Kurkistan

It's fairly easy: Just enclose the text in <spoiler>HIDDEN STUFF!!!</spoiler>, with square brackets ('[' and ']') instead of arrows. EDIT: Yes, I am a ninja.

Would a Full Lashing keep objects together in a vacuum? If not, why not?

Sounds like a challenge! Shardlet, don your disguise!!! EDIT: CURSES! The QUOTA!! P.S. Also, I think the quota should actually be a lot lower. Like maybe 3 or so? Something very fishy/raging is almost certainly going on otherwise.

Well we do know that she "found" his body in the cave, so it didn't shadify: It was my impression that the body turned into a shade, not that that a shade "rose" from it. I could be wrong, though. Also, "shade" is not capitalized in the book, so I think we oughtn't to capitalize it here (says one of the Worst Offenders for OverCapitalization).

I was mostly concerned with getting SSFH (I hereby declare this the new acronym, since "SoS" is taken up by Shadows of Self) discussion out of "Cosmere Theories", but fair enough.

Well this isn't frightening at all...

Just finished it. I need to mull it over before I come to any grand theoretical or even story-impression conclusions. Quality-wise... Hm... It was certainly well written and interesting, but I can't say that it grabbed me. At this moment, I'd probably rank it at a smidge above the level of Legion (which I think is one of Brandon's weaker works). That might change over time, though...

Thanks Chaos. Could we possibly get this topic moved over there?

Specifically, "There is one who just wants to hide and survive."

@marianmi Perhaps. My reading is that the simplest way to model all of this is that people's "intentions" are usually just "affect object/person X" and then things get cached out by the Realms. My theory is that this defaults to including clothing, with the possibility that clothing must be included in some circumstances. I find this the natural reading, as Szeth doesn't have any particular reason to be sure that the clothing of the soldiers he Lashes is also affected: in fact, he might well wish not to affect the clothing, if he had a choice, since affecting more stuff doubtlessly takes more stormlight. As for Lift, my impression from the text was that she Slicked herself, not her surroundings. @Darnam Eh. Beads. I'll leave that alone for now, as I think Cognitive aspects are a bit fuzzier than all of that. *Buys and reads story*

@Iredomi Thanks for the rec. @Knight I think that's about right so far as Realmatics building in "fudge" goes. Though I think that Brandon's inspiration from Plato was a tad less direct than you imply, and moreover that "Forms" are more so seated in the Spiritual than the Cognitive: Source: I hadn't considered simply running out of stormlight being the answer for the smoke-thugs. Good thought. I don't think she'd have any reason to intentionally include weapons/clothes for the first two, though: dead is dead. @Paperclip Thanks for the info. As to teleportation: Well you're the most recent reader, but didn't they only use transportation aons after Elantris was restored? @Windy Just got the eBook, so I'll wait a bit before clicking on the spoiler.

He was a REDACTED, that one. You can still find the posts in question with Zuchinni as a "guest poster", if anyone cares to look.

Ah Zuchinni. What... pleasant memories. @Shardlet At this rate, you'll probably hit 1024 first. Or you could try to find a cached version of the Cosmere Q&A and look at Brandon's rep title in the past...

Vile defamation! As you can see from my obviously-not-edited post, you obviously put letters in my mouth and changed the spelling yourself!

It's Catquisitor!!

Don't you be cheeky now! You just earned a downvote for your rudeness!

You know what? I don't like this guy. Down vote him!!!!

Well Brandon's Adonalsium at 1,873, so we know that much.

@Windy Thanks for the info, I have a decision to make... I think everyone's perception almost certainly matters to some extent. The Cognitive incorporates both self-perception and that of others, after all. I think that a nudist-in-hiding on Roshar would probably still get his clothing Lashed to the ceiling too, for instance. I'd put the weight of consideration on mass perception/the wearer, though. I don't think that Jasnah's perception, at least, is the primary governing factor for her circumstance. She combat-cast 4 people in a row, yet two of them went with their clothing and two didn't, while I doubt her perceptions of them were significantly different. So far as contact goes, here are some quotes on the two who got the full monty. The question remains whether simply touching the clothing is what makes it so that the clothing is also transformed, along with whether touching someone's clothing is enough to allow the magic to happen—I think it would be, btw. I don't recall Szeth being careful to touch people's bare skin to Lash them, after all. The implication for the first man is that he was bare-chested, though we're not sure his clothing went because it's not mentioned and it could have potentially went up in the fire. His knife isn't mentioned at all though, so I think the implication is everything is turned into fire. The second is also unclear. He might have been wearing a sleeveless shirt, so skin-to-skin, or could have been wearing sleeves and maybe that's why his clothing was also transformed. The "touch point" for the lightning that turned the two into smoke is not mentioned at all. --- Myself, I think it likely that the two different kinds of soulcasting (touch vs. range) were all that determined if the clothing was affected, and that a Soulcaster would be able to touch-affect someone just by touching them through their clothing.

@Windy Thanks, and thanks for the quote. As to how far this goes: Excellent question. It may depend on the person or the situation, I think. Are your socks more a part of you than your shoes? Your gloves or your shirt? Your rings or other jewlery? It may end up being personal/cultural, though I think a fair metric might be "whatever you'd reasonably expect to someone to carry over into Shadesmar". Oh, that reminds me: Raoden teleports in Elantris and doesn't show up in Teod naked. On DW: () -Is it worth buying, or should I hold off for a library book? I'm all tunnel-visioned and such, so don't know if I should get it for the other authors' stories. @hoser Grist away. My thoughts: Elantris: If I recall correctly, Raoden specifically couldn't draw effective Aons on himself, rather than not being able to "affect" himself. So it might be a limitation of AonDor. Or Elantrians are super-special. Myself, I think that it's likely that clothes are just less (read: not at all) Invested or part of people than their skin is. Recall that clothing doesn't interfere with Allomantic steel/Allomantic iron. It's tangential stuff, probably (actually, almost certainly since Miles isn't bald by now from face-splosions) more so than even hair or nails. It may be that a lot of magics just disregard the "personhood" of clothing, and that only relatively subtle ones aimed specifically at "object" and "people" care to notice. Warbreaker: Same, I would say. I would also draw on our ongoing discussion of fundamental vs. surface effects. It's also my impression that Awakening just stops right at the skin, without any "aura" of invulnerability: Tonk Fah's cloak and people's clothing is drained of color and/or awakened, after all. @Sats *Pulls out eBook* The one Jasnah turned to fire had a knife which wasn't mentioned dropping or anything, but no details on the others. Another interesting fact on that section: I made a mistake. The fire-man and the crystal-man both seemed to turn completely (clothes and all, with clothes mentioned specifically for the crystal-man), but the two Jasnah distance-soulcast into smoke didn't include their clothing, it it specifically mentioned as "their empty clothing dropping to the ground." The difference between the two cases, besides the Essence involved, seems to simply be one of whether Jasnah was touching the man when she did it. That suggest something fundamentally different going on with the two kinds of soulcasting, beyond the one being done at range. @Darnam Yeah, it's a bit un-visual. Fairly clear, though, I think, especially in light of Lift's certainty that she can Slick away if anyone tries to grab her—which suggests that simply grabbing at here sleeve wouldn't do the trick. @Bart Actually, I think that the Emperor's favorite color is a bit more fundamental than his clothing, but that's a discussion for another day. @All Stop replying so quickly!!!

I suppose the rub is that I see the two as different only in degree, not in kind. Regardless, we can talk of interference from now on. You'll forgive me, but I did not mean to imply that "touching" was very important for our analysis. I mentioned how the Full Lashing works, mechanistically, but did not mean to imply any deeper Realmatic conclusion from it. My apologies. So my main concern is with how "fundamental" and/or significant (and/or unwelcome?) a magical effect is, rather than its specific mechanism of delivery. So far as surprise attacks: It depends. I think that, if Szeth Basic-Lashed a stormlight-infused Kaladin to the ceiling, he would start thinking the floor was up, at least until he did his own Basic Lashing to counter it. That's because a Basic Lashing only changes one relatively tangential "part" of a person (their gravitational bond to Roshar) rather than, say, who they are as a person. Which is the fundamental alteration that Soulcasting tries, and so would be a reason why it might fail to affect an infused Kaladin. I apologize for any confusion I caused. Fair enough.

While the Company by no means accepts the Plaintiff's assertions as to her legal basis for "graciousness", it is nonetheless interested in further discussions regarding the facilitation of exciting future investment opportunities for other members of the forum.

So, in the philosophy of identity, there's a bit of a discussion as the extent to which "things" are part of us. How much is your homeland or house or favorite book a part of who "you" are? To what extent can you claim them as an extension of your self, a part of your identity as a person? Now, as I've said before, philosophy actually matters in the cosmere! There's actually an interesting discussion to be had as to whether objects gain some "sympathy" with their owners (oh, that is interesting...), but that's not what I'm looking at today. No, instead, I will look at clothes!!! You see, it turns out that (I think) your clothing is a proper part of your identity in the cosmere, at least to some extent. At least some magics operate on a level at which affecting "you" means also affecting your clothing. Examples: 1. Jasnah's combat-soulcasting. When she soulcasts the thugs, she wipes them out completely, clothes and all. She doesn't turn a man into a statue with clothes on it, but everything from hair to boots into crystal. This implies a deeper level of connection between clothes and identity because we already have fair reason to believe that soulcasting works on the level of "objects" by default: A goblet, an entire stone, etc. Shallan's blood when she was poisoned is an oddity here, but we might be able to explain that away as either Blood being an essence or Jasnah making a special effort there. 2. Lift's "Slick". This one is the one that caught my attention, actually. Lift, it seems, includes her clothing in the effect whenever she goes "Slick". I scoured the interlude to make sure that it wasn't just her bare skin, but at one point she slides full-body across the floor, so that suggests (unless she was secretly nude the whole scene) that her clothing is included. And she's not exactly a master of skill and subtlety, so I doubt that she included her clothes "on purpose" by some extra effort. In fact, I'd wager (just because) that Edgedancers can only actually "Slick" themselves, not necessarily their surroundings, which would lock in clothing as part of the self. --- This isn't 100% at the moment. For all I know, Lift makes a special effort to include her clothing and/or soulcasting is entirely based on the soulcaster's perceptions of what an "object" is. I'm inclined to believe, though, that instead people's Cognitive aspects possess a (very very weak) perception of their clothes as a part of them, and that at least some magic systems are sensitive to this perception. This might mean that clothing is included in Basic Lashings, for instance. Thoughts?

*Ahem* "KURKISTAN, Ltd. reserves the right to interpret oaths however it may please. As such, a statement on the FeatherWriter's (hereby referred to as "the Plaintiff") part as to the terms of the 'bet' is of no import. To restate for the record, this company holds that all offerings or discussions of oaths or other intended courses of actions based upon future evidence are, in fact, oaths which are taken on freely and with no expectation of repayment should the terms of the prediction be fulfilled. Had the Plaintiff's prediction been untrue, then, the Plaintiff would owe THE UNIVERSE one (1) arm, to be collected by REDACTED. In the present case, though, all expectations related to this oath are deemed to have been properly fulfilled, and so the Plaintiff retains her arm."

@hoser You are right, you did say "interfere". It makes little difference to the analysis, though, I think. My main goal here is mainly to challenge a base assumption of interference, so I suppose I got that part right. As to Jasnah insta-killing: That might well fall under the "internal change" category, since it's not just messing with a "spiritual gravitational bond", but with a person's fundamental identity. Also, we're all Ookla just now, so that isn't the best name to pick me out by. @Darnam A fair point on the nature of Plate.