Bort

It's a very "black and white" view of the world, and I feel that neither the real world nor Roshar fits into such a model. Everything has shades of grey, where Frustration seems to take only the black and white view. This is why I asked him about Shallan. It's a curious case. She has never apologised for what she did. She has never sought redemption for it. Indeed, as we learn more about her, we discover that there are more people that she hurt with her actions. RoW Spoiler:

Yes! And for much the same reason, if my personal suspicions are correct. Each being has three aspects, physical, cognitive, and spiritual. With Deadeyes, you've got the Blade which is the physical, and the Deadeye, which is the cognitive. The heralds will be much the same, just in reverse. Their "deadeye" shape is in the physical realm. Makes you wonder what their cognitive presence in Shadesmar would be like. But in both cases, they've been split from their spiritual aspect, which is why, when Dalinar opens the perpendicularity, Taln wakes up and is able to think and talk, while Maya is able to stir enough to send thoughts and feelings to Adolin.

Thanks @Pathfinder, but I did understand that. I am arguing that Lin's actions, while evil, may not have entirely been his fault, due to outside influences, and earlier choices which placed him onto this path. Frustration is arguing that it doesn't matter what was influencing him, it's all his fault anyways, regardless, because the actions were his. There have been tangents to this, like the time frame and Dalinar's chance of redemption that Lin didn't get, but this is the essence of the debate. If it's accepted that Dalinar did a load of evil things while under the influence of an Unmade and/or Odium, and he's forgiven by the reader, why is it so important that Lin be condemned for the same thing? Literally the only difference is that Dalinar got his redemption arc, while Lin got murdered. By the same logic, @Frustration, do you also believe that Shallan is evil? She killed her parents after all., then plotted a theft which had the potential to put two countries at war. @CryoZenith -

Well, you were arguing against something that is proven true every single day. Idiocy may be a bit of a strong word to use though, and I do apologise for it.

I don't mean that Odium is controlling the magic, only that the future sight he's giving Renarin isn't necessarily actual future sight, and more because it comes through Odium, it's Odium-wishful-thinking sight, showing a vision of the future that Odium most wants to occur. Not saying it's something that is controlled, or even controllable, just putting it out as a potential idea. This would explain why Renarin saw Dalinar fall so many times, but he never did. On Roshar, seeing the future is of Odium. This is the cultural belief that the people of Roshar have. There has to be some kind of fact backing that up in world. And yes, while Odium has obscene amounts of power compared to the Unmade, why would you assume he'd expend any of it trying to corrupt Dalinar, given that he had the Thrill doing just that for him. For that matter, why would you believe a word Odium tells Dalinar? It could well be true, but it could just as easily be a total fabrication, or somewhere in the middle. I mean, what kind of God would the Father of Hate be if he couldn't lie once in a while? And remember, until the Everstorm, Odium spent just as much time hiding from Cultivation as he did plotting. Using too much of his power would have given her an opening. Yeah, speculation tells us you are likely right about the identity of the Unmade in the Davar household, but we know very little about it. Why was it there? Who was it influencing? (I suspect everyone is the answer to that last one). Was it there doing Odium's bidding, or working on it's own plans? Either way, what were those plans?

What arguments? For there to be arguments, you need to provide details, not simply tell people they are wrong. And it's a little bit of sarcasm to remind you that you could provide fuller answers than the ones you are leaving, not "attacks on your character."

Who said it was Odium? Remember Unmade influence in Jah Keved? All the speculation about which Unmade was influencing the Davar household? And we've seen Unmade with their own agendas, so why do you assume it's Odium? Also, seeing the future is of Odium. Why do you assume you see truth, and not what Odium wants you to see? Remember, Renarin in OB, "The visions can be wrong!!!"

I figured as much, but unfortunately, I don't have easy access to the books here to double check, so I have to rely on Coppermind. But, rather than just tell someone they're wrong, perhaps you could provide the proof. Hang on... That sounds very familiar for some reason...

Everything that happened to Dalinar was still in little bits. He dipped into the Thrill while in battle, then would have months sitting doing nothing. That's not the same as having a permanent oppression going on all around you solidly for years. And his summoning of the pseudo-Blade I think is more an indicator of his powers being unbound by Honor. That's why he can do it despite the Stormfather not wanting him to. Also, I would point out that Odium telling Dalinar something doesn't mean that something similar wasn't going on with Lin and one of the Unmade, does it?

That's not what Coppermind says.

Another sweeping statement with no basis in fact, or do you have something to actually back up what you're saying here? Or is this just your opinion? Personally, I think it's entirely possible because it seems from Shallan's flashbacks that the Davar household was under the influence of an Unmade for several years, where Dalinar specifically only felt the Thrill during combat. You see that? I explained why I thought the way I did. You should try it sometime. So, why do you think what you think? What reasons from the Stormlight Archives do you have to think the way you do? And if Lin was under the influence of an Unmade, why do you assume he had all his free will, or was capable of understanding what he was doing? Indeed, his behaviour seems to suggest he didn't entirely know what he was doing, or he would have realised that his actions were what was causing his family to turn against him, but he never did figure that out, just kept getting worse. To me, that suggests sickness, not evil.

There is something that still doesn't add up for me, about the time she killed her mother. I realise that the details have been covered in Shallan's flashback chapters, but something about it feels off. Approximate timeline of events: 1. A friend of Shallan's mother pulls a knife and tries to kill Shallan. Shallan's father injures him, but is pinned down. 2. Shallan's mother grabs the knife and tries to kill Shallan. Shallan kills her with Testament. 3. Shallan then kills her mother's friend... With Testament? We would assume so, but I don't recall there ever being a description of his burned out eyes, and it's only ever Shallan's mother described as being turned face down so Shallan didn't have to see the eyes. I'm not sure what it is about all of this, but I feel we're still missing something vital from this scene.

Anyone could argue that Dalinar is also evil, given the atrocities that he committed, so why aren't you out there condemning everything he does, @Frustration? What's the difference between Lin and Dalinar, other than Dalinar lived long enough to get a redemption arc? Edit: And if you so freely admit Lin was being corrupted by one of the Unmade, how can you so easily condemn him as evil? Why do you doubt Lin could be corrupted as much as Dalinar? Come on, let's see some actual explanations instead of your usual single sentence lines making broad sweeping statements.

I know it's a slight tangent, but no 5th Ideal Skybreaker would be an assassin. Their 5th Ideal is the Judge Dredd one... "I AM The Law!" Then it's not assassination, it's judgement.

Given the hundreds of possible examples... PROVING THE EXACT POINT I WAS MAKING. Pick ANY OF THEM. They ALL commit atrocities, ALL thinking they have some perfect reason for it, but in reality, they are ALL just murderers, as far as your logic goes, at least. Seems you disagree with every single writer in Hollywood. I'm not surprised you don't enjoy movies like that, as you would obviously dismiss the first 20-30 minutes of the movie, explaining why the crazy person is on a rampage. And do you seriously need a Cosmere specific example of how one person can influence another? Do you not have friends? Family? Do they not influence you? Do you not influence them? How could this possibly come to pass? Have YOU never made a choice that has backfired onto you and shown a number of unintended consequences? What about a choice that you KNOW will have negative consequences, but your only other option is to see someone you love suffer? How dark a place would it send you to knowing that you are suffering due to the actions of another, but also knowing you cannot do anything about it, because of how important that person is to you? So, by your logic, ANYTHING you do is your fault, and no-one else's. What if, say, you're driving down the road, but have to swerve because some idiot pulls out in front of you, and you accidentally hit some poor passerby on the street? By your logic, you chose to turn that way, therefore it's your fault the passerby is hit. To make that argument is idiocy, because you are saying that no-one can change the way you act or the decisions you make. That's very simply not true. Life proves this time and time again every single day. Edit: Actually, you never did answer me earlier... Is the act of protecting your child from something horrific the act of an evil person?

Given how I was using them as a parallel to the point I was making, yes, they are at least relevant to the conversation. And you're still avoiding the question. He made those choices... LATER. AFTER he became a different person. What's so difficult to understand here? And once again, you miss the point. She didn't force him to do anything. She changed him from the type of person who would be willing to be known as a murderer in public just to protect his daughter, into someone who could have his son killed, and murder his wife. They were HIS CHOICES, but he wouldn't have made them the way he did if it was not for Shallan and her influence on him. Or do you seriously think that someone who would go so far out of their way to protect their daughter as to become thought of as a murderer would really just kill his own family members for no good reason? Lin's choices were his, but as I originally pointed out, he was well and truly broken. Should there be consequences for him for what he did? Yes. Should he carry all of the blame for what he did? No. Given how you seem to so utterly disagree with me on this, maybe you could go into more detail about what you think, rather than just claim I'm wrong. If Lin was solely to blame for his actions, whi would he try to protect Shallan, but try to kill his son, and actually kill his second wife?

What you care or don't care about has nothing at all to do with the point I made. So, why do you view Lin Davar as being so different from the heroes in those movies that butcher loads of people? And you seem to forget that Lin's choice was made right then and there, in the room, with the dead mother and "lover." Before Shallan broke her bond to Testament. Also, I'd point out that she Transformed Lin, like the Surges say she can, so she did not force him to do anything. Finally, the point I'd make about Testament is that we've ONLY seen Shallan's PoV for those parts of her life, and she's an unreliable witness because she literally has parts of herself locked away from her own mind.

The point I'm making isn't about removing their choices, it's about changing someone so the choices they make are not the ones they normally would. Lin Davar was a man who would rather be thought of as a murderer, rather than let someone he loves, who committed the crime in question, suffer for it. Where's the evil here? His choice in this matter is about as far from evil as he can get. This is the choice that Shallan inspired, starting Lin down the road to becoming the murderer in truth. How many movies are there about someone's family being killed, so the main protagonist goes a bit beserk and murders a bunch of people? How many of those movies depict the protagonist as evil? Why is Lin Davar so different to them? He does some terrible things, all born out of a place of love, just like those "heroes" in the movies.

It's not passive mind control. It's the Surge of Transformation. You know, one of the fundamental forces powering Roshar? I mean, you literally see it in action in Words of Radiance when she transforms a bunch of bandits and deserters into something more. Why do you have such a hard time believing this ability could go the other way too?

When looking at the question provided for the poll, there is only one real answer - Yes. Jasnah did the right thing in taking out the men that were mugging her. Why? Because the question ONLY looks at the immediacy of the action, and doesn't touch upon Jasnah's motivations at all, and as has been mentioned several times already, Jasnah had every right to defend herself. This answer would be the same no matter who it was walking down that alley. Therefore, when taking into account the wording of the question, the only possible answer could be 'Yes'. The question becomes fuzzier when Jasnah's motivations and alternative options are taken into account. Then it's not simply a question of, "Is this the right action to take?" but rather becomes an investigation of Jasnah's capabilities, motives, and options. Most of which would say that Jasnah's actions were 'wrong' because of her abilities giving her other options besides simply killing them, plus her comment about wanting those men dead.

My favourite character is probably Burrich. If you like the Farseer series, you'll really want to branch out into Hobb's other Realm of the Elderlings novels, being the Farseer trilogy, the Liveship Traders trilogy, the Tawny Man trilogy, the Rain Wild Chronicles (4 books, not 3), and finally, the Fitz and the Fool trilogy. 16 books, split into 5 stories, but all interconnected and developing the same world. If you like the Farseer trilogy, I do recommend that you push on to the very end of the series. They don't have to be read in order, but for the story to make the most sense, you really should. A comment earlier was about the second Fitz trilogy to be better than the first. Yes, it is. And the third is even better than those. I my mind at least.

Would you still feel this way when you realised whose fault it is that Lin Davar turned "evil"? As Pattern points out in WoR, Shallan doesn't need to use Soulcasting to enact change in people, she just needs to be "truth and lies," or in other words, herself. What happened to Shallan's mother and her "lover," was horrific, but it changed Lin for the worse because he chose to protect Shallan. Tell us, Frustration, is the act of protecting a child from something horrific the action of an evil person? Then Lin realises what an untenable position he's in, everyone believes he's both a cuckold and a murderer. No-one supports him in anything he does, and he ends up involved with the Ghostbloods. Even to the point where his family have turned against him, and the only one of them that offers him even token support is the one person he should be blaming for all the troubles. And so, he changes. He becomes moodier, angrier, more prone to violent outbursts, until, as Shallan does so well, the lie becomes truth.

Except for those occasions when he surprises both Syl and the Stormfather by doing stuff he shouldn't be able to do. For example, in Oathbringer, just as he's about to flee the Singers and he stops to rescue people from a highstorm, he does something that transforms the windspren around him into a shield for the innocents he's protecting. My theory is because this time around, Honor is gone, so his spren have picked up a bit more of his power than they had before.

Not a meme, but a joke... Sadeas was worried about the state of Alethkar. So many problems, and all of them could be placed at the feet of Dalinar. He knew how to fix it. He would lead Dalinar out into the field and betray him, leaving him for dead. He would save Alethkar. He would perform the Kholin-oscopy.

That is too simplistic a view of the situation. At first glance, Lin appears to be evil, for the reasons you've just mentioned. The bit you seem to be willfully ignoring is, becoming that person isn't entirely his fault. He witnesses his daughter kill his wife, with a Shardblade she shouldn't be able to possess, as well as the murder of his wife's lover (so far as the public knows - and we don't even know who killed him). Then because of that his life turns to hell, his reputation ruined, to the point where people are openly taking advantage of him without even bothering to hide the fact. Hence the drinking, hence the being loud and obnoxious, trying to hide from the ruins of his life, trying to pretend that all is ok. But no matter how hard he pretends, nothing is ok again, and there is nothing he can do to fix it, and so the downward spiral begins. The bitter broken man reaches the point where the abuse of his family isn't seen as abuse (by him), but rather frustration because he cannot escape the pit he's in, and yes, it led to him killing his second wife. Broken beyond repair, and being abandoned by the one person he thought he could rely upon, he snapped. A big part of the Stormlight Archives seems to be about people that are broken. We're certainly going to see some of those broken people do well for themselves. Mostly these people will become Radiants. But we're going to be seeing those that go in the opposite direction. People that break and instead of getting better, they get worse. Lin is one of these people. He deserves our pity, not our contempt.