Veil

Except that the roses don't all connect. The big one in the ocean does--six of its lines are shared with the other six symbols. But other than that, I believe the only other direct connections (shared line and not just a line from one hitting the edge of another) are the Shattered Plains rose with the big rose that's half off the page on the left side, and with the little one down in the bottom-left corner, where the tip of Thaylenah is. Also, not all of these roses have 16 lines. The Shattered Plains rose and the Thaylenah rose each have only 14 (and two of those, the near-vertical black lines, are incredibly faint.) The big half-rose on the left also appears to be missing at least one line, but it's harder to tell on that one. It's also possible that an eighth rose would be located at Dawn's Shadow. (Look at Maresia's overlay of the Frostlands map with the Roshar map and follow the black line that starts near the E in "Ocean of Origins", goes through the place where Shallan made landfall, and continues off the map without intersecting any of the visible roses. If you extend that line on the WoK Roshar map, it passes very close to Dawn's Shadow.)

I'm inclined to say the letters thing are just a trick of the light, buuuuuut a slim chance is still a chance. So these are the letters that look distinct to me: On Lines (working clockwise by ray): Aimia (I)* Reshi Isles ® Icewater (All/part of the word) Liafor (F)* Purelake (L) Yulay (A) Tukar Marat ®* Ocean of Origins (S) Southern Depths (SOUTH) *Indicates letters that I'm not confident actually fit the pattern. Between Rays: Shinovar (H)* Alm (M) And this is why I'm not convinced there's a pattern. The H in Shinovar is questionable, but the M in Alm is more distinct than most of the other letters. (Especially the letters on land, since the ones over the ocean/water seem more distinct.) I'm also suspect of the strings of letters (South in Southern Ocean and most/all of Icewater down by the compass rose.) That more than anything makes me think it's a false pattern. But to Gyth and Maresia: I think there's some significance there. I'd noticed the symbol in the corners that matches the one on all the other maps, but I didn't realize the others match the cymatic pattern for Akinah. I don't know what that tells us (unless this map is painted on a ceiling in Akinah? Or the Akinah Oathgate?) But it's something.

Cool, thanks.

I'm 90% sure what I'm "seeing" just comes from the fact that people like seeing patterns in randomness. Also, pixels.

I get the feeling that, while all the orders share the same words for the First Ideal, they all interpret it differently. I'd have to go back and find the exact quotes, but Dalinar and Kaladin had slightly different takes on it. Specifically, Kaladin focuses on the "Strength before weakness" part as meaning that the strong should protect the weak (which fits with his other Ideals.) Could be that whatever order Adolin belongs to (if he is, in fact, a Radiant) interprets "Journey before destination" as being practical/realistic. Don't put the cart before the chull kind of thing. Yes, you want to reach a point where you can act with honor and inspire men to greatness, but what good does it do anyone if you fail before you start because you aren't willing to get your hands dirty? *shrug* I kinda get the feeling that if Adolin is a Radiant, his second Ideal would be something along the lines of, "I will do what needs to be done." (Like killing Sadeas, since Kaladin and Dalinar would both be adamantly against it, but letting him live could easily have doomed him.) That's why I see Adolin as a Dustbringer. They were apparently viewed as practically Voidbringers. Partially because of their Surge of Division, but also maybe because they have a grimmer morality than the other orders. Maybe Releasers (Dustbringers) are anti-Bondsmiths? As in, they undo bonds where Bondsmiths forge them. Or something. Whatever the case, I want to see Adolin go on another dueling spree, this time with the intent to free the spren trapped in all the other Shardblades. (Now the odds of this actually happening are probably pretty slim, but a girl can hope, right?) I'm hoping for Lopen the Willshaper, too. Especially the part where people see them as "capricious, frustrating, unreliable." That, and I want to see Lopen teleporting around scaring the crap out of people for a laugh.

Really? Awesome. Do you happen to have a link to that interview?

Hello! Completely agree with your love of Sanderson and his crazy-fun magitech. Oh, and the spoiler tag is: [ spoiler]Spoiler goes here.[ /spoiler] (But without the spaces.)

*waves* It seems WoR prompted a lot of people to make accounts here--myself included! It was just too epic not to talk about. (Especially considering I finished it something like 40 hours after I got my hands on a copy and had no one around who would comprehend my spastic response to pretty much everything.) And whoo, Warbreaker! Almost done with my reread (seriously, how could I NOT reread it after WoR?) Next up for me is Elantris, because it's been far too long since I read it.

I've been staring at the WoR map of Roshar for too long, I think. I keep seeing things that look like letters in the texture of the map, but considering the clearest "word" (just above "Reshi Sea") somehow looks like "Sylphrena" and "Highspren" simultaneously, I think it's just my mind playing tricks on me. Other observations: --There's a phantom river running from the mountains southwest of Kholinar, down past Karanak, all the way to the Longbrow's Straits. --Aimia looks like a shark about ready to eat Steen. --The texture of the water on this map reminds me of those Magic Eye books that used to drive me crazy. You know, where you look through the acid trip of a picture and see a 3D image? Yeah, pretty sure there's nothing hidden in Roshar's oceans, but the Reshi Isles really screw with my eyes. @_@

And it would bring me back to my gut reaction, which was "Kaladin vs. Amaram: Surgebinder Style." I'd dismissed the idea (for now, anyway) because it didn't seem like Amaram had access to the Honorblade... but if Taln still has it (or if someone other than Hoid or Dalinar got it offscreen), then maybe we can still see that epic showdown. Amaram does seem to be rising in the ranks, from some random bastard Kaladin once knew to Sadeas' flunkie to a significant antagonist in his own right. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to see Kaladin give Amaram the beating he deserves.

I was flipping through WoR earlier and came across another parallel that I think is worth considering here. Compare Chapter 45... with Interlude 10... (Also, bearing in mind that Urithiru is completely flat on the east side, making it essentially an enormous cliff.) There's a marked similarity between these two quotes, from the world's tallest tower/cliff to the contemplation to the "end." Too many for me to believe that these two quotes are unrelated. Now, I'm not saying that Szeth is the other blind mand in Hoid's story (he does sound a lot like the disillusioned blind man, but I don't know when or why he would have had a conversation with Hoid.) I do think Urithiru is significant. Could Hoid have had a conversation with someone atop Urithiru at some point? It's been abandoned for ages, aside from Szeth's occasional visits. I doubt anyone else could have reached it, except perhaps Nalan/whichever Herald still has his/her Honorblade (assuming it grants the Surge of Gravitation or Transportation, or functions enough like a living Shardblade to operate the Oathgates.) So perhaps the conversation happened a long time ago. Say, in a previous Desolation? That would certainly qualify as "the end of an era," and could explain the part about "overlooking the land and seeing nothing." There wouldn't be much left to see after a Desolation. As to who the other blind man might be, my only guess is Nohadon. Mostly because he's this mysterious figure of legend living in eventful times. Seems like the kind of person Hoid would seek out for a conversation or two.

I know there are lots of theories floating around about what order so-and-so could be or what such-and-such a Surge might do, but the Willshapers are really intriguing to me, and there doesn't seem to be much discussion about them in particular. So here goes. (Also, apologies in advance for the long post, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately.) (I think my fascination may come from the fact that that description fits the Doctor to a T. Especially Eleven.) Theory 1: Lopen is a Willshaper So Lopen has some connection to the Knights Radiant. Whether he's a squire, a full Windrunner, or another order entirely is up for debate. I'm inclined to believe it's something more than what the other members of Bridge Four are experiencing, since Lopen took in Stormlight consciously and independently (neither of which can be said for certain about the men fighting the Parshendi.) Or, to be more meta about it, why single out Lopen to get his own scene if he's just one of a dozen squires? I think it's equally likely that Lopen will turn out to be another Windrunner vs. that he'll be a different order. But if he is another order, my money's on Willshapers. Of all the potential Radiants out there, Lopen seems like the best fit for the Willshapers. He's enterprising (his very first bridge run, Kaladin asks him to bring water. He grabs Dabbid and Hobber, builds a litter, and piles on twenty waterskins). I'm may have a certain fondness for him, but I'm sure lots of people find him frustrating and unreliable. And he loves adventure, novelty, and oddity. Various things from the training scenes in WoR Chapter 12. "Fly!" "Walk on walls!" "Stick me to a wall!" And of course It's really only going on his personality, but it's such a good fit! Theory 2: Axies the Collector is a Willshaper Of the three theories here, this is the one I'm least confident about, but I'll at least put it out there as a stepping stone to the next one. Axies is at least as fascinated by novelty and adventure as Lopen, as evidenced by his many travels in search of spren. Also, his shadow is seen to act erratically, much like Jasnah's. (This could make him an Elsecaller, but he doesn't seem to have the right temperament for it.) There's something from his interlude in WoK that stands out to me. I know this is thin, but bear with me. Axies got drunk, was robbed and knocked out, and woke up disoriented. Fine. I'll buy that. I'll even buy that he didn't immediately remember where he was before getting drunk. But I would think that someone who's just groggy would respond more with, "Oh, right. Kasitor." Not this kind of vague, "I'm just gonna take your word for it" response. He deliberately came to Kasitor to see Cusicesh. It probably took him a while to get there by land or sea, and he'd probably been looking forward to it for a while. Is it really that surprising to him that his pre-hangover self came here? Or was he expecting his assailants to have taken him to another city after they robbed him? It's not like he's in a field somewhere, or a shed or something. But if he can travel large distances in the blink of an eye, he might have just popped over to Kasitor on a whim. He might be used to traveling halfway across Roshar between one day and the next. And that's not the only time it's suggested. Superstition? Yes. But there's a fair chance it has grounding in fact. Now, maybe it's referring to the fact that Aimians can manipulate their body/appearance. But without some severe reshaping, he's not likely to get out of his bonds. If he could teleport away, on the other hand... There are obviously some major flaws with this theory. Most of what makes Axies distinct is implied to be because he's Aimian, not because there's something specific to him. (Though I would like to point out that it doesn't ever specifically say that Aimian=anything other than blue nails and eyes.) (1) The comment about Aimians refers directly to the first sentence, and then the narration appears to switch tracks. You could read this as. "Maybe it was because he was Aimian. Or maybe because he was a Radiant." (2) This suggests that "his kind" (that cast strange shadows) are Aimians. But "his kind" could just as easily be "Radiants." Or maybe the difference between Siah and Dysian is that Siah are Radiants/something similar to Radiants. The scouring of Aimia might have happened because Siah Aimians had access to unnatural powers (aka Surges.) (If WoB has said that all Aimians have wonky shadows, I missed it. Forgive me and move on to Theory 3 below.) The only real reservation I have about this is that Aimians aren't humans and thus might not be capable of becoming Radiants. In that case... Theory 3: Axies has some other connection to the spren of Willshapers or Elsecallers If Axies can't be a Radiant, he might still have magic and/or a spren bond. Maybe it's the Old Magic, or Voidbinding, or something else (Surgebinding that circumvents the Nahel bond? Symbiosis with spren lacking a proper bond? Some mixed human/spren blood???) It could be that the magic systems on Roshar function similarly to those on Scadrial--same catalyst, different (but sometimes related) effect. Tineyes and Windwhispers (tin Ferrings) both use tin to enhance their senses. Elsecallers and the corresponding Old Magic-bound Aimians bind the same spren, getting the same strange shadow, but otherwise aren't that similar. Could even be that each race on Roshar is particularly attuned to a particular type of magic. The Listeners/Parshendi to Voidbinding (formerly Surgebinding until humans lured the spren away), humans to Surgebinding, and Aimians to Old Magic. And while humans lost their magic, by and large, after the Recreance, Parshendi and Aimians may have held onto it. Any number of Aimians might have been Radiant analogues before the scouring.

Even if the circles aren't intended to represent a special ability, it seems like each Order does have something unique. I've seen other people speculating that Bondsmiths can somehow affect bonds with spren, and it makes a kind of thematic sense, given their Surges (Tension and Adhesion.) We know from seeing Kaladin and Szeth use their Lashings that Adhesion sticks things together. We may not know that the Surge of Tension does, but in our world tension comes from straining a bond between two objects (typically a string or the like.) So thematically, the Bondsmiths are more associated with bonds than other Orders. For another example: Truthwatchers. They have Illumination (light) and Progression (growth and healing, or more loosely organic change over time), which combine to give them visions of the future (change over time). This also suggests that the Orders' names are significant. So, theories for all the Orders: Windrunners (Adhesion, which is atmospheric pressure and vacuum, and Gravitation.) Not sure what form this is going to take, but may have something to do with the sky/atmosphere/space (Fine, I just want to see Kaladin go to the moons.) Skybreakers (Gravitation and Division.) With no way of knowing what Division is going to do, specifically (could be anything from the anti-Progression to disintigration to who knows what), I can't really offer any concrete theories. But my gut says lightning. (Or maybe that's just me hoping for Szeth descending in a column of blinding plasma to visit death upon his enemies...) Dustbringers (Division and Abrasion, or friction.) I'm having the same problem here as with Skybreakers, but where Skybreakers seem to be more aerial, Dustbringers are decidedly surface-bound. Possibly stormlight-enhanced Tasmanian Devils. >.> It may also be worth noting that this Order prefered the term "Releasers," which makes me think of freeing things trapped in stone (though the only things I can think of that might fit that are Thunderclasts, which I doubt the Radiants would want to release, and the spren of stones revered in Shinovar, which we known very little about.) Edgedancers (Abrasion and Progression.) Something to do with motion, since progression is a kinetic concept and they have the ability to overcome friction (which opposes motion.) Would also explain why Edgedancers are reknowned for their grace and their ability to move through battles/over strange surfaces, where the Dustbringers are not. Truthwatchers (Progression and Illumination.) Visions of the future (see above.) Lightweavers (Illumination and Transformation.) I think we may have already seen some of this in Shallan's illusions, but without a Truthwatcher illusion to compare it to, we didn't realize what she was doing was unique. Because a lot of Shallan's illusions have an element of transformation to them (the truth from the lie)--I'm betting Renarin isn't going to be capable of nearly as much. Elsecallers (Transformation and Transportation.) Most notable here is that both Surges have some connection to Shadesmar, and the Elsecallers regarded themselves as "prime liaisons" with the spren (see chapter 53 epigraph.) Willshapers (Transportation and Cohesion.) Yeah... absolutely no clue here. If anyone else has any theories I'd be glad to hear them. Stonewards (Cohesion and Tension.) Again, no clue. I'm not entirely sure on what the "Axial Interconnection" Surges do. Bondsmiths (Tension and Adhesion.) Bonds (see above.)

I'm pretty sure Axies was there specifically to investigate the greatshell spren. Seems he wanted to find out if this was a different kind of spren, or just a really strong version, asked some questions that didn't sit well with the king, and got strung up.

Just because I like playing devil's advocate... You could read this as saying, Which might suggest that the spren Bondsmiths bonded to were set apart from ordinary spren. Unique spren (like Cusichesh, for example), or maybe specific unique spren. Spren with some connection to the gods, perhaps? The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and others, whom we haven't necessarily seen yet. Shardspren, if you will. I say this because of the other epigraph that mentions Bondsmiths: Now, granted, we don't know what the Bondsmiths' Surges do, exactly, but I find it unlikely that Adhesion and Tension have much to do with the Heralds or Odium or any of it. They don't strike me as especially divine Surges. So maybe Melishi is thinking of the Bondsmiths' connection to Honor himself. (And/or Cultivation. And/or Odium. And/or various combinations thereof.) If the Bondsmiths' spren held more of their respective Shard's power/consciousness than typical spren, it might give the Bondsmiths a way to manipulate the Oathpact. Perhaps making it stronger somehow? Hastening the end of the current Desolation and delaying the next? Actually, for that matter, maybe Surgebinding alone is enough to explain it. Adhesion and tension are both static. One pushing, the other pulling, but basically holding everything together. Physical bonds, but also things like the Oathpacts. If Progression (typically plants and healing, but also, more loosely speaking, change over time) and Illumination (light and sound) can combine to give Truthseers visions of how things are going to change over time, maybe Adhesion and Tension combine to give Bondsmiths power over things like the Oathpact. So new theory: The Bondsmiths literally Surgebound the Oathpact into oblivion. Yay, team! (And now I'm thinking of Taravangian's prediction that "one is almost certainly a traitor to the others." If Bondsmiths bind "Shardspren," they could bind Odium's spren. Maybe Odium used a Bondsmith to breath the Oathpact 4500 years ago, and then set himself up as the "Stormfather" to manipulate Dalinar into finishing the job.)

Personally, I'm not convinced about the Plate being made up of spren of any kind. If that was true, those spren would have to be dead in the modern day (the Plate no longer glows like it does in Dalinar's visions; doesn't have the same glyphs; and most importantly, it now interferes with Lashings.) Contrast with: To me, it seems like old Plate is powered by stormlight. Not formed by the bonded spren like a Shardblade is, but somehow connected to Surgebinding. A fabrial, maybe, but one that doesn't need stones since its bearer can store stormlight him/herself. Navani mentions that Shardblades didn't used to have stones in the hilts (WoR chapter 67) but were added later. The same thing could have happened to the Plate--Radiants could use it because of their spren and/or Surges, but after the Recreance it just became fancy armor until someone figured out how to rework the fabrial so non-Surgebinders could use it. (This would also explain why the old Windrunners could use Plate and Lashings together, but Szeth can't.) Besides, if the Plate is made up of spren, the only thing that could have changed is that they died--and whether or not they realize it, I think Syl would know and be upset about it at least as much as Blades upset her. I'm wondering if the Radiants somehow figured out a way to focus stormlight through glyphs to make armor respond to the Radiant's will. It could explain where glyphwards came from and why people burn them (since ordinary people can't just spontaneously make things glow...) But I do like the idea of bonding spren associating with non-bonding spren. Syl and windspren, Pattern and creationspren... Wyndle and lifespren, maybe? We don't see it in Lift's interlude, but Nalan drags her away from the only major bit of Surgebinding she does (healing Gawx), and it would fit, with Wyndle taking the form of a crystalline vines and Edgedancers having the Surge of Growth/Regrowth.

Could be Lopen's spren is just keeping his/her distance. Either because Lopen isn't broken enough yet (like how Syl watched Kaladin in the army but didn't start talking to him until after Amaram's betrayal--until Kaladin had the blackbane leaves, in fact.) Or because Lopen isn't admitting his brokenness (a la Shallan suppressing her Surgebinding and her bond with Pattern for YEARS). Or for some other reason. We know very little about Lopen, and very little about most Orders of Knights Radiant, like what would attract a particular type of spren to a potential Radiant. And remember, Shallan used stormlight to Soulcast without having a substantial bond with Pattern. (Could be the lingering effects of her younger years, when the bond was strong enough for Shallan to summon Pattern as a Shardblade, but the fact still remains that Pattern was dumb and not noticeably present while Shallan was Soulcasting.) If Shallan or Kaladin had known to try taking in Stormlight before they were aware of their spren, it's entirely possible they would have succeeded, if only with a lot of persistence.

*fixed (Shallan's secret weapon is love.)

Possible, but if that's the case, the doctrine seems to have strayed quite a bit since then. From chapter 88 of WoR: Could just be me, but it seems like Stone Shamanism is related more to nature spren than the Heralds. Which is really interesting, since spren don't seem to be present/active in Shinovar, but the Shin do possess most of the Honorblades. I suppose it fits. In the rest of Roshar, spren are too commonplace to be seen as divine, while the Heralds are ancient and mysterious. Not saying Taln doesn't have something to do with Stone Shamanism, but he doesn't fully explain it. (What little we know at this point.)

That's an interesting theory. I've been wondering what, exactly, "Son of Honor" is referring too, since we hear it in two contexts. (1) The Stormfather calling Kaladin "Son of Honor." (2) Amaram, in his letter to Restares, talking about "our burden as the Sons of Honor." Whether it refers to literal ancestry or some sort of innate power, there's definitely something going on here. (And every time Amaram shows up, I swear he becomes a bigger threat. haha) I keep expecting everyone to have some secret in their parentage. Shallan's mother, Kaladin's parents/ancestors (back to the Son of Honor thing)... Though if anyone is the child of a Herald or someone equally important, my money's on Adolin and Renarin. Zahel's words from chapter 20 really stuck in my head: The obvious implication is that Dalinar is powerful, but I don't think he's that powerful. We're probably going to have to wait a long time to find out about Dalinar's wife, but whoever she is, she's important.

I agree with everything said so far, but I also think that it was getting worse with each Desolation. Centuries of torment followed by a few years preparing/fighting in the Desolation, then repeat the cycle. It's not like the Heralds ever had any significant break from the torment. That's the whole reason the Nine broke the Oathpact. They couldn't take it anymore. So Taln was probably pretty close to breaking already, then received an overload of torment for far longer than usual while also dealing with the betrayal of his friends/allies.... Yeah, not surprising that he's completely broken.

I think you're confusing the Radiants with the Heralds. Heralds have Honorblades (which give them Surgebinding) but no spren. Knights Radiant have spren (which give them Surgebinding and Shardblades). As for your second question, I do remember that, but I don't know any specifics. It's probably similar to the difference between the Shardblades when the Old Radiants weilded them and those same Blades in modern times, but as far as I'm aware we aren't sure what, exactly, makes the Plate work (i.e. if it's something to do with the spren bond or what.) I expect we'll find out more in later books. (If only because Navani--and numerous other scholars--are fascinated by Shards.)

I do like the sound of that. I get the impression that we're wrong with an awful lot of our assumptions. That's just how Sanderson works. "Oh, you know that totally innocuous thing you've been seeing all along? Yeah, that's baaaaaad. And that other thing, the ominous thing? The only thing that can possibly save your life. :)" (Sorry, anyone else getting Mistborn flashbacks?) Or it just made it impossible for the Radiants to not kill their friends. It's not like Kaladin was trying to hurt Syl in this book. Of course, in that case we'd need more imformation on the other Orders' Ideals and what it takes to kill a bonded spren. But say a Bondsmith found out the Heralds had abandoned Taln, and he told the other Radiants in hopes of uniting them against a looming threat. But instead it caused the Stonewards to rebel against the other Orders (thus the Bondsmiths indirectly broke their vow of uniting people instead of dividing.) Not saying that's what happened, but the Radiants' betrayals might not (all) have been intentional.

I think there's some tangible aspect to the secret, but not because of the word "hold." That could easily be metaphorical, like others have pointed out. But if it's a secret that's bad enough to destroy the Knights Radiant (twice over) he's got to have some sort of proof, otherwise what's to stop the new Radiants from ignoring him? (Or at the very least, Mr. T's got to find some proof at some point. I don't doubt that super smart!Mr. T might have believed the whole world would crumble at his words because of course.) Gavilar's sphere seems a likely suspect, but there's no way to be sure that it has relevance to this particular secret.

So, yeah, hello. Been around a little while and figured it was about time to get an account and start posting here. (As long as I'm obsessed with Sanderson, I might as well join in the madness, right?) Not much to say. Words of Radiance killed me (not surprising) and now I'm making my way through a fresh read of all the Cosmere stories because of course. haha *waves awkwardly*