe 30 seconds?) Maya and Gallant joined him. Maybe we're supposed to believe that the Tukari involved in this had little to no training, and that's how Adolin was able to not die immediately? It's so frustrating to me. It should have been a great scene--hells, it was a great scene. But then the aftermath, that he just had a few scrapes and bruises and that one spear thrust that nobody was worried about, cheapened all of that for me. Show some urgency after, rushing to Lasting Integrity and begging for assistance from the Honorspren. That's all it would have taken, because the idea itself of Adolin standing against them isn't so flawed, it's that he does that and can still walk for miles afterwards (even if he eventually ends up riding on Gallant). Not to mention that the amazement of everyone wasn't that Adolin fought, or survived, but it's reserved exclusively for why people attacked the spren. If Adolin is seeing benefit from the bond with Maya (which is fully possible, and we know that she is seeing benefit from it), then it's clearly acting in a way different than anything else we have seen on-screen and explicitly runs counter to the thoughts that Shallan had after they started heading to Lasting Integrity ('The Radiants with them, without Light, barely counted as soldiers at all'). I'd love to see this bond explored in the narrative, similar to how we've seen every other magic system explored at least somewhat on-screen before it starts being critical to the plot.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I want to call this out in particular and give Kaladin a pass on it. At times the friendship is forced on him by Adolin, and at other times Kaladin allows himself to be dragged along. And even when we see it in RoW, Kal makes the choice to trust Syl's judgment that he should go out and have fun with Adolin. It can be impossibly hard to make that choice on your own during a depressive episode, so I think that he deserves leeway for this one. I'm about to say some negative stuff, so I just want to preface by saying that I really enjoyed RoW. I think it was easily the worst of the Stormlight Archive so far, but that still means it's a good book that I was basically unable to put down until I had finished reading it. I also think that it's great when people enjoy parts of the books and stories that I don't; I'd honestly feel bad for the author if absolutely everyone disliked the same parts of the book. And those parts I don't particularly care for can make the parts that I do enjoy a lot pop out even more by comparison. Anyway! You make great points here. Absolutely excellent ones. It would have been amazing to see more of them on-screen. I'd've loved to see a scene or two about how Kaladin initially deals with the training structure, and then has to adjust because of shenanigans, and how that develops into the current formalized structure of the Windrunners. I would also love to know what the current structure of the Windrunners actually looks like. The #2 thing that I want from RoW that was teased but not provided is more time with Kaladin inventing the field of Psychology/Therapy. Give me 90% less Pursuer, replaced with Kaladin trying to keep these people who already had next to no hope and had tried to kill themselves at least once alive and getting better. Seeing on-screen Kaladin taking charge and inspiring people is what is great about Kaladin to me. People saying that Kaladin takes charge and inspires people is not, at all, the same. Even with the residents of Urithuru inspired by Kaladin keeping up the fight, it was way too much tell instead of show. I'm told they're inspired; they say they're inspired; but I don't ever understand why they feel hope because of a glowing dude flying around. The scene when they band together to protect the Radiants is awesome! I loved it! But--it would have been more powerful to have a better understanding of why they felt that way. The much more interesting story, to me, of Kaladin working in and among the people and protecting and helping and organizing and leading them during the invasion just didn't happen. Instead, we get Kaladin the Unstoppable forced to fight again and again because of plot-related McGuffins--even giving him his own pseudo-replacement to his Lashings because of course those don't work because of reasons not explored, but here's a glove. I'd've loved to see Venli actually use her Radiant powers, especially the ones that we haven't seen on display at all ever before, to take a more prominent role in protecting those plot-related McGuffins so that Kaladin could be freed up to do what he supposedly does best but we see so little of on-screen. Kaladin's character arc, despite all of my faults, is perfectly fine, although like others have mentioned I would have expected the interactions of others to have had a textual impact on his way of thinking and ability to say and mean the necessary Words without an Act of Demigod bringing the ghost of his dead brother to speak to him. The story and plot arcs, however, didn't mesh with it nearly as well as they could have, which resulted in many of the scenes feeling like they were unnecessary, redundant, or the less interesting thing going on in the Tower, which ultimately undermined the strength of those climactic scenes for me.

Glad people thought he was cool! And @Naerin may end up changing my mind about him after the book's had more time to settle in my mind. On a first read-through, though, Lezian is just Wile E Coyote, except without any of the charm or substance. I never felt like Kal was in any true danger from any of the fights; I did appreciate when there started being other risks that he had to deal with instead, but because of my intense disinterest in the villain they seemed more artificial and less organic. (I felt this was largely the case with Kal's entire post-invasion arc. I also absolutely hated everything Kaladin-related that weren't the Chasm scenes in WoR, but on subsequent read-throughs have no problems and enjoy and look forward to a lot. I apparently just don't like Kaladin's arcs in even-numbered Stormlight books the first time I read them.) Characters, whether antagonists or protagonists, villains or heroes, that have only one 'thing' are incredibly boring to me, and the opposite of compelling. And right or wrong, characters that bore me don't generate any emotion at all. If the goal was an unabashedly evil Fused that we could hate, for me that failed, because--I mean, what is there to hate? Lezier: I HUNT THE ONE THAT KILLED ME! THIS IS WHAT I DO! IT'S THE ONLY THING I DO! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT, AND I AM SUPER-FAMOUS FOR IT! WAAAAAAH! Me: Sir, this is a Wendy's.

Secret societies gonna secret. There's any number of reasons that mostly all boil down to different organizations want different things, even if they had been allies up until that point. Maybe the Ghostbloods were only after proof of concept of an idea, and once that had been obtained, had no further use for the Sons of Honor and little wish for renewed conflict. Maybe literally the only thing they cared about was getting the gem containing BAM, and seeding Roshar with voidspren was the price they had to pay, but then Gavilar reneged on the deal. Maybe they wanted a return of the Heralds and Desolations and a final war that actually ends, but they didn't want Gavilar becoming an effectively immortal Cognitive Shadow. Gavilar not mentioning BAM directly is somewhat interesting because his mention of the storm explicitly states that that is what will restore the minds to the Singers stuck in slave-form. Which, given what we know of Kalak, doesn't seem like it would be the preferred method if they had it available; if nothing else, surely Amaram would have freed them if the gem was available. I can kinda see an argument that Gavilar was after a Human v. Singer fight to extinction, and not concerned with Everstorm. Given his sources of information, though, it's hard to realistically believe that he could separate them out. And whether he was responsible for the Everstorm, I believe that he did plan on using it. And I tend to give strongly worded replies, as I subscribe to the Assuredness Movement of scholars for myself (but hypocritically find fault with others for doing so, because in my infinite wisdom only I know the exact degree to which it is permissible), so want to call out specifically that I think it's great to look at things from different points of view than the prevailing theories or what seems to be suggested by the books. There's a lot of misdirection going on that we experience because of the differing viewpoints. It's wonderful and great, and could entirely be in keeping to slowly have our opinions shaped from Gavilar Is A Great Man shift to Gavilar Is Super Not Cool and then back to Gavilar Wasn't So Bad After All.

Woops! Thanks for letting me know. Editing post now.

I don't think that it's a 'hint'. Kalak, in a moment of channeling who he used to be, flat-out confirms this. Granted, anything the Heralds say should be looked at with suspicion, I think that this is more solid than 'hint' usually implies. I do like there being an un-augmented human among the group of superhuman Radiants. Adolin going 20v1 and not just surviving, but winning, was a little much for me; it was a great scene that would have been improved upon if he'd actually been gravely wounded and they had to rush to Honorbound Windbags and beg for Light to save him through Regrowth. I was more scared for Adolin dying in that scene than I was for any of Kal's fights in RoW just because the risk of death seemed real at the time, while Kal was fighting Wile E. Coyote who literally never wins. I don't like Navani bonding the Sibling long-term. I think that it works well as a temporary arrangement in order to save their collective back-sides, but the bond should end. Sibling: "I'm literally about to die, and Bonding you is literally my only chance to stay alive, but you won't stop imprisoning spren!" Navani: "Look, we can talk about that later." She didn't say she'd stop, because she has no intention of doing so and that's something that the Sibling hates so much that they went to special effort to talk to her about it. She sang to push back the Voidlight some, which is impressive and is something big, but that's the only thing that I can recall her doing that actually resulted in helping the Sibling in any way (some of what she did was honest attempts that backfired terribly, but I don't think that the Sibling would necessarily see it that way since they like, specifically said they didn't). It would be neat seeing the effects of someone who was Radiant for a time being able to step away from that, and what that means for them and for others around them. Although, it might be too late after swearing the First Ideal; I can't remember now where Kaladin was when Syl told him that there was something happening between the two of them, and they could stop it.

Maybe earlier on he did. But by the time he died, he wanted to be immortal. And not just in the way of his legacy and what he'd leave behind (as Dalinar tells us in Oathbringer), but likely something much more literally eternal--akin to the Heralds. That does not, at all, sound like the words of someone who is interested in doing good, but instead has a different focus. Specific mention of the storm. A desire to ignite a new war. Again, this is incredibly on the nose. Maybe Gavilar 6 years ago didn't want this, but Gavilar did on the day he died.

Emphasis mine. We learn for sure in RoW that a sufficiently invested Radiant (like Kaladin) can serve as an anchor of sorts for spren who have crossed into the Physical Realm. We know that the Cryptics, possibly more than any other spren, saw the Oathpact fracturing and trying to establish a way to fight against what is coming. I don't think that Pattern's words that he can leave, or that she will kill him, are representative of the way that the Cryptics initially reached out to her, though. I think that what happened to Testament caused the change in approach. Honestly, the more I learn about Pattern, the more amazing he is. He completely believed that bonding with Shallan would kill him, his hope only being that even if she couldn't forgive him for making her remember that she would be able to Bond the one who took his place.

Shallan being Shallan, I'm not completely sold on how much of the powers she exhibits is Shallan, how much is the pseudo-bond with Testament, and how much is the budding bond with Pattern. The Memories are definitely supernatural. We're not sure when she starts her Bond with Pattern--is it days after Testament died? Years? Does it start to happen before WoK, or during? It's still Shallan, so what she believes/thinks and what is true is...super wobbly. But she definitely thinks that she has a Blade that she can summon in WoK, prior to the first time we see her Soulcast something.

I think that we can look at Sadeas's track record, his own statements for his plans, and how easy it was for his entire army to be turned to Odium (a feat which seemingly had not occurred before, given the shock from the Fused) to extrapolate that a living Sadeas would have caused more harm than good. I think that the biggest argument to be made that it was something wrong is that Adolin, who perpetrated the murder, thought it was wrong and sought to hide from the action instead of reporting it openly. I'm sure that there's a lot of people that lived hard, resentful lives filled with terrible childhoods on Roshar if they are required to have children to be considered a family. Children can be the point and even expected, in no way am I saying anything against that; I'm literally saying that having children tends to exacerbate preexisting problems and issues in relationships, while also causing new ones. Anyone thinking of having children to somehow make themselves feel whole or better is going to be stacking the odds in favor of that child having an awful, awful childhood. That's something that doesn't depend on society, culture or time period. If Adolin somehow feels he needs children in order to be complete (which isn't something that I've seen even vaguely hinted at anywhere in the book other than a line or three across 4000+ pages about he might need an heir someday), then I hope that Shallan can maybe suggest he take part in Kaladin's new Mental Health Initiative to find out what's really going on and get that addressed instead.

Dabbid speaking is one of the few great moments that stood out on my first read of RoW.

10,000% agree with the bolded part. Infinity% disagree with the italicized. You can have family without children; you can have children without having family. People should not have children in order to make a family, they should make a family in order to have children. After deleting three separate rants, I'll limit my words to "I concur."

1. Adolin was the only one who advanced the story of the novel in any way in the Shadesmar group. Shallan could have been locked in a closet and there would have been zero difference to the Shadesmar expedition or Adolin's trial as a whole, except he'd've been asking "Why couldn't Shallan be here?" instead of "Where is Shallan? She's usually late, but at least shows up". Maybe I missed her interacting in any way to help his trial? He may even have been able to get the information from Kalak based entirely on the treatment and subsequent reaction of Maya during the trial. For me, the largest problem with the novel is that character arc and story arc should mesh for an impressive climax. For the third time in a row, Shallan's was a miss. (Shallan is my favorite character in the Cosmere, the one I relate to the most, so I'm saying this from a place of pained disappointment in the author rather than the character). Nothing that she did in the entire novel mattered to anything else anybody else was doing anywhere. There's that potential setup for the Ghostbloods in the next novel, though! Just like at the end of WoK, WoR, and OB! So--there's that. 6. I was really confused that this was a Navani book, because I didn't realize that she was getting one. There's nothing anyone can do to convince me that this is Venli's book. 7. I did actually like the flashback scenes, but I don't think that they added anything much. With Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar we got wide swathes of history for them, seeing them as children and grow into broken adults that helped to explain and inform who they are on-screen now. I do think that it's funny (but not haha funny) that Venli had so much Younger Sibling Syndrome, being overshadowed by Eshonai, that even in her own book she didn't get to have her own flashbacks but instead had to share. I've rarely (if ever) read a novel that I enjoyed so much that still left me feeling so profoundly disappointed at the end. I vaguely remember feeling the exact same way at the end of Oathbringer, except that there were a lot of scenes and moments that stood out to me at the time that are still great now. And when I finished my recent re-read of it, none of the things that had bothered me originally were still there. But I quite honestly don't have any stand-out moments from RoW. There's a lot of small moments, like Dabbid talking, that were peppered throughout that kept me engrossed and unable to put it down. Those small moments are great, and masterfully tossed in--a lot of times, like that one with Dabbid, waiting so long to happen that you think it won't. And then it just does. However, there was no moment when Kaladin leaps across the chasm to the Tower, there was no Chasm scene, there was no Unity. The Trial was good, but pretty heavily foreshadowed and Maya's powerful moment (and it was! it was so powerful!) is just a reskinned "YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN!" moment. I think that there was just too much plot and not enough story, and even given the months of time that the book covers, it felt like we only spent a little bit of time to let the characters sit and breathe and be (edited to add: but those moments when we did get were great!) Hoping that I feel differently in a year or two when I do a re-read.

I'd say that Szeth is Lawful Neutral. Dalinar is his Law, but he has sworn to obey it completely, to view it as his Ideal. To be Good he would have to be more confident in his own ability to interpret good from evil, moral from immoral. And Szeth is probably the most Lawful character in the entire series that we have seen, possibly second to the Shards who are bound in the ways that they are able to act; Szeth is able to act in those ways, but chooses not to, in order to obey the Code/Law he follows. I do see an argument for Szeth being Neutral Good in RoW exclusively. Moash is very clearly Neutral Evil to me, too. The man who turned against his brothers in order to gain his own revenge, a vengeance that could only be sated through murder. A man who was given multiple opportunities to not be selfish, to choose another path, to choose to be different. Each time, he willingly chose to not be welcomed back by his friends. Each time, he willingly chose to give his will to another just so he wouldn't have to feel the consequences of his actions anymore. Maybe he's been influenced by the Unmade and other supernatural forces, but even when he first started working with Graves he was only in it to get revenge on Elhokar. He's selfish, through and through, and will do anything to keep from feeling the pain of the consequences of his actions.

Yes, he absolutely did. Sort of. There are many sections in WoK where he feels like he is struggling to uphold ideals that are important to Dalinar because they are important to Dalinar, even though Adolin does not necessarily agree. In WoR, Adolin calls out several times where his father thinks highly of his character and who he is, and Adolin disagrees with the assessment fairly strongly. That presumption of goodness definitely causes struggle within Adolin, to prove that he is worthy of it. Moash spent months plotting intricate schemes to assassinate the sitting ruler of a nation, despite knowing what happened that last time that occurred and the chaos brewing in the world in general as the Assassin In White began attacking again. Adolin stabbed someone in the eye after they made very credible threats to slowly grind down and kill everything and everyone he had ever known and loved. There was a part of Adolin that was motivated by revenge, sure, that small part that was amused at the panic in Sadeas's face as he began to die. Mostly, though, he was angry and furious and knew that Sadeas's attacks would. Never. Stop. And so, much like Jasnah provoked the criminals in the alleyway and then Transformed them into fire and crystal and smoke in order to end a threat that the local society could or would not, Adolin murdered Sadeas to put an end to him. But literally the entire motivation for Moash was revenge. Nothing else. He tries saying it's for justice, Kaladin calls him out for it, and Moash agrees with the assessment.

You're forgetting one for Pattern. And it's easy to forget, because it was in the middle of Kaladin's fight with Szeth. The Blade in the chasm was almost definitely Testament, but the one that activated the Oathgate was 10000% Pattern. And it explains why she needed to speak a Truth if she already had a Patternblade--because she didn't, not until that moment. Edit since I forgot to read the whole thread! @Isilel pointed out this missing Truth before me, although we have different conclusions regarding it.

It took me a minute to understand what you're saying here, and I might still have it wrong, so let me know if I do Nale is broken, and is seeking out people who are broken in similar ways or who can be broken in similar ways. These people are the ones who are the potential Skybreakers. So the pool that we're seeing are ones that are selected for attributes that don't align with what the Order was in the past, or what it should represent. And if Jezrien had similarly been recruiting for potential Windrunners, we would equally see those that more closely exhibited his type of broken, rather than what they can/should/must be. Nale's praise of Szeth's unflinching adherence to the code in this context is thus actually damning. Somewhat like a known brutal serial killer coming up and whistling, saying "Wow, now that was a good murder!" and taking that as a positive endorsement. I can wholeheartedly agree with that! Within the narrative, we definitely see a lot more of the positive aspects and attributes of the Windrunners. The 'flaw' for them that we've seen is that they can be too protective, while the 'flaw' we've seen with Skybreakers is literally throwing the world into chaos just before a massive enemy invasion, or also the brutal (if legal) killing of a street thief. We also have not seen strict adherence to an outside law or ideal used as a positive in any meaningful way that I can recall. It all seems to be about twisting the law in order to achieve the ends the person wants (not just from Skybreakers, that seems to be a major recurring theme in the books that those with legal power will use that legal power to enrich and empower themselves more at the expense of others). I would definitely welcome seeing more in the narrative that show what the Skybreakers could have been like.

Ulim is a spren of Odium. Ulim absolutely tricks many of the Listeners into sacrificing themselves so that they Fused can be born. Words like "You'll have a form of power" that are technically true, but violate the Intent egregiously. While spren are more free to act in ways other than their Shard, I do think that a significant portion of the whole Intent thing comes from Rayse. Maybe not even most, but enough that he doesn't go looking for gimmicks that would meet the Intent as stated while also undermining the agreement. Or maybe it's because over time Odium changed Rayse to be like that, and Mr T is new to the position and so has more freedom. Dalinar is the holder of Honor's power, and has made a prior contract with Intent with Taravangian. All Taravangian has to do is end the war immediately, then show up on top of Urithuru and reveal the true extent of what has happened. Dalinar and Mr. T embrace, and it's all over. Including the travel restrictions on Odium.

100x this. That's a lot of 'supposed to be' that we're not seeing put into practice on page, though. See Nale spending weeks, months, or possibly even longer to find evidence of crimes committed proto-Radiants that he can then execute them for after spending more time obtaining the legal permission to do so. He ignores everything else most (all?) of the time, unless it directly and specifically stops him in his path. Selective enforcement of The Law, especially by choosing who you hunt rather than who you let free, goes immediately back to them making moral decisions. If the 5th Ideal is that you're above making mistakes of that nature, then Nale should know that he is not because he's said multiple times that he is compromised. And yet, he keeps on relying upon his selective interpretation of the laws in order to fit his own agenda. That is a weakness inherent in the system, and one which his spren does not (cannot? will not?) guard against. I think that Szeth is a perfect case-study in why unflinching dedication to a code is a weakness. The dude is super-broken and set the world afire because of his code. He was willing to do terrible, awful things that he himself considered to be terrible and awful because he was following his code. Someone was deliberately manipulating him and using his code against him, and he was powerless to stop it until he literally died. That is a giant weakness. It might also be their greatest strength. Thematically, it would be fitting for it to be both.

Not stupid at all! It's definitely not something that's super-obvious. And there's not a lot of obvious ways to clue readers in to that without coming across as potentially problematic, or not genuine to the characters in the story. Eye color means a great deal to Alethkar and Jah Keved, so that's one of the first things that they look at and look for. And to them, their eyes are normal, what they see all the time; that's why they call out the Shin for having a different shape. So it's left pretty much entirely up to the reader to understand that the Shin are different, what that difference is, and what that being different means for the looks others. Because of the subtlety of the description it becomes very easy for a certain image to be locked in place in the reader's mind before they ever figure it out. So on the one hand I'm like, 'wow, that's an awesome way to combine description and world-building in a very true to the story manner that rewards the reader when they solve the puzzle' but on the other I'm like 'I didn't even know there was a puzzle'. I hope that this is common, but I'm intensely self-centered and this is one of those assumptions I don't feel safe to make. I do know that there have been some people that I follow for writing advice that say that it's important to hit the reader early and then look for excuses to reinforce the differences when including a diverse cast (and also some good suggestions on how to do so in ways that aren't demeaning, objectifying, or making it seem like their only purpose is to check a box off a list). I'm not sure if keeping the cool puzzle is worth readers like me not realizing that the main cast looks fairly different than me (see: self-centered). Also not sure how to cause the description without it seeming completely out of place for the character and the scene. There some potential for it to happen in the prologue of WoK, with Szeth, but the nature of what follows could easily make for that being quite problematic.

Time for my overly-complicated answer of the day! Delve deep into way more than you asked. References available upon request as long as you promise not to call them at night. Adonalsium (who might be the God Beyond, but even if not seems to have been revered as a divinity) was Shattered into 16 pieces, or Shards. This number wasn't deliberate, and it could have broken in different ways, but it also didn't break in a completely random way, either. Each of those Shards was full of power, or Investiture, and the people who picked them up to wield said power are known as Vessels. Well, people who are currently holding one of these Shards are known as Vessels, there's been some turnover over the past several thousand years. While not God, those Vessels/Shards have godlike powers, and are often worshiped as divine, although more often than not there seems to be 2+ layers before you get there. (People on Roshar worship the Stormfather as the Almighty, and we all know how close to accurate that is. And this is one of the ones that's more spot-on, with relatively few layers of obfuscation around.) A Shard will have a certain primary attribute, or Intent, which is how people in the know refer to them (Honor, Cultivation, etc.). Over time, the Vessel's personality will merge with that of the Shard's Intent. Particularly strong-willed Vessels can hold out longer, or can alter the shape or expression of that Intent to a degree. Kaladin and Syl explore this and the idea of what is honorable quite a bit. There are other spren and Radiants that also explore what it means to be honorable, that end up with very different answers. This can be seen as a similar conflict between Vessel and Shard, although at what is a comparatively microscopic level, and the Radiants tend to have a bit more freedom of deviation because of Cultivation's influence. But there's some actions that Tanavast-As-Honor could take that, hypothetically, Rayse-As-Honor would not be able to, as well as actions that each would not be able to do for the same reason. This is a giant digression, though, but one that I think is very interesting. There are some people that are aware of this greater knowledge of the Cosmere, but most people aren't. Civilization existed prior to Adonalsium's Shattering, though, and it's fairly strongly hinted that some of those peoples are still around, and had some form of their beliefs make it to Roshar. And then there's also the Heralds and Honor themselves who provided some direct knowledge to humans on Roshar that has had some carryover. That makes for at least 3 different sources of this type of knowledge that have affected the mythology and religions on Roshar, and in the Cosmere as a whole (just gonna cross this out because I want to keep a stronger association with the Number 2), with most of it being through a game of 'Telephone' that's lasted a few hundred to a few thousand years. So they've managed to get things varying degrees of right and wrong. Each Shard, with their Intent, also seems to be associated with a specific Number. The number 10, for instance, is very strongly associated with Honor (10 Heralds, 10 Surges, 10 Orders of Radiants, supposedly 100 Desolations, etc.). And with Odium, we see the number 9 crop up a lot (9 Unmade, 9 shadows coming from His Champion, etc.). Cultivation is less clear and not known that I am aware of, but my guess is 2 (a boon and a bane, 2 surges per Herald/Radiant, She is probably a sith, etc.). A Shard's interaction with a planet that creates the magic system, which then tends to have patterns that reflect back to the Shard's Number. The Vessel tends to have very limited control over how this magic manifests itself, so if there is a cause/effect here to the best of my knowledge it is unknown which is which. It is also known that each Shard on a planet will mess with the magic system of other Shards, creating interesting mixtures of them. So, let's put it together to make some assumptions! There's a strong, but vague, idea that the Divine is separated in distinct Attributes. Honor is strongly associated with the number 10, so his follows come up with 10 of these Attributes to apply to him, possibly on their own and possibly with his guidance. The magic that developed demanded both 10 Surges overall, and <untested theory> Cultivation's influence limited this to 2 Surges per person <end of untested theory>. If not due to Cultivation's influence, then it likely goes back to the symmetry thing. With 10 Surges total, and 2 Surges per person, we're back to 10 pairs of Surges. Each pair goes to a Herald, and then later to a Radiant Order which is then associated with the Herald that shares the pair. So to answer your question--the people devising and assigning the Attributes don't know any better, and very likely don't think of even Cultivation as anything other than a god for pagans, certainly not to be associated with their precious Almighty (Honor). And there are 10 Orders of Radiants rather than 16 because they are Knights of Honor rather than Knights of Adonalsium (although it's likely that Adonalsium would be associated with the number 154, instead of 16, because there's already a Shard associated with 16. Adonalsium would be the sum of all Shards, and thus the sum of all Numbers, and thus 154.)

Spoilers for the WoB and I might have been reading a little too much into this one below and another that doesn't quite say what I remembered

There's a few WoB about this, actually! The short of it is that Nightblood is a rather larger threat to the Vessel, than to the Shard. And we saw Odium take some proactive defensive measures in the Thaylen City battle that hint that he's strongly aware of Nightblood's capability.