Kurkistan

There's handwaving some impacts of relativity upon simultaneity and then there's throwing it out the window. Breaking light speed in real, un-weirdified space is the later, and I doubt Brandon will do it.

*Mistborn Spoilers* Or he's just sensitive to such things, be it through birth or training. Much like a sufficiently strong Seeker can presumably sense the Well without having any other special attributes.

*Mistborn Spoilers* Such "resonance" doesn't seem limited to Roshar, actually. Whenever Ruin shows up "in the flesh" to a spike-recipient, anyone in the area who's been spiked can see him, suggesting that spike-recipients are similarly "resonating" with Ruin.

It depends heavily on if Forgeries really last when you've functionally separated/destroyed the target object. I'd say no, I don't think. If we follow Brandon's rule of "don't break the economy unless you really want to," then Forging like you suggest would allow us to mine infinite gold by turning clay pots into gold, then melting them down and selling them as coins. Or, in a stronger parallel, Forging a treasury chest into being full of coins, then distributing those coins.

But aren't those all "all together now" stamps that work towards the same end goal, a singular change to the object? Though I now realize I didn't specify, I was trying to talk about Forging's that "conflict" with each other, or a the very least were not designed from the beginning to work together.

Forging is a bit unknown to me in terms of how much Investiture it involves. On the one hand, it's a very flexible system. On the other, it's exceptionally wimpy and only "flexible" within certain highly restrictive bounds. Either way, if we can stuff 1,000 Breaths into a sword, I think we could fit two stamps on a door. In that case, I think Shai may be thinking of the Bloodseal as a variety of normal stamp (what with her mistaken belief that they're the same system), which could indicate that you are only allowed to have one stamp on an object at a time in real Forging.

Ah, I had forgotten. Thank you. That quote does seem to suggest a more magical reason why she couldn't Forge it, but I would note that there still exists the possibility that the Bloodsealing wasn't "directly" interfering with Forging. An unlikely possibility and not one I subscribe to at the moment, but still there.

From what I know of the magics, she could have Forged it, but the blood-ward seemed to operate like a deadman switch in that I think the Bloodsealer would have known if it was tampered with/wiped out of existence.

Oh, I reached that point long ago (moment of birth, if you must know) At the very least, we're both developing our models much more thoroughly than they would have been if they just sat half-formed in our brains.

In answer to your one point of positive input, Shardlet, it's stated in-book that they are afraid of chalklings riding fallen trees to get to other islands.

Just a fair warning that I'm going to take a day or two to reply to this. That last reply took it out of me. Have no fear, though, I will show you the many ways you are wrong soon enough.

Ah, interesting tidbit.

This is in the context of an ongoing discussion with Thought about the validity of citing intuitions when discussing theories. Experts in a relative sense. Also, Atium+Lerasium nuke?

Okay then. I think you're wrong, and it's just plain IQ, as has been argued quite thoroughly in this thread, but I suppose that's that.

So this is revenge! So because Shai explicitely rejects her musing as inaccurate and over-poetic, we have reason to accept that very poetic musing? I can understand that we have reason to accept everything else she says in view of this self-awareness, but we should probably include her dismissal of her poetic musings in that "probably worth listening to" category. Sure, Realmatics can be poetic. Our best Realmatic Philosopher saying it isn't is a good reason not to think it is, though. Or at the very worst leaves us neutral. It's not exactly compelling evidence. By the love of Grayskull man, you're saying my point. That was the entirety of my argument in favor of gut feelings on the other thread. To go even more off topic, the thrust of my argument was that we are the experts on Realmatics, and so our intuitions are worth paying attention to. *cries in a corner* So far as Shai and her gut goes, I would be fine with this if Shai did not immediately reject her musings. They're not even framed as intuitions, and she goes on to not credit them for the remainder of the book. I'm fine with trusting Shai's expertise (in general), but you should too, and her expertise said her poetry was wrong. If the Noble laureate biologist has a musing about rabbits evolving to be fluffy because they wanted to be cuddled, we're quite right to may more attention to the part where he laughs at himself directly afterwards. Now you could try to frame this as Shai's musings actually being a hint from Brandon, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax. Is the "meant to be" part the second time you say she ascribes the window a desire? Because I don't read it as such. Ah, sorry for accusing you of being positive . I discuss this further below, but I think a passive force is just what we need, seeing as Cognitive Identities need the help of magic systems if they're ever to impose themselves on Physical forms. So yes, the Identity is rather passive, is a case of an object "seeing itself" as something, but being incapable of action. Until you pour on some Investiture and the magic happens. And/or we're just getting an outline of the magic system, showing how complex it is and how important properly understanding and modifying the core history and identity of an object is for a successful stamp. "If it's not recorded, it's not history" is a bit quibbly, Thought. Okay, "personal history". It was recorded by the Emperor's soul and/or Cogntive aspect. It happened and it had important, long-lasting impacts on the Emperor. Just because he might not consciously hark back to his brother's death and regional flag every time he considers what his favorite color is doesn't mean that they weren't the reason he likes green, and I have no problem with some aspect of the Emperor recording/remembering this. As for the rest, it's all based on a "desire based" conception of Forging that I find inaccurate, so I'll just focus on the broader points at other places in this reply. Perhaps I'm missing some deeper subtlety, and if so, please forgive me, but I find this line of argumentation unpersuasive. Shai changes Cognitive/Spiritual aspects and give a nice dose of Investiture to make things go smoothly, I would imagine. Cognitive aspects don't rearrange the Physical because they simply lack the power to do so, but that does not mean that they just "change sufficiently in the cognitive realm to easily and immediately accept and incorporate physical changes" without a fight. The Cognitive aspects sticks around for awhile, doggedly insisting that an object ought to be other than it is. We know this is how things work: When you magically Heal someone, you are "healing back to the form of yourself; that you know yourself as, as the world knows you as." Despite the fact that your body currently lacks a certain number of fingers, or a brain, or a body (as with Miles) in the Physical, it's Cognitive Identity is still whole. That's just how things work. Even an amputatee without access to magical healing will still conceive of himself as whole for at least some period of time. This doesn't mean that his body isn't, in actuality, missing a limb, nor does it mean that he and those around him do not know this, at least intellectually. It does, however, mean that his Cognitive Identity is still that of a limbed man. This conception of health is not sufficient to regrow a limb, though, and so the limb does not grow back. It's the same exact thing with Shai's window. It's Identity is as a stained glass window, but it's Physical form does not match up to that Identity. Because wishing can't make things so, the window's Cognitive aspect has neither the power nor the impetus to impose the "proper" Identity on the window. It just doesn't have the oomph. Still quite simple. But then Forging is kind enough to come along and give us some oomph. Now the (modified by the Forgery, to some extent) Cognitive aspect/Identity is licensed to impose itself on the window's Physical form. Ta da. The window's period of being regular glass was not an issue because its Identity did not incorporate or accept this part of its history as rightly part of its self. Just as a man who loses an arm will still refuse to conceive of himself as de-limbed. It's not a matter of dueling Identities fighting it out in the Cognitive, but of an improper Physical aspect slowly corrupting a pure Cognitive Identity into being other than it was. With the window, the Cognitive had managed to hold out for long enough to still see itself as stained glass by the time Shai came along to rescue it. As for the emperor seeing himself as emperor: your point? I said it was very important, not the only thing that mattered at all. You can't just stick a random soul in there and say "oh, by the way, you're an emperor" and then have that be enough to get it accepted. Just as Shai couldn't reasonably be expected remake her window into a full-scale replica of the Rose Window and justify it by saying, "well, the most important thing is that it's still stained glass." That's rather interesting, but wrong, I think. Gaotona and Shai make a point of the fact that she has the technical skill and know-how to have painted that mural perfectly, all by herself, if she'd just been given some paint and brushes. Having a general idea of it doesn't seem to cut it. I may have to go all Formic on you here. Just off the top of my head as regards to the "desk vs. mural" debate, I would say that Shai's mural was actually an original work, never before seen. Neither she nor "the universe" had any idea what it would look like; neither had anything to copy off of. An attempt to access some "this artist's style" Form would probably result in some horrid mess, rather than artistry. So Shai needed to get a bit procedural. However, she/the universe knows a bit more about creating and/or maintaining more "generic" items, so Shai needn't provide nearly as much of the "how". So throw in some procedural generation in order to get your intended effects. I've been saying that Shai can go into as much or little detail as she wants to, and clearly such foundational events and Ashraven's reactions to them are the kind that require quite a lot of detail, if she wants to make anything but a homunculus. I say foundations of core identity, you say desires. Ball's in your court. No, she actually doesn't necessarily indicate this. Forms, my dear foe, Forms! "A plausible history" could very well be as simple as the desk's "plausible history" of "someone took care of it"; "Bill the unscrupulous treasurer adulterated this bar of gold" ought to work just as well, I think. A tad more than a switch to flip, but not by much. I'll refer you to the point later in my previous reply where I proposed a fool-proof anti-Forger cell: Just pay attention very very carefully as a matter of course, and you win. Gaotona could have rolled in with some normal chains in a normal room and said "these chains have just been delivered under armed guard from a master smith, inspected by hand by 3 dozen other master smiths and the entire government, and is now being attached to you by my own hand with 5 loyal men watching to make sure I do it right. And we followed similar procedures with everything in this cell. Now you have fun for the next year, I have some tanning to do." You can and will go the extra mile with Forgers if you know you'll be holding one for any amount of time, and I think it's reasonable to say that Shai's captors in TES would have done the best anyone could have. No, not really. That thing flat-out collapsed when evil-Striker hit it, falling into a pit in the floor, no less. I doubt Shai engineered it with anything but a hair trigger: her "rot" Forgery was strong enough to let her knock down a door that she temporarily whammied with the same stamp. Shaizan is supposed to be a complete, thorough, and infinitely useful and real alternate personality for Shai. You have to account for these things. Just as Shai could have made the Emperor a robot if she chose not to go into all the details, I'm sure she could have made Shaizan less complex if she had so desired. Actually, reading the passage, she Forged the bed frame and slashed the mattress: two separate objects. If you insist, I'll just say that she murdered the bed frame, and call it a day. I imagine that slashing the mattress with a knife was just easier than messing around with Forgery, while hacking at the bed frame to achieve a similar effect to her stamp would have been somewhat more difficult/obvious. She slashed the mattress, Forged the bed frame. Easier to slash than Forge a history where she slashed it, pure and simple. So far as windows knowing windows and lead gold: Forms, again. I'm not sure you can justify your teleological approach from that, though given bed frame (and floor, and door, actually, even if that last one didn't stick) murder that has already been committed with Forgery. There is a pit in Shai's floor, under her bed. She Forged it there, and it stuck. Would you put a prisoner in a pit-floor room? Would you let a pit-floor room keep being pit-floored at all, even in a random part of the palace? No, you wouldn't. That pit-floor would not have been allowed to continue to exist, would have "become a problem" in any world. If things were as easy as "would it become a problem?", you wouldn't need 44 types of rock to keep a Forger imprisoned. Let's go back to the beginning, actually: Shai could have Forged her cell such that it was made out of coal. She was daunted by how hard it would be, and probably needed more information than she ever would have been able to access, but she could have done it. She could have made it such that the palace had a "Forger cell" that they'd just put a Forger into which was made out of all one rock, with that rock being coal. To that I say "no", if we're to accept your model. That's the kind of thing you notice. I've already offered a more plausible explanation for the mattress, so I think we should hold off on using yours as any kind of evidence for the time being. Okay, good to get that cleared up.

How dare thou do other than thine sitely duty! As long as their in the pipeline somewhere. I had a weird issue with my messenger app a few months back, what with it disappearing temporarily, and people have asked me about the FAQ thread, so had a mild concern that I just wasn't being heard. Good luck with your current workload, we'll still be here when your plate is a bit less overflowing

Thanks.

I thought I was following you for the first paragraph, then you come to your "It seems that the difference in passage of time is merely perceptional" conclusion out of left field, so far as I can see. Recall that, as you said, magnitude shouldn't be changed by exiting the bubble. So if you have a relatively quiet conversation from people facing away from their dupes, then make it sound like a very quiet squeak/wheeze accompanied by a loud cough, it could well be overlooked. EDIT: Here's the quote, for reference (chapter 2): I suppose it leaves open the door that it was all "condensed", actually. Hm. I don't like that. This requires thought. As a fallback position, I hereby prepare the excuse that the edge of the bubble captures sound, as I do not recall Wayne ever hearing anything outside of his bubble, nor Miles hearing the low-frequency thunder of approaching police. --- Btw, I don't there's no reason beyond the convenient for light not being affected by time bubbles. It's all handwavium by Word of Peter. I'm sure we've got some ex-post-factor Realmatic pretzels to justify it by now, but light not being affected is not intrinsic to the operation of time bubbles, and so should not be taken as a clue to their nature. Also, deflection could well be a separate issue, so no need to wrap up our explanation of sounds into solving it. Now, to wrap up our explanation of sounds into deflection, it could well be the case that sound waves are similarly "jostled" when they leave a time bubble, resulting in random scattering and magnitude/frequency changes, perhaps.

1) Honor's "still bound by some rules" line is in reference to choosing champions to decide the fate of a war, so I would hazard that he's not just speaking in riddles, but that, in fact, Odium can and will lose if he picks a champion and Honor's champion defeats him. 2) We know that Splinters are "less physical, more cognitive and spiritual", and they are what you get when you splinter a Shard, so it seems that Shards are also primarily a mix of Cognitive and Spiritual, or at least have equal parts Cog/Spirit, assuming their Physical component isn't associated with its Splinters, for some reason. 3) Your line about rocks perceiving and being perceived could have come out of a textbook (don't worry, I'm working on it ) describing the Cognitive. The Spiritual, it seems, is all about pure ideals. Other than those points, I actually rather like your theory.

Though I haven't discussed bubble-sounds before, I imagine that sound does not share light's immunity to the effects of time bubbles. So the sounds of Wax/Waynes conversation will leave the bubble at an incredibly high frequency (though the same magnitude, I believe) over a relatively short time--a few seconds, at most, and it might not even have traveled all the way to another person by the time you drop the bubble. Throw in a cough to make it sound like all the weird sounds they just heard can be attributed to that violent exhalation and you're golden. I don't think we need appeal to "physics blurs" quite yet. I'm fine with Wayne aging abnormally fast. Reverting everything that happens in the bubble sounds a bit extreme. Yeah, as a rule I'm the guy who you can remember as saying too much about time bubbles. Does the proper quote do away with your perplexity?

Huh? You mean the one where a train that hits a time bubble "doesn't notice"? That's just Cognitive aspects being all Cognitive.

*Must... restrain... self... Aaah, I give up* Thank you Shardlet, but you are a bit off there. Though we can discuss the passage of time as the dividing line on a very basic level, things break down quite severely once frames of reference are introduced. They're quite annoying.

We do now (with a slight shadow of a doubt), actually, since we know Hoid wrote the letter and (I think we know?) they're members of the 17th Shard chasing a man who looks like him.

Yes, not reading all 7 pages is quite understandable . Your input is welcome. Ironically enough, given how much time I've dedicated to it in other threads, I did not really put that much thought into time bubbles for this particular theory. I may well be wrong in my rather blase "this is how fast you move" summary of its effects. In fact, I am wrong, strictly speaking, since I failed to (explicitly, at the very least) account for frame of reference and the passage of time and whatnot. If I were to defend my off-the-cuff description, then, I'd refer you to the fact that "unnatural" changes to Spiritual aspects--ones that violate the normal laws of nature--need a continuous power source to be maintained. Like Lashings stopping after their stormlight runs out. In this case, Wayne isn't being propelled through space at high speeds, fundamentally, but instead has been altered such that his passage through time and space are accelerated. This acceleration is of a higher order than just movement in the Physical--is done in the Spiritual--and is Spiritually unnatural to boot, so is immediately lost when the magic runs out. P.S. Avoid the Great War unless you're a masochist or really want to read a nitpicky argument about BioChroma.

@Isomere Note that Vin could still burn Sazed's metalmind normally, simply sensing another well of power off to the side that she couldn't access. So, whether or not "authorized users" are forced to burn for Feruchemical/Hemalurgical effects, the "allomantic pool" will still be there.