Kurkistan

Yeah, fire's just a dream, a beautiful, horrible dream... One problem with ranged weapons is the Reverse Lashing. Szeth can just Lash the ground or carry a Lashed shield and take care of most projectiles, unless he allows himself to be completely surrounded. Surprise would obviously be ideal, but we can't count on it. To kill who he's ordered to kill, yes, but not to try at the earliest possible opportunity if that opportunity is sure to result in death. A king can certainly have more guards, but he's got to go inside and not be in the middle of a ring-o-death at some point, as it would be cost-prohibitive, detrimental to his position, and mildly insane to maintain that ring-o-death permanently. Yeah, he can obviously have his own set of guards, but Szeth never being able to get close was kind of the point of your scenario, so everything else is just immediately wasted when Szeth Superman's in.

Okay, nice to narrow down on the models. I agree that the cell structure is useful for visualizing the Cognitive realm as a guardian of the Spiritual, but it has served its purpose. For Science! Just a note: We only have a highly specific example of how Surgebinders hold stormlight. Kaladin is a Windrunner (Body Focus: Inhalation) and Szeth is some kind of psuedo-Windrunner. It makes sense that breathing out is what causes them to lose stormlight, and you could even say that everything else they lose is a result of their skin "breathing." Everything we say about how humans hold and lose stormlight may be wrong because of this. Besides that, though, I don't actually think that holding stormlight needs to be that much of a problem under any model. Surgebinders, whether through spren or through other means (Szeth *glares*) could just get the sDNA specification that they can imperfectly intake, retain, and utilize stormlight as an energy source. Gems might simply be the focuses of magic on Roshar, uniquely suited--through a quirk of the world--to holding stormlight. I think we're allowed to just say that people/gems can hold stormlight imperfectly as a function of their sDNA/being focuses on Roshar: I might just be being lazy here, but that's my initial reaction. I'm tempted to think that Kaladin can absorb stormlight directly. We know there aren't spren in Shinovar, where the Highstorms don't go, so spren feed off of stormlight somehow. It wouldn't be surprising if the benefit of having Syl is just a blanket "can absorb stormlight" quality, rather than being restricted to "can absorb stormlight from gems." Soulcasting relies on gems because the gems are what shape the casting, but Kaladin doesn't care where the stormlight was stored before he uses it. My interpretation of that was that Shards hold the Power of Creation, they don't just channel it. So the Shards are the ultimate power source for magic systems. I don't see how the presence of a Shard fueling magic without their direct control (like taking advantage of the shade of a tree without that tree's permission) conflicts with my theory.

Hey guys/gals. I know you're probably getting tired of my time bubble threads by now, but now I have actual new information, so stuff might start happening. I asked some time bubble questions on the Q&A, and here are the answers: In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both. We have definite confirmation of objects always being entirely in/out. We also have the example of a passenger in a train being unaffected by a Cadmium bubble which the train passes through. This might fall under my distension theory, with the train distending the bubble away from it's passengers, but we also have the intriguing statement that it "depends in part on how the object views itself." So a passenger who doesn't view him/herself as "on" the train might be affected? Or is that too broad an interpretation for "in part?" Don't worry, I won't subject you to a mega-post (yet). Theorize away!

We also need to have some serious discussion about time bubbles. His response to my question about them was quite a bit different from how we've been treating them up until now, especially the train. I feel that I (as a self appointed Mr. Time Bubbles) should start a new thread and theorize and all of that, but my head is really deep into the MEC right now, and I fear that I would either be sidetracked by Realmatic permutations or wouldn't be bold enough in my theorizing because of my biases and/or fear of disproving myself. EDIT: Actually, I'll just throw up a really basic thread right now and start soliciting others to chime in.

A bit of a necro, but I've always loved this topic, so I don't mind. You have constructed a good situation for fighting Szeth. Some fire and explosives would be nice, but you can't have everything. There are two problems, though. First of all, our primary goal here is to create a non-magical, relatively easily deploy-able, battlefield-ready technique for fighting various magic users. You've hit on the "non-magical" part readily enough, but deployability and battlefield readiness are still an issue. Yes, Windrunners (including Szeth in that category because of his power set) aren't as dangerous on the battlefield as full Shardbearers, and can be zerg-swarmed into death just like Shardbearers, perhaps even much more easily. But nothing of your plan really improves on that, since you're essentially detailing a defense-plan that happens to require a small army to carry out effectively, not a generalized way to counter Windrunners on the field of battle without sacrificing countless lives. Second, why would Szeth enter or stay in your Arena of Death? You describe a defense plan, not a battle, so Szeth is there to assassinate someone, steal something, or the like. He assassinates people in their homes partially because it's a lot easier for him to work indoors, so why not just wait until everyone goes home for the night, rather sheepishly, after a day of waiting with their bags of glass to fight a phantom who never showed up? Even if Szeth walks into this situation and is faced with a battle on a circular, flat plane in order to get at a target in the middle, he can leave very easily. Basic lashing at a 45 degree angle == flight. Basic Lashing at a 90 degree angle, then at 0 degrees == shooting upwards, then flying horizontal to the ground at 9.8 m/s/s. Outside, it's incredibly easy for a Windrunner with no reason to stay to just leave, as long as he has the Stormlight. EDIT: Or he could even just fly right to his target and take him out, avoiding everyone else in the process.

I think that we're in complete agreement here. That's essentially the same conclusion that I came to about the Basic Lashing in my very first post on this subject. Nice to see similar conclusions through separate thought processes. Ah, that makes much more sense now. I can agree with you as the Cognitive realm allowing a very specific kind of access to the Spiritual. I think you're persistent "cell" terminology is actually a bit harmful in this case, actually. It seems more that the Spiritual aspect is an estate bordering the Cognitive, with a gate in between them. When you say "cell," I immediately think of an all-enveloping layer of Cognitive encapsulating the Spiritual realm. I'm not sure that Stormlight really needs to be "bottled" in the Spiritual realm by Cognitive aspects. The Cognitive aspects of well-cut gems certainly aren't more robust than those of rough-cut ones, but they still hold Stormlight fairly well. The human body seems to simply be a poorly-wrought container for Stormlight in the Physical sense, not in the Cognitive. I just saw Brandon's reply that the Cognitive is not the only route from the Physical to the Spiritual realm. So there are other ways of access that simply disregard the Cognitive realm. Thank you. As Brandon said, though, it still needs work even in just its general principles. The Command as a "gateway" is an interesting way to look at it. I'm tempted initially to say "no" since it doesn't seem that Awakening actually needs to access any external power source, with everything given by the Breath, so it could simply be a closed system with the Cognitive aspect, once again, providing a mechanism for action. Alternatively, though, it could be that there actually are a finite number of Commands, with each one serving as a gateway--activated by Breath--and the efficacy of which is akin to well- or poorly-drawn Aons on Sel. Or Breaths could still provide the power without reliance on an outside source (beyond their Breathyness itself), but be keyed to these gateways anyway. This would make Awakening essentially like Aons with each Breath as a miniature Dor, really. It's plausible enough, and definitely deserves some discussion and maybe evidence-trawling. I'm obviously very biased at this point, so I'm still tempted to leave Awakening much more open to the interpretations of its users, where Commands are in truth invented rather than discovered. Vasher does talk about discovering Commands, though, so you have ground to stand on. But, while Aons seem to simply be saying "apply this power in this specific way," Awakening seems more demanding in that it requires a second level of interpretation, "apply this power to move this object in these specific ways in these circumstances" where the power is simply something that enables an object to act, not the actor itself. I'm interested to hear your thoughts and see if you can find any evidence to back this interpretation up, but I still think that the complexity of the tasks that good Visualizations allow seems to imply that more is going on than a simple boost in power. Yeah, I'm hoping that we get a few more interesting answers before all's said and done. I'm actually looking through the Q&A again right not to make sure I didn't miss anything. I like that particular addition to CR as well, I'll admit.

The Catsmere, actually, and they will have to vie for dominance with Mistborn Llamas--though obviously the Catquisitors will win, what with their combination of Allomancy and Feruchemy (and all other useful combat magics) and natural fighting ability. On a slightly less serious note, we do have non-tongue-in-cheek confirmation that Hemalurgy can give cats intelligence, as well as what amounts to confirmation that animals can receive Hemalurgic abilities.

General Update (I'll reply to OS in a bit): I asked a few questions pertaining to this theory on the Q&A. You're very close here. And so I get one step closer to winning the war with Nepene. I would have preferred a clear answer on the first, simpler question, but I see this as a fairly clear indication that Breaths do not have the inherent ability to interpret and carry out commands. Most of my "closeness" is almost certainly related to my ridiculously detailed block-question, though, not the simple binary one. A novel use of Hemalurgy which is not outside the sphere of its powers. So that's one for you, OS. Last One: Ha! That's a very interesting way to look at it. The theory isn't all there, but it's thinking along the right lines. Good enough for now, I'll say. EDIT: A nice thought, but we still need to refine it significantly. The best part of that quote (which I never in a million years thought he wouldn't just RAFO) is that we know we're facing the right direction in our search.

Was it Shallan's brother, by the way?

@Odium You can cut up a quote by putting in tags pretty easily, just so you know. It makes reading everything simpler: Okay, I await your explanation. I'm not quite sure if I understand exactly what you're getting at, especially with how gravity-changing works. Sorry. I agree on the ambiguity, either way. The question remains, though, as to why changing something/someone's spiritual gravitational bond with Roshar is fundamentally different from changing that person into fire, if both specifications are squirreled away in a Cognitive-shielded Spiritual realm. I see. Makes enough sense within your system, I suppose. I think you lost me with "cell points" and teleportation. My interpretation, though it's not very well developed, was that Hoid could just alter some "location" part of his aspect directly. Okay, I'm fine with the Cognitive realm being both a wall and deep in it's own right. The problem is that, no matter how you breach the wall, it's still a wall which must ultimately be dealt with for all access to the Spiritual realm, unless I'm misreading you. My reading of Duraluminum feruchemy suggests that the Cognitive realm can be bypassed to get to the Spiritual, and it seems to make sense that there should exist some independent path from each of the realms into both of the others. Quite. It's nice to be back to talking about broader issues rather than focusing on minutia and arguing interpretations.

Just to clarify, I'm quite eager to try to see if I can incorporate your theory into my own; or, ideally, if you could do it instead, popping over to my thread to add the implications of your analysis and thus preserving your original intent, as well as saving me work and the accumulation of perceived megalomania-points.

I've asked too many questions already, so I would suggest that you ask something about this on the Q&A, Windrunner.

Hello Mr. Sanderson. I'd like to add my thanks for you being an amazing author and also for obliging our craziness. Though if you hadn't been so very awesome as to have your Cosmere make sense and be fundamentally understandable, then we probably wouldn't be so crazy about figuring it out, so... I've been foolhardy enough to try to deduce your Unifying Theory, so you'll have to forgive me for some of the minutia I'm about to ask. I'm torn between "I really shouldn't ask that much: he's being such a good sport about this and it's really too much to expect for him to read/answer relatively trivial questions" and "Must. Get. Answers!" BioChroma: Do Breaths inherently possess the ability to interpret and carry out commands, or does the Awakener need to impart that decision making ability on Awakened objects? If the Awakener does need to impart the decision-making ability, then does Awakening consist of an Awakener copying a portion of his/her Cognitive aspect (as determined by his/her visualization and verbal Command) onto the Cognitive aspect of the object being Awakened, with Breath then providing the "juice" for the object to actually follow its Command: powering both physical motion and "cogitation" based upon the copied Cognitive aspect? -If so, is that copying what drains color? Time Bubbles: If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds? On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marisi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by? Misc.: (These ones aren't my ideas originally, but I like them) What is/was Endowment's gender? Is Endowment the same being as Austre (making him male)? Is Wax's hemalurgic earring in Alloy of Law giving him slight Allomantic Pewter, enabling Harmony to fuel Pewter Allomancy directly in the final fight sequence? Can Hemalurgy be used to steal Shardblades directly, transferring ownership from the victim to the spike's recipient without a need for the recipient to physically take the Shardblade first? And also to give cats various powers through Hemalurgy, resulting in uber-powerful Catquisitors forming a Caton of Inquisition and taking over the Cosmere (then renamed the Catsmere)? RAFO Bait: Would it be fair to describe the three realms as the Spiritual realm providing motivation/general directives (gravity, desires, energy, etc.), the Cognitive realm interpreting and applying those directives, and the Physical realm as where these directives--as interpreted by the Cognitive realm--are actually implemented? All of this with interactions/change flowing back and forth between the realms as well (Physical phenomena affecting thought affecting the spirit, for example). P.S. Wow that's longer than I thought it would be. Feel free to pick and choose, although (obviously) the question about Catquisitors is the most pressing. Thank you again.

Quite interesting. You're idea is lent extra credence by the recent Orem Q&A: I also don't see any fundamental conflicts between this theory and my own mega-theory (which is good for me, at least, though it might not matter for you ). I could buy Cognitive aspects varying in strength based upon the interaction of Physical and Spiritual aspects, although there is the question of what this means for the nature of Cognitive beings that are merely shadowed in the Physical realm.

So much Terminology, so much... Although it's necessary for breaking new ground now I feel guilty for how much Terminology I have. I'm not sure about exactly what you mean by referring to the Cognitive realm as "mere perspective" You're theory about Surgebinding is quite interesting. I particularly like you're extension of the concept of a "vessel" to simply include humans as a subset, as well as how it explains the unique effects of different gems with different cuts. -- I'm not quite sure of how you model the "resistance" of the system, though (just stop me if you have oodles of proof waiting in the wings, or I simply misunderstand because you condensed it down for my benefit): I don't think we've really seen much difference between how sentient beings and inanimate objects are treated for either Surgebinding (at least for Szeth-style psuedo-Windrunners) or Soulcasting. We only get a third person perspective when Jasnah Soulcast the muggers to death, but don't get much indication that her ability to Soulcast a living person was remarkable or particularly draining on her gemstones, at least not more so than a normal Soulcasting. We might have expected a "but people can't be Soulcast" reaction from Shallan if Soulcasting intelligent beings was particularly difficult. Not the strongest case, though, since Shallan can't be expected to know much about Soulcasting, since it is a religious activity and obviously Vorinism wouldn't be eager to talk about their ability to turn people into pure fire. The focus of that passage was also quite obviously not on the nature of Soulcasting, what with the murder(?) and all. The stronger case is against Surgebinding in particular, since we have multiple POV's of Szeth doing Basic Lashings on his enemies and himself. At no point do we see a particularly large drain on his resources, more so than just the proportional amount of Stormlight needed to lift relatively massive people as opposed to other object. -- You're close "physical" connection between the Cognitive and Spiritual realms is also quite an interesting way to approach the Realms, one which did not occur to me. While I agree that Cognitive aspects are a natural "gateway" to both of the other Realms, I don't see the necessity of them being the only gateway. Physically stabbing people through the heart with spikes seems do do the trick with Hemalurgy regardless of the intelligence of its victims (though such violence may simply be at "penetration level 1000" while the range of human "resistance" only goes up to 100). The Spiritual Feruchemical metals, particularly Connection, also seem to directly affect the Spiritual aspects of people without regard for their Cognitive aspects. Viewing the Cognitive aspects of objects/people as a mere "cell-wall" is somewhat limiting for both the Cognitive and Spritiual realms, I think. It seems somewhat natural to see Cognitive aspects as simply thin shell by which Spiritual directives are filtered (as my theory does, to some extent), but I don't think we need to go so far as to make that shell be all-encompassing. The Cognitive realm may well have a certain amount of "depth" to it, and the Spiritual realm seems unduly restricted if the only way into it is through the Cognitive. It's mostly a visualization thing, I'll admit, but crucial, I think, if we're to discuss the possible depth of the Cogntive realm and the possibility of alternative means of egress to the Spiritual. -- Do you have any thoughts on my ideas about spren, Intelligence, and Memory, by the way? EDIT: I would also appreciate if anyone reading this could think up and ask questions which could prove/disprove my theory, since the Q&A is nigh.

Nice to have another crazy person on board. Muwhaha. The Cognitive/Spiritual division is actually the fuzziest area so far, so I welcome your input. Sorry I didn't take the time to find/read/reference your theories (which I didn't know existed until now). I kind of stumbled into this and then was either lazy or wanted to maintain the purity of my thought process, depending on how charitable you're being. Any insights from the good old days would be appreciated. -- I can buy that for Shardblades. I'm not sure about the necessity/nature of this "tunnel," though. Those are also some very interesting thoughts on Hemalurgic theft of Shardblades. I doubt the hand is the link, though, since otherwise it would probably be common-enough knowledge that simply cutting off a Shardbearer's hand (or even just "severing" it with another Shardblade, probably) is enough to get their Blade. I've been remiss in not addressing Hemalurgy, one of the few magic systems which we know is directly linked to sDNA. On the topic of Hemalurgy, I've been knocking around the idea of Memory and/or Intelligence as possibly stored in the Spiritual realm, partially because both can be stolen by spikes (though we're not sure if Memory as an attribute is actual discrete memories or simply memory capacity/clarity). -- Memory might be stored in the Spiritual rather than the Cognitive realm just because it's somewhat more intrinsic to the nature of a person (i.e. their soul) than most other mental attributes, although this does create a problem in breaking up Feruchemical divisions of the metals in an unnatural way, unless we then re-do the division. Intelligence seems more intuitive, actually, since we know (hopefully) from Awakening that greater Cognitive complexity requires more Spiritual energy to power. So increased "intelligence" could be a result of unnaturally boosting the Spiritual energy associated with someone's Cognitive aspect. This idea of intelligence as a function of Spiritual energy actually flows fairly well with a possible discussion of the nature of spren. They could well be the mostly-Cognitive beings that Brandon talked about, mostly existing as evidence of interaction between the Realms (as the Cognitive is the hub). Where things fall into place, though, is that the Nahel, bond, in this case, would actually consist of the Surgebinder giving Spiritual energy (either a small portion from their own aspect or as siphoned from Stormlight) to boost the heretofore starved minds of Nahel-bonded spren. EDIT: Scratch all of the intelligence stuff about spren. The Orem Q&A says: To be addressed later, a bit busy looking over the Q&A's right now. That would also explain Syl having a distinct personality from Kaladin, since she has her own complete mind (rather than hijacking his if she was a Spiritual being), but needs extra Spiritual energy to make it work properly. Her lack of clear memory from before her time with Kaladin and difficulty remembering to stay on task while away from him (when she got the leaves) could also be a result of an incomplete Spiritual aspect, if Memory is really stored in the Spiritual realm. ...Or memory is stored in the Cognitive realm but also needs spiritual fuel to be persistent/fresh/accessible, explaining Syl's gradual rediscovery of her identity/past. That would also obviate the need to mess with the Feruchemical groupings (which have so far been a very helpful guide). -- As far as reading the whole thread, feel free to skim the ridiculously long war between Nepene and myself. It's mostly about Awakening and got a bit out of hand, really. Thank you, by the way.

Most definitely. It would be great to have someone else work out some permutations and/or offer helpful suggestions (nothing's perfect). Be sure to give me the link when you get you're theory up and I'll link to it in the OP.

No. I am growing weary of your obstinate and horrifying tendency to reweave more and more tangled webs of "theory" every time I knock one down. Fine then. I'm done trying to reason with you, with addressing each of your answers and concerns point by point and trying to persuade you of the error of your ways. It seems that nothing short of Brandon coming down from on high and saying "no, Breaths definitely don't store anything even related to instincts" would convince you. Thank you for your real solution to the problem of instinctive Awakening and for spurring me to discover the possibility of Breaths storing some small amount of Identity, as well as for bringing the interesting questions of purely Cognitive beings, spren, hemalurgy, and the relationship between Spiritual energy and Cognitive complexity to my attention. Now if you don't have anything meaningful to add beyond that, please feel free to post your theory of Instinctive Awakening on its own thread with all of your evidence for your own discussion all in one place which is not here.

The site wiki. Linked to at the top of the forum. Welcome to the forums, by the way! http://coppermind.net/wiki/Main_Page

What, exactly, would make more sense? We don't see Drabs or Awakeners with more or less "fuzzy" minds, just sharper or duller perception of the world. He never defined "instinct" or "emotional memory" either. He did tell us that three distinct realms (P, C, and S) exist, so I think it's a pretty good idea to base our analysis on them. The goblet says exactly: "You want me to change?" "I’ve been as I am for a great long time" and "I will change. Give me what you have." You're adding a smidgen to the narrative there. EDIT 3: Presumably, that goblet was just sitting there minding its own business, not actively reacting to the world around it, since the day it was created. It's only Cognitive action that we see is a fairly simple response to a magic system. How about I offer an alternative narrative from yours, one which doesn't interpret the goblet as something of a latent sapient mind: The goblet receives a stimulus (being in the presence of a soulcast-capable human), sends out pertinent information about its state, waits for input on how Shallan wants it to change that state (as is what the magic system ought to cause it to do), and then takes Shallan's stormlight and defaults to pure blood when Shallan fails to offer any deviations--within an appropriate time frame--from what her garnet naturally suggests. Doesn't that sound a bit more "instinctual" and deterministic to you? The act of soulcasting from this perspective simply initiates a chain of queries and responses as a result of those queries. I'm not saying that it's a sure thing that this is how it actually works, but you are a bit quick to dismiss the goblet as "merely" sapient in your effort to preserve the sanctity of "instincts." Is it so unbelievable that animals are simply a more robust, active version of this kind of Cognitive aspect, one which is active even when there is not soulcasting in their vicinity? But I digress. The main point of that quote was to prove to you that even very simple objects have Cognitive aspects. A rope will have a Cognitive aspect whether or not it's Awakened. So when you Awaken it, what's wrong with saying that the Awakener just tacks another bit onto the Cognitive aspect? You keep belaboring that it's possible for instinct to be separate from Cogntion, and its possible for Breaths to store this instinct, but why are you fighting so hard? You say that "all evidence points to" Breaths housing instincts, but what evidence is that, exactly? I just did a cursory search of the last page and couldn't really find anything of note. Most of your points seem geared towards providing an alternative to my model, but you keep having to explain away why we see no real evidence, especially in Drabs and Awakeners, of what should be there if you're right. Your theory is ethereal to boot, with you swinging between extremes of: 1) Awakeners imparting instincts to Breaths upon Awakening and no instinct-loss for Drabs 2)Drabs losing instincts to Breaths -Or Drabs having a harder time learning new instincts 3)New iteration: You can learn new instincts and so presumably have spare capacity. Under my theory of how breaths are made, some or all of that spare capacity is is in breaths. Whatever is not being used. Or all of your breath might know what it feels like to grab. Drabs feel that loss. EDIT: 4)I was guessing that while the breaths are wandering about a person's body they pick up what it's like to grab from the soul in your hands. If from my first theory they are blank when endowed to another they might pick up the nature of being alive when they're in a new person. -Tell me if I missed any. From that we get that instincts can suddenly be learned, as opposed to being intrinsic: Instinct: 1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species. 2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency. 3. a natural aptitude or gift: an instinct for making money. 4. natural intuitive power. Wikipedia: Any behavior is instinctive if it is performed without being based upon prior experience (that is, in the absence of learning), and is therefore an expression of innate biological factors --No learning there. So you can't mean actual instinct, as in the kind you're born with. That eliminates 3 and a subsection of 2, leaving only instincts being copied over from the Awakener and being stolen from Drabs. Once again, no evidence of Drabs/Awakeners being more/less "instinctively capable" exists in the books, so let's not make assumptions. EDIT 5: You would think that an Awakener who was holding a "sword fighting capable" Breath would be better at sword fighting, and that there would even be an economy for "Breath trainers" to provide these skills to Awakeners. If Breaths just sit around in 1-Breath people gathering extra copies of "instincts" to them, then those Breaths should probably boost the original set, so the "ordinary" level of Grasping for people on Nalthis is actually some degree better than usual. Drabs should suffer from this when they lose the boost to these attributes, and Awakeners should benefit. Even if, for no apparent reason, Drabs/Awakeners don't see any benefits from extra "instincts" they hold, we should still see an economy for "Breath trainging." We know that Lifeless who were skilled in life remain skilled after death, and people notice and care about this, so they should also notice and care about different skill-levels in Breaths. A judo-master equivalent's Breath should have a particularly robust and useful "hold things" "instinct," should it not? A person with a good sense of direction might have a particularly useful "find tunnels" instinct. A skilled fighter should provide a useful Breath for "fight for me, as if you were me." Besides this kind of thing being mentioned just because it should be for any detailed magic system, such "professions" would have added depth and character to Hallandrian culture within the book, and certainly would have been worth mentioning as a logical consequence of Breaths being as you describe them. We know that Brandon likes "mundane utility" for his magic systems and examining the logical implications of what magic would do to a society, certainly, and "Breath trainer" as a profession would definitely be a perfect example of that kind of implication. -- EDIT: Just re-noticed #4, I'll address it now. First of all, it still violates the narrative of Drabs losing out when they give up Breath if Breaths are just "spare capacity." Second, and more importantly, my soul doesn't know how to extend and retract my body, or how to fight to defend myself in the form of a cloak. As it turns out, motor skills (like grasping and defending yourself (effectively) and whatnot) are learned behaviors too. So there goes your entire instinct argument. That's nice, and means that even stealing actual, universal instincts from Drabs won't cut it, since those instincts don't even include "hold things." But wait, can't we just transfer these learned behaviors? First of all, that kind of thing is hardwired in on the individual level, so ought to be a bit harder to transfer. Even allowing for transfer, though, it's still far more narrow than Awakening shows. No Breath-giver will have the learned behavior to extend or retract (as a rope, no less), no matter how hard you imagine that Breath responding when tapped on in specific ways. Some of the other Commands' implementations ("Protect me" as a cloak and "Strengthen me" come to mind) are also such that they really shouldn't be learned behaviors for any average Joe human that you get Breaths from, but the rope is probably the strongest example. EDIT 2: More examples of improbable commands for simple motor skills! "Upon call, become my fingers and grip that which I must" "Become as my legs and give them strength" "Fight for me, as if you were me" "Fetch keys" "Find tunnels" Please describe to me the "instinct" that is being called upon to strengthen legs. -- (As you yourself partially quoted on post 32): "the mechanics of how [Vasher] moved about with the ropes were far more complicated than they seemed. His Command incorporated making the rope respond to taps of his finger along its length. Awakening was different from creating a Lifeless—Lifeless had brains and could interpret Commands and requests. The rope had none of that; it could only act on its original instructions." --Also a nice piece of evidence for why Lifeless are re-programmable. Also, learned physical behavior seems an odd thing to program into the Spiritual realm, and really seems much more at home in the Physical/Cognitive, doesn't it? EDIT 2: More fun on instincts. I'm trying to anticipate what you may say. I want this argument to end: Q: "What if, by 'instincts,' I (Nepene) just mean that the Commands create and call upon tasks which are equivalent to instincts in relative simplicity and lack of Cognitive demand, so it's still an instinct?" A: You've been talking non-stop about the human source of the Breath and human instinct being the basic restriction upon Awakening. Commands can be "equivalent" to instinct all you want, but that doesn't mean that can be embedded in Breaths in any real way prior to the moment of Awakening. The "create" part is the problem here, not the "call upon." Q: As far as 'Upon call, become my fingers and grip that which I must,' I have done that. I have copied other hands. But I wouldn't say it's a common action of mine, or one I have a good instinct for. So Awakening is just strengthening really weak instincts. A: Well I've never copied someone's hand motions. The piano isn't my thing. Does Vasher ever go "I hope the vast majority ("it was a difficult Command. It required far more Breath to Awaken than he would have liked") of the Breaths I got from all of those poor rebellious farmers had some kind of "follow hands" motor skill worn in so well that they could do it unconsciously, to some extent"? How exactly would he go about "strengthening instincts" anyway? If each and every one of those Breaths is supposed to work together to move this foreign matter, won't all of them need a fairly complete set of "instincts?" Where will Vasher get them all? Just by imagining? Then why do Breaths need to store instinct in the first place? Can't he just imagine the whole lot and never have to worry about it? -- So we have to have a way to program new learned behaviors into objects then. We can't ever teach ourselves to "extend/retract," obviously, so the behavior has to be created out of whole cloth at the moment of Awakening, perhaps even by imagining it. It's almost as if the only option really left to us is to have the Awakener mentally create and then transfer the mechanism by which they want an object to carry out a Command. To sum up, Breaths can't store "instinct" of any sort because it doesn't cover the range of actions Awakened objects are capable of, as well as making Breaths non-generalized and unacceptably unique in requiring that the Breath-giver learned certain skills before giving the Breath up--which skills they should then lose, by the way. Such as Vivienne's ability to grasp anything when she's a Drab, since it's so basic as to be in everyone's Breath. The tap-sensitive rope is really my trump card here, since it has nothing whatsoever to do with any human action. You can call the primitive deterministic behavior of Awakened objects "instinct" all you want, but that doesn't address where that "instinct" needs to originate, namely in the mind of the Awakener. I suppose you can still say that the "instinct" imagined by the Awakner is stored in the Spiritual realm with the newly transferred Breath, but you don't really have any reason to at this point, especially since the origin of these mechanisms is clearly within the Cognitive aspect of the Awakener. -- As far as I know about the evidence at hand, I can't prove the negative yet of how it can be simply impossible that "instincts" fall in the Spiritual realm. But I have argued very strongly and, I believe, very effectively for the improbability of Breaths "stealth storing" instincts and then using them when used in Awakening. What, exactly, is so wrong with suggesting that "instinct," defined as something to the effect of "non-reflective reaction to the world" (as enabled by the existence of your mind), is also seated in the Cognitive realm? What is so very good about instincts being stored in Breath that you insist upon them, and so very bad about Cognitive copying that you can't stomach it? I'm simply growing weary at this point, and don't understand why you fight so hard for an unnecessary and unfounded distinction. Dig (n): A taunt. That still places the decision in the wrong place. In the case of Nightblood, I'm perfectly fine with his Cognitive aspect being the one that made the decision on how to interpret "destory evil," and you must agree that either way the point Brandon seemed to be getting at was a decision taking place within Nightblood, not in the mind of his Awakener. Nice quotes. You did note him recognizing the appropriate course of action (prompted by his magic) and then taking it, did you not?: "I should cook the meat first, he thought. But, how did he know that?" Not just "Devin reached for the meat first without thinking, unsure of what he was doing or why. He felt a prisoner in his own body, watching in amazement as he prepared a feast, letting his mind wander as his body and instincts took control." The actions all take place with his volition: presumably he could stay his hand in a fight if he wanted to spare his enemy, or sacrifice himself for a greater cause in that same fight, both of which would go against "fighting instincts." Devin's skills seem to be enabling him to act as he wills, not constraining him to act as his newfound "instincts" demand. Drugging me or making me tired won't stop me from pulling my hand back from a flame, putting my hands out to catch myself when I fall, or eating food when I'm hungry. It will hinder me in cooking an edible meal, though. More like implanting the skills artificially in his head. He uses a fisherman to get to shore to get back to Vivienne to get back to Vasher. That sounds like problem solving to me. He could have just killed the fisherman immeditately without any long-term planning and then been dropped back into the ocean, or failed to call out to Vivienne (who he'd only just met), with no metallic skin off of his non-existent back. Besides that, I can't think of any time when Nightblood was alone enough to need to think things out. As far as establishment goes, it's as well established as your own at the very least, Mr. Glass-house-owner. 1. What would be evidence of a Cognitive presence is kind of the point of the last 10,000 words. 2. Okay. That's nice. Instinct: An innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli. Drabs do not show any evidence whatsoever of ever feeling that loss. First of all, that's an abusive redefinition of sentience that ignores how we've been using it so far. We've been using it as a stand in for "human-level intelligence," the two being equivalent in most parlance because of certain philosophical theories stating that true "experience" can only be had by intelligent beings. I meant intelligence, you meant intelligence. EDIT 4: You've been requiring that something be intelligent in order to be in the Cognitive left and right, so I think it's fair to say that sentience should be in the Cognitive realm. It also just makes sense when you use the word "cognitive" that intelligent minds be included (as well as less intelligent minds, as I suggest, but that's not what we're talking about at the moment). Brandon, also, appears to be using sentient in that way when he calls Lifeless "90% sentient," (saying " If the Lifeless were sentient enough, it could give up its own Breath") and says spren and Nightblood have "almost sentient behavior." I doubt he's saying that Lifeless lack 10% of the normal ability to perceive, and they could give up their Breath voluntarily if only they got that extra 10%. Quote: "Objects with almost sentient behavior like nightblood in Warbreaker share important links with the Spren from tWoK. If you understand the spren you will understand a lot about the connection between the books." "almost sentient behavior." Unless he means that they're pretty good at perceiving, Brandon definitely means intelligence. Did you really think that we were talking about perception this whole time when we said "sentience?" You yourself pulled the "almost sentient behavior" quote. Were you talking about senses then too? -- Brandon never said it directly to my knowledge, but there doesn't seem to be much point to a Cognitive realm otherwise, does there? Once again, Breaths affect perception which is distinct from sentience as we've been using it. If Breaths don't have full sets of instinct--if Breath A is less capable than Breath B is less capable than Breath C--then you can't trust any given Awakening to actually work or to work as well as the last time you did it under identical conditions. That's the kind of thing you mention at some point in your magic system. Instead, the only limitation to Awakening ever mentioned is the skill of the Awakener and the raw power of their Breaths. Fine.

I'll try not to skip stuff yet, but I feel that we're reaching an end to productive discussion pretty soon. Some degree, perhaps. Or maybe it's evidence that it most certainly is no longer true. That's why first drafts are unreliable: multiple equally plausible interpretations of why something was changed. Sure, I can agree with Breaths "remembering being alive" in a very very very vague sense of being attuned to organic and/or human-like objects and even warping those objects to reflect humanity a bit. The source of this as an actual re-writable memory, instead of just an effect of the intrinsic nature of all Breath falling under the "human" category is what I disagree with. Divine Breaths aren't really carrying "muscle." They grant the ability for Returned to reshape their bodies at will, up to and including making themselves fat instead of Greek gods. That's not what I was talking about, and I didn't realize it was what you were talking about. Ah, I see. Thank you then, that might well be an avenue worth exploring (purely Cognitive beings, spren, hemalurgy, relationship between Spiritual energy and Cognitive complexity, senses of Awakened objects). I guess I've just gotten into the habit of assuming some kind of counter-argument from you. Going back to ambiguity, it could just as easily (and, I think, more likely) that Brandon wanted to eliminate those negative effects as a consequence of Breaths. As far as showing and not telling gets, we don't get any showing of "fuzziness" from not having Breaths except for sick!Vivienne, further evidence against it. Sorry for being unclear. I wasn't saying that we shouldn't do it because it was based in other books, but merely that we should avoid parceling off tiny smidgens of aspects as a rule, at least when we can reasonably posit a more simply system. The thing is I could have sworn I did that. Thanks for the tip, though, since apparently I didn't. Fair enough, again. Okay, I suppose this is as good a place as any to actually explain myself as regards to my dislike of instincts as you have them, namely in the Spiritual realm: The Reach of the Cognitive Realm (and why instincts are in there): Despite the fact that instincts and instinctual responses don't fall under cogitation, as in complex introspective thought, the Cognitive realm as I've defined it is not limited to only sentient beings. According to the three-aspect model of the Cosmere, rocks have Cognitive aspects, and so do fruit flies; all animals have Cognitive aspects, for that matter, most of whom are usually described in the real world as primarily acting on instinct. I put all of these things in the Cognitive realm because they still fall under the category of cognition. Cognition is defined (Wikipedia, but oh well) as: "a group of mental processes that includes attention, memory, producing and understanding language, solving problems, and making decisions." It's stretch to call a rock "deciding" how to fall to the ground a mental process, obviously, but I've expanded it a bit to make room for even inanimate objects having Cognitive aspects, as we know they do (ala the goblet in Shalan's room). So you could describe the primitive Cognitive aspects of animals or Awakened objects as instincts, sure, and you've provided a fair argument for why that description is accurate given how deterministic most instinctual responses are. My disagreement, I suppose, falls under some haziness (though this may be my fault) as to how this instinct can be a Spiritual trait; what that would mean if it was; what it would mean if the instinct actually had to be removed from the Breath giver, stored in an Awakener, and then given to an Awakening target; and why, by the beard of Zeus, you insist on that instinct being stored in the Breath instead of just being endowed from the Awakener at the moment of Awakening. Way of Kings Goblet quote: The goblet talked to her in Shadesmar, otherwise known as the Cognitive realm. Considering that an inanimate object has a Cognitive aspect, I think it's fair to say that instinctive animals have one too. Intelligence is not required for a presence in the Cognitive realm. Or Denth meant that Vasher didn't deserve to live and/or be redeemed for whatever terrible harm he caused Denth by "healing" Denth of the memory of it. Vivienne also didn't see anything actually pass between Vasher and the girl, or Vasher's aura flicker, which you would think would have been mentioned. As far as emotional impact, when someone says, "I can make you forget," that usually means forgetting, not "I can make you emotionally neutral to your still entirely intact memories." The girl also acts somewhat disoriented after her brain-scrub, implying that she didn't know how she got there in the state she was in. Sorry, that was more meant to be a small dig at you than a real substantive point. Souls *shivers* But that's just he problem, "only what's needed" is still a storming huge chunk if it's enough to create a nearly intact mind all on its lonesome. You would think you'd see some mental effect on Drabs and Awakeners. Fair enough. Yet another of my throwaway points. I guess I really am getting a bit tired, and/or losing track of what's been said where by who for what reason. Sorry. See my above discussion of instincts as naturally Cognitive objects. But he would also have to explain how Nightblood's mind came upon its current mechanism for discovering and judging someone's evilness, which would once again plunge us into the nature of that mind. You are aware that this is stronger evidence for Cognitive change than for primitive Spiritual instincts, since cooking is most definitely not instinctive. I doubt that cooking, magic (depending on how the system worked), or even fighting (on a tactical level) could ever fairly be reduced to just "muscle memory." I also doubt that he could have done all of that instinctively without any mental strain if you drugged him or otherwise impaired his ability to think and reason. Even if you insist on disagreeing, I still have my analysis from farther up this post that instincts rightly fall under the Cognitive realm. This isn't a game and skill as a stat is simply an abstraction for a more complex thing (namely, the learning process, experience, wisdom, and yes, muscle memory), whereas whenever I offhandedly call an attribute a stat (for levity's sake), I'm referring something that we've actually seen be arbitrarily raised or lowered without much thought by direct magical intervention. Vin doesn't grow more skilled as a fighter when she burns pewter, she just grows more physically capable of being one. Unless you're mentally impaired or you're walking across a slippery surface of the thing you're grabbing is struggling (once again, cat+flea meds is not a good thing). It's all easy because we've been doing since we were babies, not because it simply is so. I thought it was obvious that I was offering an equally valid alternative interpretation of the nature of Nightblood's mind. To spell it out more clearly, then, everything you say about Nightblood--as you yourself noted just now--and point to as evidence for him being a being of pure emotion and little intellect, could also be attributed to him having a stunted Cognitive aspect and trying to undertake a very complex command. So there's no compelling evidence that says we should choose your new theory over an established one (mine) that explains the facts equally well in Nightblood's case and, if I may say so, better in other cases. Ok. Occam's razor suggests explaining everything that happens in the way that makes the least possible assumptions, barring any other way to distinguish between theories. That's kind of been my point this whole time, since I hold that my theory is more elegant and goes to explain more facts beyond simply Awakening. Very well. See my above analysis on instincts, once again. When you say "It may also be that breaths take some or all of their instincts from the person using breaths. Could a handless person make a hand command?," I grow a bit confused. More and more, I see no real distinction between the consequences of my own theory of Cognitive transference from the Awakener and your posit of "instincts." As for Drabs, if they keep all of their instincts, then where in the name of Cthulhu do the Breaths get them from (barring the Awakener, but that would simply make your theory a direct copy of my own)? I give a power source for Cognitive copying (color), but here you are suggesting that instincts are simply copied over wholesale from Breath givers without any loss on anyone's part, which also contradicts the narrative the book presents of Drabs lacking a piece of themselves when they give up their Breaths. Good point. As I (I'm just gonna' keep referencing it, to save typing) argue above, the Cognitive realm stores more than just full sentience. It also includes inanimate objects, and presumably everything in-between. If Breaths are even partially sentient, then they must be partially Cognitive in their nature, as well as Spiritual. My very first response to you said why this made no sense; there is also our un-ending discussions of how Drabs do not become more stupid nor Awakeners more intelligent due to the presence or absence of Breaths. You yourself eventually settled on a non-intelligent "instincts" attribute which you placed in the Spiritual realm. I think I misinterpreted your reading of Nightblood's sense-sharing to be in support of all Awakened objects also having mind-sharing. Sorry about that. I guess this breaks down to my lack of understanding of how "instincts" differ from primitive Cognitive aspects. I'm just trying to understand what the extent and capabilities of your instinctual Breaths are, and why they end where they do. Referring higher up again, even non-sentient instincts still ought to fall under the Cognitive realm in any well-ordered system, especially since the goblets are already there. EDIT: I can't believe I missed saying this the first time around, but my original criticism that "instincts" being already present in Breaths makes the Visualization step unnecessary actually still applies, even more so with stupid Breaths that grab everything in sight. You're original response was "Hold what things? Hold themselves? Make a cup to hold water? Hold a key to open a door? Hold back someone from a fight? there's a lot of possibilities as to what hold things could mean." In answer, "hold things." Awakened objects make no distinction, so the Visualization step cannot be a "narrowing down" for already fully capable instinctive Breaths. That once again leaves the obvious (and heavily implied in-text) answer that the Visualization provides the method by which the Awakened object ought to go about following its Command. So, once again, the question is raised as to what the Visualization step is for if Breaths are already "instinctively" capable of following Commands. The same holds true for Vivienne having to Visualize "protect me" as well as for othe Commands in the book, like Vasher (pg 285): “Upon call, become my fingers and grip,” he Commanded. The shirt quivered and a group of tassels curled up around his hand. Five of them, like fingers. It was a difficult Command. It required far more Breath to Awaken than he would have liked—his remaining Breath barely allowed him the Second Heightening—and the visualization of the Command had taken practice to perfect." I imagine that instinctive Breaths should know how to be fingers without needing a tricky Visualization, as would also be the case with other such general and self-explanatory Commands. -- Sorry for your confusion. I suppose it stems from my own confusion. Also Cognition (as in belonging to the Cognitive realm) can, by definition, also be dumb, as it turns out. If you accept all of my arguments about Breath, then Breath are mostly just power-sources as far as Awakening is concerned, with the Awakener providing the Cognitive aspect, so Breaths are being just about as optimal as they can be. So yes, I am suggesting that Breathe are based off of something that is unable to process information, namely a small fragment of the human soul, just enough to get the juices flowing but lacking any ability to think, reason, or even react "instinctively" due to its soulyness. I'm sure that there's more we can theorize about them once our oh-so-small discussion is out of the way.

First off, Brandon did actually put a fair amount of thought into the physical effect of time bubbles (enlisting the forums for help, no less), eventually making a conscious decision to make them unrealistic as applies to light so as not to have the Doppler effect gone wild, as I believe someone else mentioned on this thread. Second of all, I believe that most of the negative reaction to your post was prompted by your "assuming we know everything we need to know is beyond arrogant...(sorry, rant about sciency folks never explaining the difference between theory and fact.)" That particular bit of rant went a bit further than just applications to magical realms.

This is all getting a bit long. Before we start, just a general reminder that this is an early version, with everything from world-building to plot still on the table, so anything that was replaced with something else or omitted entirely from the final version may welll have been altered for a reason. That's in the final version too, btw. Once again, could simply be a quirk of the magic system, or just reflecting the basic human source of Breaths, you know the whole "Law of BioChromatic Parallelism: the closer a host is to a living shape and form; the easier it is to Awaken. BioChroma is the power of life, and so it seeks patterns of life." (paraphrase) that I addressed back on the first page. Memory is a whole 'nother beast altogether, and I'll add physical muscles being stored in Breaths to my "reason to eat my shoes" list. A: Nightblood is weird. B: Nightblood is really weird. C: I already suggested that Nightblood has some abnormal Spiritual and/or Cognitive mind-reading powers because he's weird. D: Okay, I don't see what this has to do with emotional memory or anything else you've posited. I'm calling world-building tweak on that. That's the kind of thing you should mention at some point, and intentionally crossing it out indicates that Brandon didn't want that in there. Recall that Vivienne's earlier mind-fog was almost instantaneously explained by a disease, perhaps even to stop people from thinking that the above was still true. I think this is still essentially in the final addition. Or the Cognitive aspect of the Lifeless is simply stronger with a more intuitive, stronger-willed Awakener. We're probably better off not parceling out Feruchemical and Hemalurgical aspects as the reason for everything. Ah, I missed that one in my initial trawl. Thank you. "Awakening" post updated for that, although I don't think it really matters that much. So more complex Commands (with more complex Cognitive aspects) require more Spiritual energy to power the Cognitive aspect's cogitations. Another interesting route for exploration in the future (along with Spren and Hemalurgy). Or possibly Brandon didn't want to draw attention to memory just yet, since, besides Lifeless retaining their skills, Arsteel, as you argued, seems to remember his Arsteel-ness. Also from final, if I recall. Yeah. That's kind of the whole idea. Almost like they have minds. I don't dispute this, it's part of the bedrock of my theory. Although it's a fairly complicated command, so I do wonder how instinct could account for it... Big presumption. Vasher's "brain Awakening" is a mystery at this point. Apparently, he knows Commands that people can do on themselves, perhaps simply saying "Me: Forget the last two days" and so altering their own Cognitive aspects (aka memories) in circumstances like with the kidnapped little girl. In the case of the little girl, the time we actually saw this happen, Vasher made the little girl repeat a phrase, presumably a Command, which caused her own BioChromatic aura to flicker (617-618). Vasher didn't appear to do anything beyond simply telling the girl the Command. Quote for fun: “Child,” he said. “I’m going to say some words to you. I want you to repeat them. Repeat them, and mean them.” The girl regarded him absently, nodding slightly. He glanced at Vivenna. “Back away.” She opened her mouth to object, but thought better of it. She stepped back out of earshot. Fortunately, Vasher was near a lit street lamp, so she could see him well. He spoke to the little girl, and she spoke back to him. After opening the cage, Vivenna had taken the Breath back from the thread. She hadn’t stowed it somewhere else. And, with the extra awareness she had, she thought she saw something. The girl’s BioChromatic aura--the normal one that all people had--flickered just slightly." To reiterate, Vasher says "'I can make you [forget] [...] I know the Commands,'" as you yourself quote, not "I can take them from you," and we see that it's a voluntary, self-done process which doesn't appear to necessarily involve another person. -End quote war. Yeah, the kingdom that also knew nothing about how BioChroma actually worked. You're insistence on using their terminology was a bit irritating. But how would Endowment do that? S/he takes out enough juice to give a corpse 90% sentience all by its lonesome (remember that we're not allowed to give that corpse a boosted Cognitive aspect from the Awakener), but somehow leaves so much left in the Breath-giver that Drabs are still essentially the same? As for proportionality, I was simply suggesting that even a mismatched Breath at nearly full soul-power should be enough to make a rope twitch. Soles at the ready for consumption! Ah, thank you for clarifying your new definition. I don't think Awakened objects go particularly out of their way to avoid being cut, by the way. There's probably more evidence for my interpretation than for yours, but I digress. As for the specific issue of my blatant reinterpretation of Brandon's annotation, you have to agree that my version of the explanation is not the kind of thing he would want to have written out in full, especially since it raises so many more questions than it answers for anyone who doesn't have a fairly full grasp of Realmatics. Because it does not require even the slightest act of will to accomplish. We see in Mistborn, both with Allomancers and Feruchemists, that things like Health, Strength, and Senses can just be turned up or down and maintained without any mental strain. Allomancers can even burn pewter while sleeping! As you yourself suggested, and I agree with, this is probably the result of simply opening the tap a bit wider in the Spiritual realm for those attributes for that individual. Moving you're fingers in a specific way, however, is not a thought-less task. Tired, exceptionally young, ill, drunk, or otherwise hindered people can all attest to that. Even basic grasping and holding requires a certain effort, especially with a struggling target (try to apply flea medication to a cat someday). The more complex a task gets, the more improbable that it could be handled by a completely mindless object. Okay, I'll shift the italics over. You don't react to disease. Your bodies immune responses, by and large, take place without your conscious intervention or the necessity for intelligent guidance on your mind's part. That's a strange accusation. I'll just point you one post up to where I quote your Nightblood quotes. Contest away. Ouch. That's a thorough definition. Even broader than what you had in mind initially, I'll guess. Very well. I amend my initial criticism: Explaining Breath's ability to carry out Commands as some inherent "instinct" which these Breaths carry over is still an unwarranted and unnecessary breach of the Cognitive realm. You're definition also lacks any and all explanation for how Breaths can come to decisions. This entire discussion started because you pulled a quote of Breaths "interpreting" commands and "deciding" things. Are instincts really up to the task of deciding what instincts to apply where? Even if we decide that Breaths are actually programmed with specific sets of "instincts" (like Vasher's tap-sensitive rope) by their Awakener, there remains the question of how these instincts are programmed in and where exactly they come from. Do Breaths, therefore, include all of the instincts of their original holder? Will the Breath of a handless man be capable of "hold things?" Will a Drab suddenly lose all of their instincts upon giving up their Breaths, or do they somehow still get to keep those? If you decide that instincts are really the way to go, these are the kind of questions that you'll need to answer. He also made it so that Bendalloy and Cadmium bubbles don't microwave people due to the Doppler effect, which sure would have been an interesting limitation on their use. Brandon likes limitations when they spur creativity, not when they stunt it (this is a stunting case, by the way). Also, I would still like an answer on how your infinitely robust instincts are different from thought proper, and how that fails to compromise the existence of the Cognitive realm. I thought you saw Awakened objects as having a constant perfect access to the minds of their users? If so, then they should just hold whatever is appropriate for the situation. Even if they can't all read minds (as I suspect), a fully-capable being should still be able to "instinctively" read context clues and hold what is most appropriate to hold (a cup of water on a hot day, the enemy during a fight, etc.) Instead, we see that "hold things" is actually fairly stupid, just holding whatever is closest, (pg 575, 253, 449). 449 actually has a straight description: "If you do it right, the rope will grab whatever is closest." This up to and including trying to grab multiple things at once (575). Vasher (past-master of Awakening) would sure have preferred if that rope had grabbed the servant's neck, but it grabbed his arm instead (253). This is very wasteful and sub-optimal if we're investing almost-whole human instincts, honed over millennia, into these objects. A partial Cognitive aspect, on the other hand... It's worth discussing (purely Cognitive beings, spren, hemalurgy, relationship between Spiritual energy and Cognitive complexity).

The reason why sciency folks don't stress the difference between theory and fact is that non-sciency folk tend to vastly underestimate the reliability of any "mere" theory. The theory of relativity has been tested and retested from day one with nary a flaw to be found. Within it's scope of application, there are no inconsistencies and it's predictive power is unimpeachable. It has a few convivial disputes with those quantum fellows on the fringes, but the core is sound, and resolving those disputes is what string theory and loop quantum gravity are being developed for. The odds of relativity turning out to be fundamentally flawed are on par with those of the Earth actually being flat all along. Sciency folks don't call relativity a fact because it is still technically falsifiable, not because they lack confidence in it. (Sorry, rant about non-sciency folks underestimating science because it has the honesty to acknowledge when it's technically possible for a theory to be wrong).

Messy because it has memory and thought and context-sensitive action crossing boundaries and being in one realm or another at different times for different reasons. And I still dislike your insistence on using the word "soul" to refer to Breaths. Yes, we don't know how large a chunk it is, so I suppose I wasn't right to assert that it was small. Still, we have Drabs retaining a large amount of their efficacy despite being Drab and Awakeners not simply "doubling-up" every few Breaths they get. Also, you would think that a Breath nearly as powerful as a full soul would be enough to power a piece of rope without needing 99 of its closest friends to help out. So the "unnecessary-ness," once again, flows to our different conceptions of how Commands function. Senses is odd, actually. Obviously real people need their sense-organs to sense the majority of their environment, but I suppose that Awakened objects rely entirely upon Spiritual cues. I will eat my shoes if it involves removing a soul. Read the descriptions we have on TES. It's all about creating a fully functional new soul and sticking it into an empty shell. I suppose I'm getting old and forgetful. Would you mind re-quoting those sources that actually support emotional memory, explaining how exactly they support it, and above all clearly stating what you're current definition of "emotional memory" is? Here's what he would have had to write if Awakening works as I theorize and he wanted to talk about it: "This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the partial Cognitive aspect that was copied over from Sharshara into Nightblood at the moment of Shashara's Awakening of him was insufficient to truly grasp and permute the meaning of "evil" in the over-reaching "Destroy evil" Vocalization which Sharshara also embedded in Nightbloods new Cognitive aspect. This partial of copying of Sharshara's mind then interpreted that it could best accomplish it's task to "Destroy evil" though using it's heightened Spiritual sensitivity to gauge the personalities and intentions of those who touched Nightblood..." So essentially: "the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided" Vs. "the partial Cognitive aspect that was copied over from Sharshara into Nightblood at the moment of Shashara's Awakening of him was insufficient to truly grasp and permute the meaning of "evil" in the over-reaching "Destroy evil" Vocalization which Sharshara also embedded in Nightbloods new Cognitive aspect. This partial of copying of Sharshara's mind then interpreted" Perhaps I was unnecessarily verbose or it could be slimmed down, but, especially since Brandon wants to keep it unnecessary to understand the Cosmere as a whole and Realmatics in particular, and he was focusing on something else at the time of writing, I don't think it's an unbelievable leap for Brandon to just have simplified it. See my above request for you to provide that evidence all in one place. Also, that "trouble" primarily consists of me rejecting that implication as nonsensical for various reasons, foremost because of its unnecessary complications of the magic system and implications about the necessary messiness of the structure of the Cosmere. Curing disease is dirt simple for Breaths. Just pump up the "immune system" stat and call it a day. Seeing colors in more detail is just heightened perception and falls under the same category. And all of this also takes place in an already functioning human with an intact Cognitive aspect, so even if it was Cognitively demanding it would have little to do with the Breaths providing the Cognition. Fair enough. I should have been more thoughtful in my descriptions, but that's not really what I meant. You don't "react" to disease and I've already discussed purely Spiritual interactions being real things, such as Connection. Nightblood sounds more like a psychopathic manchild than a being of pure instinct. Almost as if his mind is simply stunted and such a complex and nuanced task as "destroy evil" is to much for him? To wrap up my thoughts about "emotional instincts," I think you're simply reaching. As I've already said, everything can be boiled down to "instincts" if you simplify your description of it enough. But what's the instinct to "hold when thrown?" Is that a human instinct that the "soul" is simply acting on? I didn't know that I instinctually held onto trees whenever I was thrown at them, and then never let go. Besides seeming unnecessary and overly-simplistic, this talk of "instincts" also vastly limits the capabilities of Awakening if the complexity and nuance of Commands is limited more by some unknown "instinct limitation" on Breaths than on the imagination of the Awakener. Not to call yet another "the author wouldn't do that," but I don't think Brandon would want to limit the magic system that severely. And if you tell me that there's no effective limit to what "instincts" can accomplish, then what's the limit on how you define instincts, and how are they then truly different from thought? We also have the question of why such a thorough Visualization component is necessary if Breaths can "instinctively" know how to carry out a Command. If you tell a person to "hold things," you don't have to then draw them a picture of how things can be held. If Breaths are really these nearly-complete instinctive human souls, then they shouldn't need such hand-holding. The existence of almost purely Cognitive beings merely shadowed in the Physical realm suggests that Physical aspects aren't all-important. P.S. Sorry, not as full a set of replies as I could have made, running out of time just now.