kaellok

Edit: Long post. Some of it sounds angry/mean. Not meant that way. All of the questions I ask are specific points that happen within the books, and I think that reasonable people could consider them all to be honorable. Even the ones that directly contradict each other. So, since you are having a problem with characters not acting honorably, maybe you should define what you mean? Is it honorable to lie to people? Is it honorable to always be completely forthright and 100% honest, even about things that wouldn't have been brought up or discussed in conversation otherwise? Is it honorable to defend the weak? Is it honorable to put yourself in a position of weakness so that those who enjoy abusing their strength will attack you--and you then defend yourself? Is the use of an assassin dishonorable? What if it's to kill someone acting within the confines of an immoral law? ie, is it moral to kill/murder a mass murderer without a trial, because there was no law saying that murder/mass murder is wrong? Is blind obedience to the law actually honorable? Is it honorable to execute someone for a crime done decades ago, when they had no clear knowledge of what they were doing ahead of time, and spent the years making up for it? Since you provide no examples of what is dishonorable, or what is honorable either really, I'm assuming you think that Shallan is super-dishonorable because of her lies (as is quite common.) Would you find Army scouts, using stealth and deception to spy upon the enemy, to be dishonorable? If not, what is the difference between those kinds of deceptions and the lies that Shallan tells? Do you really think that she believes herself in safe, friendly territory when she has freshly arrived in a place where literally no one knows her, and weren't even expecting her--after having been attacked by an assassin that she trusted only a short time ago? Further, at what point does she ever break her word once given? At all? Sure, she lies to others about who she is, her goals, etc.--but when she says she'll do something, by storms she does it. How in Harmony's name is that not honorable? And she keeps to that in multiple times--far more than the "two" you give her. Is it honorable to live? Is it honorable to find that which is beautiful even in a world filled with hatred and brutality and violence? Is it honorable to see yourself truly, as you are? Dalinar doesn't, Kaladin won't. Is it worse to lie to yourself, or to others? Each Order of Radiants does view honor differently. Entirely differently. But not just differently than each other, but apparently also differently than you yourself see it. That doesn't mean they are wrong; nor does it mean you are wrong. In what ways do Jasnah and Shallan not live up to the First Ideal? Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination. I'm honestly curious about this, because we apparently read the same books and saw drastically different characters. Shallan could have slaughtered everyone in Amaram's camp no problem; she could have cut him down, no problem, when she found out that he has her brother's blade (and thus, believes that Amaram killer her brother Heleran.) A dishonorable person certainly would have. Someone who didn't follow the First Ideal would have, too. Jasnah has made of herself a giant freaking target because she knows she can probably live through anything they throw at her, it will cause them to expend resources needlessly, and will aid in the work she finds necessary. How is that not living up to the First Ideal? (I'm meaning the assassins like Kabsal and his ilk, not the alleyway.) They don't go hunting down their enemies to kill them, but instead destroy them after they have revealed themselves to all. How is that not the First Ideal? Also, keep in mind, it is an Ideal for a reason--rather than an oath or a promise or guarantee. Even when you put life first, sometimes death has to happen. Look at Kaladin, and the climax of WoK. Was it honorable for him to go back and save Dalinar and his army? Was it honorable to slaughter the parshmen that fought fairly? Can an action be both honorable and dishonorable at the same time? With this insight, do the actions of all of the characters change for you at all? WoR is a powerful novel, and I love it. There's a whole lot that I wish had been done differently (see my previous post), but I simply don't see a lack of honor from any of the main characters (except for Kaladin's needless wish to assassinate the person he swore to protect. That was dishonorable as all get-out). You want to see the real dishonorable ones? Look to Amaram and Sadeas. Even Mr T, who is conducting murder on a global scale, is acting honorably in his own fashion. To act with honor, for me, is to put others above your own self. But, for real--Amaram plays a game of putting others above himself, but it's just a lie. Sadeas, too, is entirely selfish. Of course, I'm sure your own definition is quite a bit different than mine. And that's okay. But I'd still love to hear what it is.

I always suggest Warbreaker first, and then Mistborn, followed by Elantris or Way of Kings. Warbreaker is relatively short, the story is entirely self contained, can be obtained for free on the Web (it still can, right?), and is really solid... while also introducing a lot of the basics of the Cosmere (even if the reader isn't really aware at the time.) Mistborn original trilogy is done and complete, and quite good (it suffers on re read imo, but not being the best ever and only really good is still really good.) It also sets up the grand, epic scope of conflict. Elantris is really good, but was his first published novel, and it shows. The writing is by far the weakest of the Cosmere novels. Stormlight Archive i suggest to read last, even though they are my favorite, because the are LONG, and INCOMPLETE. Huge, massive blocks to people that want to get interested in the author's works as a whole, in my experience. Assuming that the Front 5 books were complete, my opinion would change... but that's still half a decade away. Or more.

It is an interesting thought for humans to be able to force a bond on the spren, especially with the opposite example of the parshmen--which spren can force a kind of bind upon.

I think that if the dead spren were merely (effectively) banished to Cognizant Realm upon physical death, that the Stormfather and other spren wouldn't be so upset at humans post Recreance. It really seems like the"dead" spren are in a coma-like state until forced to appear, which then feels like torture--hence, screaming. WoB also had it that Radiant betraying the Oaths results in something physically similar to yanking a data jack out of the spren, a la The Matrix.

I would agree that there is definitely a correlation between Jasnah's distance from her mother and when Jasnah broke/bonded Ivory. However, think about it--her mother is an artifabrian, and all modern fabrials use trapped spren. What would happen if a bonded, sentient spren were trapped to power a fabrial? What sort of experiments would artifabrians wish to conduct? (Even if Navani wouldn't have done these things, I can't imagine that she wouldn't start looking for other sentient/stronger spren as well, which would lead others, which would--bad things.) Towards what broke Jasnah, physical abuse at the hands of a man that is hinted at is the boring answer. It's the predictable answer. I genuinely hope for it to be a red herring simply because I have higher expectations from Sanderson as an author. And, if it had been Amaram, then Amaram would be dead. I hope that we can all agree to that; she had secured the services of a Shardblade-wielding assassin, after all, and at the time Amaram had some political power and probably a well-crafted suit of armor and sword that would be zero defense at all. Whatever problem that she had with him was something else entirely.

To shift the topic away from the new alternate ending (which does things I don't approve of and dislike, both on principle and based on the changes themselves) and back on topic! Two of my favorite scenes that Sanderson has ever written are in WoR. The Chasm scene, which I have spoken of before, is just--beautiful. Start to finish, there is nothing that I can think of that would have made it stronger or better; there are no weak points to it (and while I may not be that great at building things, and thus may miss areas for improvement, I am a grandmaster demolisher. I can, will, and do break anything and everything, many times completely on accident. But not always. And so I am quite good at focusing in on areas that are weak or need improvement.) The only way to make it stronger actually occurs after the chapter is over, when Shallan and Kaladin are clambering out and arriving back in camp; I agree with Maxal that seeing that through Adolin's eyes would have been more interesting than Dalinar's. The flashback scene where Shallan meets Hoid, though--it's. I don't have the words. It plucks a string that reaches from my present and into my childhood. To circle back to the HoA discussion very briefly, the ending was quite bittersweet--but for it to have gone any other way would have made a weaker story. Those that died had to die, while those that lived had to live. And no one else could have been the actual Hero of Ages. No matter how sad or angry it makes us, the sacrifices the characters made were all necessary for the best outcome to happen. I do think it would be interesting for an author to play with what would happen if one of the main characters should die, but doesn't, and what that means for the world in a fairly actual/realistic take, but that's neither here nor there. Unless it is over there... And hidden Easter eggs! Mraize is a world-hopper, with various trinkets and trophies from different worlds--see how many you can identify! And, just in case you haven't read Warbreaker yet, you might want to. Because, um, yeah. Awesome world-breaking scary-future things. It makes the wait for Book 3 that much harder.

In WoR, the Dalinar flashback scene shows what i interpreted as a void spren (the red one) "corrupting" another spren. At work and been awhile, so I've forgotten the specific details. Anyway, that process seems to be similar and yet opposite of the spren + different spren = Shard plate idea. (Ie, seems plausible because similar mechanics exist in world) Unless I've managed to mis remember altogether, so if someone could check would appreciate it. Or i can in a few hours when i get home

The Alethi culture has few problems with using slaves as cannon fodder; why on earth would you think they would have a problem with using the corpse of someone they never met that gives them untold power in battle? Some will have a problem, but they will be the significant minority.

I was creating a character for Everquest 16 years ago or so, a frog paladin. I was also watching Titan A.E. i really liked the name of the main character, Cayle, but it was taken. So were the variants i tried. Then i was like, "hey, EQ calls them frogloks." So i tried combining words that sounded like Cayle but ended in lok. And I've been using Kaellok as my user name ever since.

So, it's PAX weekend starting tomorrow. And, thanks to timely sacrificing a few souls, i have both passes and time off to attend. Anyone else in the Seattle area that will be going and want to meet up? Or, are there any requests of game booths to visit/check out and report on?

I actually really enjoyed high school. A set of rules that resulted in predictable reactions from others if followed, or if broken, along with adults that actually cared--very different from life at home, and a truly welcome escape. No way in hell I'd go back, though, as the teen years are more than just school. Physically, i wish i didn't hurt as much because of dumb things i did when younger. Jumping off the roof of house or shed for fun, and then later off of tanks rather than climbing, has given me some knees that despise the cold, and generally hate me. Overall tho, I'm 33 and in the competition of life am definitely not losing. To change how things happened before would be to change who i am now, and to hell with that; I'm AWESOME ☺

Your question will be definitively answered through reading the trilogy. Simple yes/no answer to your question is spoilered below.

I really, really, really, (insert 10^54 more really) think that Warbreaker should point to WoK. Under no circumstances should someone think it's okay to pick up WoR without having read WoK. Maybe the chart isn't actually saying that (although relatively fluent in chartspeak, it is very much a third language for me) -- but it certainly seems to say that. I'm not sure that I'd consider The Emperor's Soul a mandatory read. Although it absolutely helps a lot with understanding the Realmatics, it is relatively inconsequential in terms of story. I'd consider the Ars Arcanum in the back of the books to be as mandatory as TES, and for much the same reasons. Certainly a debatable point, though Otherwise it looks amazing, and I think you guys have done tremendous work. (Both the original by The YoungBard and the color-coded prettified one by navybrandt. I read Alloy of Law without having re-read the Mistborn trilogy, so there was a good 1.5-2 year gap from the last time I'd read Mistborn until reading it. It is critical to have read the original trilogy first, but it's not necessary to read them straight through. There were some things that I didn't pick up on until I did the full re-read through that I likely would have picked up initially, but not as much as I'd have thought. Alloy of Law is also rather significantly different stylistically vs. Mistborn. ie, it's definitely its own series/trilogy, and not Book 4. That said, I positively adore Warbreaker, and so encourage everyone to read it. Elantris is also really, really good, but the writing isn't nearly as good as his later works (which means it's only well written, instead of really well written.) With Bands of Mourning due out soon-ish, I'd recommend moving to the other novels after finishing Hero of Ages, and then coming back. It'll definitely be better to read Alloy of Law + Bands of Mourning back to back vs. time delay + lots of novels in between. (If my rambling makes sense.)

This is what I disagree with The Knights agreed it had to be done. Or were somehow forced into it (as in, magically forced. Not some mundane threat/coercion.) If the spren actually agreed, then it doesn't make sense to me that they would now come back and start Bonding with humans again. If the spren agreed, then Pattern would have said, "You will have to kill me, but it's worth it..." rather than "You will kill me, but it's worth it..." The Stormfather...well, he may have reacted just the same regardless. Also, even if the spren initially agreed, I'm pretty sure that they changed their minds at the end. In the vision Dalinar has, he hears distant screaming; WoB has it that that was from the spren. I know you said it's your head-canon, which is great! It just--it just doesn't work for me The Bond making Desolations worse is a possibility. But it doesn't cause them. Desolations predate Radiancy. (Heralds were created to fight the Desolation, and spren copied the Heralds to create Radiants later.) To somehow get the idea in your head that committing suicide and killing your best friend at the same time would stop the world from ending is--it's insane to me, especially since it's the actual opposite of what Radiants are supposed to believe. Especially since we know that getting rid of Radiants won't get rid of Desolations, because Desolations predate Radiants. Without Heralds, should another Desolation come, Radiants are the only thing that stands as protection for humanity. Also, parshmen predate Radiants, and almost definitely humanity as a whole. Since they seem to have evolved on Roshar (or with it), and much of Roshar's natural animals have a symbiotic bond with various types of spren, it just makes sense to me for parshmen to have that innately as well. So in my mind they would, at a minimum, have access to more than just dullform as long as there are spren around. The Radiants may be a cause (whether direct or indirect) of there being more types of spren, which give them more 'options' as it were, but their natural state would almost definitely be able to include the basics needed for survival--mating, fighting, and food. Dullform don't seem capable of doing these on their own. I liken dullform to a lack; as in they are missing an arm, or some other vital necessity for survival. Or maybe the parshmen body is a type of chrysalis that only quickens when bonded with a spren. But it's still missing something, not complete in and of itself. Again though, just because I disagree shouldn't mean you enjoy your own head-canon any less Especially since I disagree with every fan-theory for Recreance that has been posted since WoR was published (and some more before that, but I wasn't on the boards before then, so.../shrug) Mistborn spoilers. But also contains my personal head-cannon (yes. My head is an actual cannon, and it shoots crazy ideas at 1700 m/s)

Well, I guess a ~5 month necro-post isn't the worst first post I've seen. So, welcome to the forums! I tend to write in very forceful terms, and have an inordinate fondness for breaking things. Please don't let this scare you away The problem I have with your idea is a timeline. Radiants were still around at the end of the Final Desolation (prologue from WoK.) The Recreance happened a significant, but unknown, amount of time later. However, there's nothing to suggest that the parshmen were still a threat/antagonists during this time. Which suggests that they'd lost. Given what we've seen of their culture, they tend to act more honorably than humans in warfare, even if much of what they do is alien/different than how we'd do things (ie, assassinating Galivar was pretty weird and nonsensical based on what we currently know. Even their 'ruling council' of sorts is rather different. And never mind their biology and customs.) So, basically, parshmen would have to have become antagonistic against the Knights Radiant, with both groups being those that act most honorably, well after any Desolation--and hence, during a time period relatively free of Odium's influence. I'd like to point out that the Radiants didn't "give up their Surges willingly." They murdered their closest friends. At least, based on the relationship that we see with our examples (Kaladin and Shallan primarily, with hints towards Lift and Renarin), the Bond between spren and Knight is great. Also remember that "the choice of honor is life." Not murder, not death, but life. The Recreance was a very visceral abandonment of the primary tenet of what Radiants are. I refuse to believe that some paltry conflict or war that would, by definition, be less than a Desolation would cause this. They might choose to fight the war, sure, but murder innocents/best friends? No. No for the Parshendi, and definitely no for the Knights. Syl knew what Kaladin was planning, and was powerless to stop it. She died. It's likely that the spren knew what the Radiants were planning, but they themselves couldn't stop it, and were unable to break their oaths that helped to form the Bond. After all, the oaths of men are fickle things. (I'd swear that's somewhere in-book, but can't find it now. So, alas. Perhaps I made it up? Or it's from somewhere else?)

Cool, cloudy, plenty of rain but sometimes sunshine. Coastal Oregon is perfect, but Seattle area is alright, too. What's your favorite geological feature?

The choice of honor is life. If Honor is the cause of Desolations, I imagine it's the same kind of horrific side effect that happens from time to time, such as when you dam a river for power, and flood hundreds of homes. Only in this case Honor threw Odium in Shard-Jail, and Odium tried to vaporize the world. Your point 4 I have particular problem with. If Odium is empowered by people being hateful, he could have stayed on worlds that did not have competing Shards (anymore) and gained his power that way. He did not. Further, would not Honor be empowered by honorable people? Why would he focus on killing hateful people rather than on building a cadre of the honorable? Yes, yes, he did that, too, but honestly--you'd think he'd have more than 10% of a population that felt like being honorable. Is it sheer numbers that empowers him? Or percentages? Because if it's sheer numbers, the Desolation idea is silly. If it's percentage, then Honor should kill all but one honorable person and win the universe. But none of that matters, because life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination, etc. Looking to examples of how Honor is reflected in world, your theory that Honor willfully causes the Desolations in order to kill people makes zero sense.

Look sir, goats! Obi-Wan Kenobi: [voice comes out of nowhere] Luke. Luke! Luke Skywalker: [weakly] Ben? Obi-Wan: You will go to the Dagobah system. Luke : Dagobah system? Obi-Wan: There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Goat who instructed me.

It's taken me over a decade of having good, caring friends to even begin to understand that they actually like me and it's not just an act to make me react in a way that they want. I still struggle with that at times, because it's the exact opposite of what I grew up with. So i spend a significant amount of time deciding how I should react to them and others when they're just nice because I never learned those lessons growing up. And Shallan had a childhood similar, but worse, than my own. Frustrating or not, she's written incredibly realistically, especially in WoR ☺

I feel that you and I must have read completely different books. You read the one where these things happened, and i didn't, with the exceptions of Kaladin, who you freely admit really was an angry Spearman. And the boots thing, it was supposed to be ridiculous just so that he would focus on that instead of the real lie. Then again, Elend is my least favorite important Cosmere character. The only reason i cared about him at all is because Vin did, and i still don't understand what she saw in him besides liking to read. I get that, but lots of people like to read, and it's not something I'm innately attracted to in and of itself (although someone who doesn't read is a turnoff, so there's that.) So, when bad things happened to Elend I felt bad only because I knew it would hurt Vin. Edit: Explained things in 2nd paragraph a little better utilizing the amazing power of a computer, rather than the convenience of a phone.

Don't suppose you are going to Portland via Seattle?

Easy, Mat Cauthon. Favorite organ in your body?

Alexandre Dumas is just wonderful. Sorry about asking your question before Maxal, i must have somehow missed that it had been asked, even tho i skimmed over the thread before. @Orlion, i had friends from other high schools that played that amongst ourselves after/before all our weekly competitions for years. Joey was famous for his monster slaps. I one time slapped in, got cards out, all before he smashed down on everyone else's hands. Blood was spilled, and i was laughing because no one knew what had happened for several seconds. On that note, favorite card game?

Goat at last! Goat at last! Thank God Almighty, we are Goat at last!

Favorite thing? THAT'S SO VAGUE ARRRGH!! Is fire a thing? If so, fire. I get so distracted by it--which is why I'm not allowed to play with it. I'm not responsible enough. Almost burning down a forest because I zoned out staring at the flame, and only at the very last second realizing that the fire is far out of control performing daring feats of heroism to put it out utilizing the nearby pond prevented a catastrophe. As this was the third time it happened, I realized that I had a problem. There was this one other time, that a warehouse was on super-fire, and they kept showing it on the news. I spent untold hours watching it. Video recorded it, too, so I could watch later (this was pre-2000, when the Internet was a thing, but dial-up prevented videos on the Internet from being a reality.) So, yeah. Fire. My favorite thing. Favorite alcoholic beverage?