Kurkistan

It has come, as I once predicted: Romance Discussion has come to our beloved forums. . . And our once-peaceful world shall never be the same. . .

Yes and no. No in the case where it's someone who lost their arm relatively recently, whose Cognitive aspect still includes them having both arms. In that case, you can just do some Physical/Spiritual stuff and mostly leave the Cognitive alone. Yes in the case where you can only do it temporarily, though it's more "yo, given my artificial state of health which includes having two arms, I'm 'healed' due to magical circumstances" than "yo I'm healed" since the amputee's sense of what it is to be "healed" does not naturally include the second arm. Temporary Resealing goes "against the grain" so far as the real Cognitive aspect of the target goes, while the permanent variety is in line with it. So far as changing the Cognitive aspect (and pouring on the juice to make it so, as well as some changes to the Spiritual as well), it's also a tad more complicated than that, at least by my model. It's not really a change, more a temporary overlay or reinterpretation of the existing Cognitive aspect whose existence is acknowledged to be an unnatural imposition. Which imposition is then burned off over time due to the will of living beings to self-actualize their identities. Yeah, I have a thread. It was long. Resealing could be slightly different from regular Forging, theoretically, but, if it is just Forging, then that's how I think it'll work.

May Honor help us all, he's back. . .

@Thought: Okay, as you said, we're winding down, so I'll try to be brief so we can finish up (relatively) quickly. Romanticism: I know you like your big fancy words, Thought, but you really have to admit that you're reaching here. Yes, technically Realmatics could be based on the Power of Love or some such, but it probably isn't, and that comment was contextualized by an entire book (an entire set of books, if you take all the Cosmere books together) that are fairly scientific in tone whenever it comes down to the bare-bones of the magic systems. Guts: Experts in the relative sense, with our gut calls worth more than the results of flipping a coin. "Meant to be": Or it was referring to its still-present Cognitive concepiton as stained glass, not an active desire to go from being regular glass to being stained (since it does and always has considered itself stained glass). As I've said. Passivity: If you have a problem with "passivity", then how about "reactive" or "unyeilding"? The key is that it won't go out and mow the lawn itself, but it will certainly yell at the neighbor kid if he does it wrong. "And": Or This brevity isn't going to last, is it? While it's unclear exactly what Shai's stamps were comparing against (Ashraven's soul, his bodies soul, the souls of those who knew him?) we do know that Ashraven's soul wasn't "wiped clean"; at worst it's inaccessible, having "passed on", but there is an afterlife in the Cosmere, so destroying a bit of gray matter won't destroy a soul in actuality. You're quite a one to talk about the level of detail required being too much . Shai herself says that she's going for the details, when talking to Gaotona, and just hopes to get enough of them right that it'll stick. So sure, Forgeries work on a generalized level, but their basic components are rather specific. The implausibility was such that the stamp would only have held for a few seconds, as opposed to holding into perpetuity. I'd say that's enough of a dividing line. Both the door and the bed were wooden objects theoretically susceptible to insects, so that's enough to get the foot in the door, I think. We have every reason to believe that change is limited to one direction naturally. People who get their arms chopped off or die of infectious diseases can still be Healed back to perfect health. Their Cognitive aspects do nothing to help them without magic, though. The case you cite with Jasnah necessarily involves the use of magic. I'm fine with Physical changes bleeding into the Cognitive, with time (though it could still be a primarily Cog-Cog interaction, with the Cognitive perception of different locations being what does the trick) but that gives us no reason to think that they are glued together. What you're saying is as if claiming that a man pushing a boulder has the man and the boulder move the same way, so obviously the man must move when the boulder does. Or Forgery can change Cognitive aspects with relative ease, as I've held all along. This is just such a large departure from our current models of Realmatics. Two Cognitive aspsects? When everything we know of says it's just one? Why? Why can we not say that Cognitive aspects simply have inertia, that "how others see you" and even "how you see yourself" simply enacts gradual change upon a singular Cognitive aspect? If you have Crazy Joe who thinks (a perfectly intact) Bill has only one arm, do we really need to split off a bit of Bill's Cognitive aspect to account for this? Or can we just leave that perception nested into Joe's thoughts, with Bill's Cognitive aspect acknowledging and shrugging it off? I'd like to note that you're rather misinterpreting the scope of my "Forms" comment. That was specifically in reply to your point about needing to invent "an entire history" for a bar of gold, instead of it being relatively easy. All that aside, though: I'm perfectly fine with having to know histories (and core identities...) for target objects, to varying degrees. Remember that Shai was trying very implausible and very fundamental changes to her prison's walls: she needed the oomph of accurate and plausible history on several levels. "The universe" will accept a bar of gold being adulterated relatively easily, but will need a darn good explanation for why this Forger's cell was made out of coal. I forget exactly why I ought to be disagreeing with a "narrative flow" model. Would you care to remind me? You discount changing specific events as important, I suppose, but the why eludes me. I see it as entirely natural that you would reshape an object's "narrative flow" by changing specific facts about its past to change the flow of its narrative. Really, "far too implausible"? You have people who took the time to build a cell out of 44 different kinds of stone all backed up by a cage of some (presumably very rare) unForgeable metal, but it's implausible for them to be sure to check that the thing doesn't have prisoner-sized hole in it? I think you may have misread me, but I'm not talking about Forging a wall/chain such that it was quality-checked so religiously. Do this in real life with real people as a matter of course. You don't need to pay constant attention: Check Forger-bound walls/chains when you first get them, then check them again when you're about to use them to contain a Forger, then check them again when you put them on. Easy as pie. Do this in real life as a matter of course and you simply win, if Forging holds to the Thought Model. To reiterate, I'm not sure where you're getting "dueling Forgers" from my post, but it's not there on purpose. You're reaching here, Thought. A bed that collapses into a pit in the when you look at it wrong is not a functional bed in any reasonable sense of the word. We also have the rotten door to the Emperor's personal chambers (Purpose: Keep people out) that can be kicked down by a diminutive scholar. Despite the Forging not sticking, it did hold for a moment, which shouldn't happen at all for a "turn this into dust" type of stamp. EDIT: Also, the bed was very rickety: Just before Zu comes in, Shai is exhausted and we get this snippet: "If she could just sleep for a few hours. Just a few . . . No. I can’t use the bed anyway. Curling up on the floor sounded wonderful, however." So even bitsy little Shai couldn't have used the bed safely. If she had intentionally Forged it to the point of being technically usable, but fragile in the case of ill-use, then she would have known that she'd be perfectly safe using it normally. That safety would be a necessary part of the magic system. So this is more of a case of a glass jaw that shatters when you try to swallow, not just when you get punched. EDIT 2: I think this might actually mean that I "win". Huh. Actually, I'd just say the frame is distinct from the mattress. They are easily separable in both the physical and mental sense. "Perfectly usable". Yeah. "Highly implausible". That's a bit unnice. Wait, why couldn't she have theoretically Forged the mattress? After all, the stuffing didn't all fall out into the pit in the floor, and a very careful user could have used it as a mattress, so it still had its "purpose". Also, it's not a modern box spring. It's probably linen with some stuffing, and she clearly got away with cutting it, so it couldn't have been too loud. I'll bring your attention back to pit-floor-cell and all-one-rock-which-rock-is-coal-Forger-cell. That will not happen. It is noticeable. I'm refuse to believe that anyone is that incompetent, and so any model of Forgery which demands that a highly security-conscious organization with nearly infinite resources--who knows they'll be holding a Forger--be so insanely and destructively unobservant is unacceptable to me.

"'The magician cast forth his powerful magic, but despite the puissance of his magic and his magic knife he was running out of magic." Upvote for that line alone.

Specifically, allomancers have a tad more Preservation poking out than muggles, allowing them to burn metals and so draw Investiture from Preservation. The MAG models Nicrosil as essentially storing raw power, so that suggests that it store Investiture-as-power rather than the "Innate Investiture" that allomancers have an excess of.

Ah, sorry, I wasn't trying to talk about a system-wide focus. I guess I'll just go with resonance, then.

I don't quite think. If Breaths are Endowment's Investiture, I would argue that they are from him/her in only the same way that Preservation's power is in Scadrians. Brandon describes Returned as "consuming" Breath, also, so that kind of nixes anything besides Returned being the instruments of their own destruction.

Nice quote-bank. I find this talk of "foci" to be odd, though. It's still in the final draft, but is only ever mentioned those two times in the prologue from Vasher's POV. We literally get no other mention of needing or wanting a "focus" for Awakening after that chapter. I suppose it could be a high-level, little-known fact abot BioChroma. Perhaps the body part makes it easier to attune the Breath from the Awakener to the target object. I wouldn't be shocked if it was just an accidental artifact of earlier drafts, though.

What makes you think Returned give up Breaths to Endowment? Lightsong's POV shows him to be weaker just before he needs to eat his weekly child sacrifice, so that suggests rather strongly to us that Returned actually use Breath to fuel their bodies--as they don't need any other kind of sustenance. For Nightblood, he only uses Breaths when he's actually used, and draws upon his wielder then. I think he just sits pretty on his normal investment the rest of the time, similarly to a Lifeless. Recall that Brandon has said that there is a link between the black smoke shardblades cause when they soul-kill someone and Nightblood's black smoke: both are likely the result of destroying and/or damaging souls (or at least parts of them).

Welcome to the forums. If you like the MAG, we're going to be starting up a play-by-post section of the RP forum sometime soonishish. I surmise that it'll will coincide with Crafty's release of the new supplements.

I don't think it was spelled out, but I assume it was because it wasn't "manifest": That would also explain why Nalizar was worthless for the battle: he had to wait for the acid to dry before he could use his powers, or risk dying.

Nice quote find (though how in the name of all that is Cosmerical did you find it?). Hm. I'd guess that Lifeless skimp by on this one because they're "sticky" and their Breaths cannot be recovered. That gives a bit of a clue as to how Brandon might justify this: Perhaps it's the case that Breaths aren't really meant to be kept in anything but fauna, and so are so loosely anchored that they can both be recovered by their Awakener and be tugged loose by Cosmic Tides of Force and Randomness as they're already tenuous holds on non-lifeform objects weaken over time. Yeah, I've historically categorized that one as "expending the capital": So Nightblood and Returned actually consume the core of the Breath itself (but only when active, in Nightblood's case) and so get a lot more power each time, but at the cost of destroying the Breath.

I don't think so, but, either way, I think we're already well beyond the "some energy has to be either generated or recovered" threshold at this point.

Oh yeah, sure, they can vary in power. It may even be the case that they strengthen and weaken when they're a proper part of a human soul. But they seem to "lock down" when you use them for Awakening, or at least they last for quite a long while. The Breaths keeping Kalad's Phantom's from falling apart lasted for three centuries. That would suggest that they aren't using their "capital" when you use them for Awakening, at least to a certain extent. Nightblood was made during the Manywar (also three centuries) and he's still kicking. The only expiration date we're given for Lifeless is their ichor alcohol being kept fresh and their bodies kept in good condition, so I would hazard that they can last for longer than usual as a matter of course. If Breath can keep piles of bones together for long enough to fade into legend, that suggests that they either have a near-infinite well of power or they're managing to replenish/reuse a finite well. I'd guess the later.

But she was in her beggar persona at the time, so didn't have the skill. I suppose she could have popped it off for a bit (though that isn't mentioned in the text), but she would have had to hide somewhere (with a priceless horse in tow) long enough to craft the stamp, and be vulnerable without beggar!Shai's disguised appearance or street-smarts/paranoia during that time.

I mean that you can keep getting power from them indefinitely without "draining" them. This is all tied up in some larger theoretical commitments I have, but I essentially think that Breaths hold, say, 100 units of power and normally pay off an "interest" of 10%: this interest goes into fueling most BioChroma, then. As opposed to Breaths providing some link to mooch off of Endowment. When you animate a Lifeless with a single Breath, that one Breath continues to provide power indefinitely, never depleting. So that Breath's power is "self-replenishing". Though, in light of Brandon's comment about Allomancy "using" Preservation's power like a mill uses water, I suppose you could have an alternate model where Breaths don't generate new energy, but just use the "flow" of their energy to achieve some free incidental results. Either way, so far as practical concerns go, self-replenishing. Where with stormlight you have 100 units to use, you use them, their gone--so far as you're concerned, at least--Breath can give you a solid stream of 10 units per second for the foreseeable future. OT: I EDITed in a substantive reply back on the Space-Forging thread. Sorry again for misreading you so grossly.

I think Breath is unique in that it's self-replenishing in the short term, so it seems that would make it quite different from stormlight.

Okay, now I feel sheepish. It may amuse you to know that I have just now had to email somebody to apologize for poor reading comprehension in another context. I apologize for glossing over your post, which I hadn't even realized I was doing until just now. I would downvote myself, but I can't do that. I'm rather ashamed at this point. EDIT: Though I do think you are still wrong, for other reasons I hadn't considered in my somewhat hasty reply. Shai Forged Zu's horse into being a nag immediately after leaving the palace, spending several days as a beggar with the horse in nag-form. That suggests that her fifth seal was always the one for nagification. She was able to use it even after her improvisation because she intimidated the Bloodsealer, but it seems that she was always planning on a beggar-nag duo hiding out in the underground immediately after leaving the palace.

Wait, what makes you think that the stamp Shai uses on the door is new? It says straight-out that's its the same one. So she did reuse Stamp A. Recall that though our terminology has had us calling the marks soulstamps leave behind "stamps", the book actually calls them seals, and they are formed by using a stamp to press some organic ink to an object. The stamp itself is always left perfectly whole after each application. As for Shai not making a new stamp for the door: First of all, I think she was still somewhat undecided on whether to apply the Emperor's stamp at all, at least intellectually, so preparing a "break down the Emperor's door" stamp would be a bit too much of a commitment. She also might have lacked on time a bit. The urn and blouse could have conceivably been used for a pure escape as well as for infiltration, and so were justifiable. On top of that, we see that a new stamp isn't really necessary for the door. Shai wants to kick down a door, and knows that her bed stamp will hold for a few seconds. There's no hesitation and no moment of "I hope this works". She knows it will. So why bother writing up a specific stamp for that door if she doesn't have to?

There's likely a way to hack in an energy source when you get past MaiPon's range, so all is not completely lost.

Thou hast angered the Quote Gods, for Phantom is their Avatar on this Internet Forum.

I may have overstated my case (I've always been fond of the Assuredness Movment, myself), but it's just one of those things. As a reader, you know about Kaladin talking to Syl like a crazy person, you know that all Radiants get spren, and you know that Dalinar doesn't know about any of this; so you see a part where Dalinar is all confuddled and "who's she talking to?" and the rather obvious conclusion you're supposed to come to, as a reader, is that she's talking to her spren and poor Dalinar just doesn't know enough to figure that out himself. Not that she's on Radiant-radio.

Though I'm glad you're on our team this time, Thought, Phantom was specifically referring to breaking up the object itself, not breaking its seal.

I would hazard yes, given that Nightblood seems to get all of his juice from Breath, not from actively drawing on Endowment. BioChroma as a whole seems to be fairly cut off from its parent Shard, in that Breath appear to act like self-replenishing energy packets.