Kurkistan

Besides just the actual transcribing, what do you need help with?

The Emperor's Soul. I'm defining the new naming convention before anyone can stop me. It's working so far.

If anyone wants to contest Denth's liniage, feel free to post a thread and send me an invite. Otherwise, I'll abide by Windrunner's wishes and not continue that line of discussion on his thread.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. We also have Shai not showing any compunction about leaving her stamps front-and-center for all the Forgeries in her room, which one would think would be a bit counterproductive if that would cause them to fail. I did read more of a magical "Fail" then a simple non-magical "fail" there, although I can't think of any justification at this moment. Anyone have thoughts on how to save that section of the OP from Ruin?

Perhaps. It certainly isn't impossible. Whether Odium is wastefully petty really is the question, isn't it? We know that Ruin was capable of at least moderately non-Ruinous actions in favor of his greater goal (think The Joker: an agent of chaos, but not its embodiment), and we also know that Odium's ultimate goal is to Splinter all of the other Shards and be the most powerful being in the Cosmere--at which point he will probably start being as petty as all get out, with no chance of anyone ever being able to stop him. Whether and to what extent Odium's nature will allow him to divert some power (and thus a small part of his chance at winning the broader war) into ruining the lives of a few puny mortals for fun along the way is still unknown, though.

Do you mean Skaze? Because, while it could be Odium, I think that we can chalk up "evil Seons" to the Shard called "Dominion" easily enough. It would also cost Odium some of his power if he were to Splinter himself at all, and all for the rather dubious benefit of stopping the puny monkey-men of one planet, without even a proper Shard, from traveling; and maybe messing with their politics a bit. EDIT: Though I guess he could just be that mean that he would do that, he would probably hold off on wasteful pettiness until he Splinters all of the other Shards that are the real threat to him.

I've suggested that splinters of Dominion chill about in Shadesmar trying to eat people, for what it's worth. That suggestion came from the fact that WoK apparently hinted at why it's dangerous to travel through Shadesmar near Sel.

*Small TES Spoilers* At 7:30 in the TES Writing Excuses episode, Brandon identifies at least part of the foundation of Realmatics: "we're delving into the Cosmere stuff, my underlying theory of existence in my novels, which is based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'". We can see at least some of this happening in TES with how Forging works, but particularly with what happens when you Forge simple objects, like Shai's stained glass window. In her discussion with Gaotona: Spren, then, seem to represent these self-same forms (the Forms of Fire, Wind, Pain, Fear, Gravity, Ale...). The question, then, is whether spren are Cognitive beings (as most people have assumed, I think) that access Spiritual Forms or if they are mostly just Spiritual beings. If spren are Spiritual in nature, then it would lend credence to Windrunner's idea of Spiritual/Physical overlap giving rise to the Cognitive Realm, especially when paired with Syl's inability to think in the Physical Realm without her bond with Kaladin. Some Cognitive overlap obviously occurs, though, such as how Flamespren are seen (when measured) affecting their nature in perfect alignment with how the Cognitive realm--"how an object is viewed and how it views itself" (pg 53)--works. Spren are imperfect tokens of the Forms, then, not the Forms themselves, so I think that they are Cognitive beings that have a strong access to and dependency on Spiritual Forms, but are not just Spiritual representation of the Forms themselves. Mildly less concrete: This also explains why Spren can be so region-specific (such as Ale-spren and Cusicesh), since local belief in specific Forms is necessary for their to be any local Spiritual Form for spren to latch onto. This means that, if Shai went to some world/region that simply didn't have the concept of glass windows, she wouldn't be able to Forge one, no matter how plausible she made it, since no Windown form would exist for her to access. Somewhat less concrete: This is also implied by the fact that "the more people who know of a Forgery, the more likely it is to fail." (pg 42 ?), implying that Forgeries rely on the constant maintenance of their foundational Forms (i.e., and "Emperor as the Emperor" Form rather than a "Emperor as a simulcrum" Form as the basis for Shai's Forgery). This also implies that, if the very concept of a Window were to be instantaneously excised from Sel--or even just the Rose Empire, potentially--then Shai's Forgery of the stained glass window would fail at that very moment. EDIT: And it further follows that these Forms do not, in fact, take on any real independent existence of their own, but instead are at all times determined by the aggregate of Cognized concepts which make up their form. Like a Russellian conception of "Red" within an individual's mind being, in truth, the aggregate of all those things which a person considers to be red, or otherwise the average of them, such as how people think of a "perfect rectangle" whenever you say the word "rectangle." Although, on second thought, I suppose that the Forms could come to be as an aggregate concepts, but then "split off" into their own independent existence. That would mean that "Fear" would exist whether or not there existed entities to experience fear, which then gets us into philosophical discussions (in the Cosmere, where all philosophy matters!) of whether a number can be prime in and of itself and what have you. It could also be slightly less strict, with Forms having their own inertia once created, but still being dependent on and affected by changes in mass opinion. So everyone could stop believing that Drunkenness ought to have a Form in the town that Axies (I forget its name) visited, but it might take awhile for the spren to go away. So there's that, with many more fun and interesting things to come from TES, especially after the latest Orem signing is up and we have more questions answered . EDIT (6/8/13): I thought it was time to add some new evidence that pretty much locks some version of this theory in. Various passages, because evidence is fun Two different types of "spren", one is essentially a Cognitive aspect, the other is based on "cognitive ideals or concepts, which have taken on literal personification over time" "Spren are created by the perceptions of men" Also, I've posted two other theories about Forms since this one. One on their general structure and specifically how they relate to Forgery (immediately derailed, impossibly dense) and one that's more streamlined. UPDATE: Theory confirmed.

I was going to start a new thread on this, but I don't want to steal your thunder, Nepene, so I'll just throw it in here and let you play with it. At 7:30 in the TES Writing Excuses episode, Brandon identifies at least part of the foundation of Realmatics: "we're delving into the Cosmere stuff, my underlying theory of existence in my novels, which is based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'" So you might want to re-focus a bit to talk more about how Platonism treats the Forms (the Form of the Window in TES, for example) and perhaps discuss how the Congitive and Spiritual Realms interact on this level, since, on the one hand, it seems that Cognitive aspects control how successful a Forgery is, while on the other hand we have Gaotona's soul being capable of evaluating the compatibility of soulstamps meant for the Emperor. EDIT: We also have Shai saying that the "Window" Form exists in the Spiritual Realm, not the Cognitive, so I suppose the Cognitive simply accesses Spiritual Forms, then. I've been holding off posting anything on TES in this section until the Orem signing Q&A is up, but I'll admit to being a bit antsy .

Hoid has his own origin story as a human person, if I recall correctly, and was present at the Shattering. He also knew at least some of the original Shardholders (Rayse, Ati, and Leras) personally (assuming he wrote The Letter), so I doubt that that knowledge came from a quick ascend-descend cycle ala Daniel Jackson. I suppose he could have lived as a human, taken up Adonalsium (though where it would come from and why he would have an opportunity to take hold of it would be a good question), and then failed and Shattered, surviving the process--as well as learning the personalities of several of the next-gen Shardholders at some point along the way. I do doubt that option, though. Welcome to the madness, by the way.

@Windrunner Sorry Windrunner . I guess our instincts kicked in. That's a good point there, Nepene. I suppose that Returned probably access the "Returned" Form much like windows accessing a "Window" Form, to play into Brandon's conception of Realmatics as a mixture of oriental "everything has a soul" and Platonism (Writing Excuses on TES, 7:30). -I'll probably start a thread on this a bit later.

So you're suggesting that Denth's form is just more plastic than normal Returned because he's been changing so often? Perhaps, but this would suggest that he has less control over his hair (or even body) in the normal course of his life as well, which might have come up when he was getting emotional in any of his scenes (and didn't). Also, I'm fairly sure that, Realmatically, your Cognitive aspect (which determines the form of Returns) really ought to become more inherently fluid when you change it often. Shai doesn't mention how an oft-forged table is easier to forge or anything of the like, and doesn't express any fear that testing stamps on herself or Gaotona opens them up for further manipulation in the long term. Good point about the hair being intrinsically more malleable (it is the most tangential part of anyone's body, after all). I can buy that. You have two options here: either Returneds' hair never changes against their will (either conscious or unconsciously) since they have a better version of the Royal Locks, or it is possible for their hair to change in cases of physical or emotional extremity. Since Denth's changes when he dies, then there must be some threshold (it may be death and death alone, but some threshold) where Returned should lose control of their hair as a result of extremities. But, why should this function like the breaking of a dam? If Returned normally have complete unconscious control of their hair without even knowing that they're doing it, why should death cause them to suddenly be expressing a range of emotions with their hair, rather than just the one extreme emotion (oh no I'm dying) being the only one expressed? Such perfect public ignorance relies on constant perfect control by essentially everyone, assuming that death is not the only extremity which can cause hair-changing. Further down, I noted that Hopefinder (the young returned) would have been an excellent time to note a Returned's inability to control his hair. As it turns out, he was Returned at age 2 (pg 310), which would have provided ample time (a year during which Hopefinder matured fully) for anyone to notice a varying hair colors based on strong childhood emotion. People use makeup and hairstyling to change their appearance all the time for different events and outfits, with "perfection" defined by the circumstance. Siri changes her hair to match a dress. I image that some of the more vain female Returned (*cough* Blushweaver *cough*) would be quite eager to alter their hair or even faces and bodies based on how they felt that day and what they were wearing. As it turns out, it's possible that expressing your emotions to others is not an unmitigated evil. Situations could easily arise where a Returned would want to show the depth of their emotions, or maybe fake them, what with their perfect control of this unmentioned ability. As I mentioned above, we see Siri change her hair color for fashion, which I think Blushweaver would be all in for, as opposed to Blushweaver's "superior" control not allowing her to change her hairs length or color at will. Perhaps they could grow used to controlling their hair through such extremities (though still lacking the control to stop themselvs from falling into quivering balls in the middle of a swordfight so that they can be killed like fish in a barrel), but I'm not sure what they're motivation would be, since the majority of the time when they were on "Breath highs" was while they were tooling about as acknowledge Returned and wouldn't have to hide their changeable nature. They wouldn't have gotten much practice in any case (especially while in hiding), though, since getting a large amount of Breaths isn't exactly a daily occurrence. "Different" might be the word you're looking for here. It could be "superior," but Vasher's body-changing behaves in such a fundamentally different way for such different reasons with such different effects that you can't just say it's Royal Locks 2.0. Recall that the Royals can change their hair color and length with conscious effort, as well as having unconscious changes. They do not, however, need to do "mental gymnastics" for the change to occur, "the ability was more instinctive than conscious—like flexing a muscle" (pg 385). This as compared to Vasher needing to fundamentally alter how he saw himself as a person in order to accomplish anything like that effect. I would say that Vasher loses out in this case, especially if his "superior" ability (the Royal Body?) should allow him to change his hair or even entire body "like flexing a muscle," which could have proved useful in the story. I suspect that Vahser, and indeed all Returned, actually have a fairly limited range of "body options" available to them. Vasher just looks like a Returned version of himself when he changes, not a completely different person, and I think that Lightsong still looks the same. This is supported by Denth and Vasher not disguising themselves to the point where they can recognize each other on sight, despite Vasher, at least, having a very good reason not be be recognized. This also goes against Djerf's "plasticity" argument, since that would mean that Denth did not, in fact, change his appearance on a regular basis, since it wouldn't matter and he might only be able to switch between "Returned" and "not-Returned" versions of himself. That means you still have to explain Blushweaver. First of all, attributes don't need to be beneficial (Attribute: A quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something). Second, the Royal Locks also allow relatively easy conscious control of hair. In the very scene that I referenced (though it was Bluefingers that time, not Treledees), Siri had her hair chopped off and then grew it out in order to avoid the need to have it combed. We also see Siri changing her hair color for the sake of fashion in another scene. Third, why exactly would the Royal Locks be uniquely tied to emotions--while Returneds' hair is not--if the Royal Locks were only a weak manifestation of Returneds' abilities? That seems like a lot of extra (if sometimes harmful) functionality for only a watered-down manifestation. You're dancing around what "control" means here. Unless you're going to adopt Djerf's idea of increased bodily plasticity, you still haven't explained why Denth's hair changes (based on his emotions as he dies, once again) while Blushweaver's doesn't. Even if you jump on Djerf's wagon, you still have to explain why Denth's death functions like breaking a dam, as I said a higher up in this post: you don't lose control of your bladder or kick continuously just because your kick-reflex got triggered once, and all of your emotions shouldn't bleed through if the only reason you "lost control" is unadulterated a result of the emotion evinced by dying. P.S. Though I suppose all emotions may be magnified as you die, which would mean, for you, that it's not the actual dying that does the trick, but instead just incredibly strong emotions (which I still think we'd have seen from Vasher a time or two). This all contingent on Djerf's idea working out. Side note: more evidence of hair-changery being surprising: (pg 74) What an excellent opportunity to mention the ability of Returned to change their hair! If Returned are so very perfect with such a better manifestation of everything ever, chopping off and regrowing their flowing locks (which Siri saves considerable time by doing in this scene) instead of dealing with snarls and whatnot would probably be a common thing for them.

Update: This is definitely how it works. Writing Excuses on TES, 11:05: "In a lot of my magic systems dealing with the Cosmere, I work into healing as healing back to the form of yourself; that you know yourself as, as the world knows you as." P.S. Listening to the whole thing, its amusing to see the authors dip their toes into Realmatics. EDIT: He then goes on to talk about how this means that Healing won't deal with chronic problems, like Shai's bad eyes, and implies that Shaizan's stamp incorporates an eye-fixing stamp, I think. Brandon also uses the example of someone with a bad heart, where they would need to stamp themselves daily to keep their heart healthy, but would never be able to simply Forge themselves into not needing a stamp. EDIT 3: To be clear, since I seem to be linking to this thing like a madman lately, this is essentially 100% confirmation of healing as based on a person's Cognitive aspect, based on Shai's description of the Realms. The Cognitive is "how an object is viewed and how it views itself." EDIT 2 (much much later. 10/9/2013) Found a transcript of the whole thing, just copying the relevant portion in. I do it here because I tend to link to this post for "proof", as I don't think it's in the interview database yet.

Yes, that's why I called it an "attribute," not an ability, since it is not an unmitigated benefit for those who possess it. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, though. The ability of Returned to alter their appearance (either consciously or unconsciously) is not well-known in Warbreaker--at least not by the Returned themselves--to the point where Lightsong ponders at why Returned of different eras look differently based on contemporary conceptions of perfection (pg 320) (oh, Cognitive Realm! Shiny! That merits some additional threadery). EDIT: Lightsong goes on to wonder at why the Returned change their appearances: "But there have been gods who were fat, he thought, remembering some of the pictures he had seen of Returned who had come before him. There was a time in our culture’s history when that was seen as the ideal. . . . Did Returned looks have something to do with the way society saw them? Perhaps their opinion of ideal beauty? That would certainly explain Blushweaver." One would think that witnessing Returneds' hair change color/length either at will or accidentally would make this a bit less of a "perhaps" thought process for Lightsong. --- Because of this complete and utter lack of knowledge about the ability of Returned to alter their appearance drastically at any given time, I very very seriously doubt that any normal Returned suffers from emotional hair-changing. Recall, also, that Siri had to consciously focus fairly hard to stop Treledees from reading her emotions based on "very minute changes of color," (pg 412) that Lightsong "could tell an ideal red from one that had been mixed with even one drop of white paint" (pg 49). In the back-stabbing court of Returned politics, it would be quite useful for Returned to read each others' emotions, even if only very occasionally and in emotionally volatile moments. And yet we do not see a single mention of "making sure his hair didn't go red with anger," or "Lightsong watched closely to see if he'd shocked Blushweaver into losing control of her hair," or "Blushweaver, her perfect calm destroyed by her capture, had lost control of her hair, which was a stark white." The Returned who came back as a child (forget the name), never gets any mention of how he'd "quickly gained control of his hair as he rapidly matured" or anything of the sort. Really, I'd just be flabbergasted if the Returned have an attribute like the Royal Locks without even the smallest hint about their hair changing based on emotion being given in the entire book either before or after Denth's death. Not any real experience, since they only ever get one at a time, which is far, far below the "ecstasy" threshold. Vasher changes his entire body due to conscious mental gymnastics, with his hair being the very least of these changes and having nothing to do with his emotions, unless he was feeling particularly mirthful at that moment. I never said that Returned can't change their hair color, just that it is quite a different phenomenon from why/how the Royal Locks operate. Blushweaver and Denth both die by a surprise slicing of their throats (pg 532, 569), with Blushweaver specifically having time to have a "look of panicked terror in her eyes" (still no mention of hair color changing, where this would have been quite appropriate). In fact, line-count-wise, Blushweaver took a bit longer to die than Denth did, while both had discrete stages of "shock, terror, death/BioChroma fades." Lightsong's hair didn't change during or after any of this either (despite his "watching in horror"). Also recall that we would know if Lightsong's hair ever changed at all because we're in his head and the royals can feel their hair change color even slightly, without having to look at it to confirm. EDIT 2: Which would make it even less likely that the Returned simply have a "better" version of the Royal Locks, since they would most definitely know about it and have a comparable or superior "hair changing detection" ability for their own hair. We also never see anyone say to Siri that "oh, you're hair is like a stupid ignorant version of how the Returned change their hair," with even Treledees reacting with mild shock, if I recall correctly. EDIT 3: Actually, on the point of Vasher getting the influx at the beginning of the book, that would have been a ludicrously excellent point to put in a "hair going <color> with uncontrollable pleasure": it wouldn't have disrupted the narrative at all and would have been a nice hint at Vasher's nature and the nature of the Royal Locks. EDIT 4: Besides Vasher's hair changing color being appropriate in a "bookly" sense, we know that, no matter how much control an individual has over their emotions normally, you just can't shrug off an influx of Breaths over a cetain threshold--like how even "control-man" Vasher's hair should have changed color in the jail scene at the same time as he functionally lost control of his body.

Ah Nepene, once again we clash where I am obviously right. As I said, frequent and incidental hair-changery appears to be a unique manifestation of the Royal Locks. Certainly its derived from the Divine Breath, and all Divine Breaths almost certainly have the capacity to enable such an attribute, but we see no evidence that normal Returned have this attribute. In fact, the lack of such evidence provides a preposterous amount of negative evidence against normal Returned changing their hair color with the ease/cause of the Royal Locks. As far as the pleasure of having all the Breaths in him: First of all, Denth's hair only changed color when he is dying. There is no mention of it changing between the infusion of Breaths and his killing. Second, Denth's hair goes through a variety of emotions while he dies, none of which could conceivably be linked to "pleasure" in the context of the scene. Third, Vasher gets a massive, pleasurable influx of Breath in the beginning of the book, but no mention is made of his hair changing color. So, is your "pleasure" point suggesting that, quite uniquely, a Returned hair will go through the range of their emotions if and only if they are given a massive influx of Breaths (causing intense pleasure) and then immediately killed?

^According to Brandon (can't find the source for some reason, help, anyone?), the other continents don't count as properly holy, so they don't matter in the "conquer the world" counter.

Yes, I imagine it would be quite difficult if it were possible. It might be impossible because of sDNA and all (though I think not), but the soulstamp would need to start at "well, first I was born to completely different parents in a different continent, then...", so it might be a bit difficult on the "plausibility scale."

He is the fool. Confirmed by Brandon.

Some background information. Yes, they are actually the same symbol, most likely representing the same "surges." Link Perhaps Voidbinders use the second set because it represents a fundamentally different approach to the things the glyphs represent? Either way, we know that both sets of symbols are fundamentally referencing the same concepts. EDIT: So yeah, it kind of is "D'uh, we all knew that." You threw in some original thought as well, though, so we'll forgive you. EDIT 2: The set on the back does matter, though, because Brandon is being so close-mouthed about it.

Oh, really sorry about that. I read your post, thought "I'll try to pin spren to each of these!", got distracted, then came back 10 minutes later and was like "Silly Windrunner, Slave form is for Parshmen!" Yes, that makes perfect sense. Dull form is interesting, since it must be a simple spren to capture (what with a slave-form Parshendi/Ur-Parshendi being able to do it), but not that simple, since Parshmen in the broader world haven't captured the spren in question. It could simple be because Parshendi have to go out in Highstorms in order to change Form, while the human owners of Parshmen would not expose their property like that. On top of that, the Parshendi probably take special steps to be sure not to die in Highstorms when they change Form, so the odd Parshmen stuck in the wind would not be likely to survive the process and come back in Dull Form. Unless there was some Shardic intervention, I would guess that the very first Parshendi was a lucky slave-form who managed to survive a Highstorm and bond the appropriate spren; that Parshendi would then go on to convert all of his brethren more safely. Side note: Thin Form would work with Windspren, I guess.

I would guess that "Mating form" is a combo with passionspren. As for the rest, I can't really figure anything out. One correction, though: Dull form is not the same as Slave form (the "formless form," as it were), which is what Parshmen are in.

Okay, I just wanted to draw attention to it. As far as generating spren merge with and so get forms goes, I imagine that a friendly human or two to generate the spren would be helpful. Or even spren-trapping fabrial gems could work, if the Parshendi don't have a way to keep the spren in place until the next storm once they're attracted.

Some mergery needs to happen here. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2553-brandons-reading-in-toronto/

Nice. Thanks for recording it. *Spoilers, obviously* So, "Slave form" for normal Parshmen, then, with a shift into "Odium form" or perhaps just "War form" triggered each Desolation?

Not so fast!