Fullborn at full power?

[Trusk'our he/him]

Of all the Cosmere's known magic users, I'm not really sure that anyone can compare to the fullborn (mistborn + full feruchemist) in terms of raw power.

They can:

1. Get a nearly infinite supply of any feruchemical attribute that they want as long as they have the metals available, then tap them at pretty much any speed that they want. 

2. Reverse compound somehow (probably feruchemical nicrocil at work here, but it has yet to be confirmed) to increase their allomantic powers to a ridiculous amount, pretty much as much as they want, similar to their feruchemical counterparts. 

3. There isn't really a maximum limit to the amount of investiture that they can store, except maybe the amount of metalminds that they can carry, which is still a lot.

It doesn't seem like fullborn have the traditional limitations that you'd expect to see on other metalborn, surgbinders, awakeners, or any other magic users really.

How powerful are they, really, and what would it take to bring down a competent fullborn?

(Mcguffins such as shards of Adonalsium or Dawn shards don't count, I'm referring to "normal" magic users)

Edited November 2, 2021 by Trusk'our

[NameIess]

28 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Of all the Cosmere's known magic users, I'm not really sure that anyone can compare to the fullborn (mistborn + full feruchemist) in terms of raw power.

They can:

1. Get a nearly infinite supply of any feruchemical attribute that they want as long as they have the metals available, then tap them at pretty much any speed that they want. 

2. Reverse compound somehow (probably feruchemical nicrocil at work here, but it has yet to be confirmed) to increase their allomantic powers to a ridiculous amount, pretty much as much as they want, similar to their feruchemical counterparts. 

3. There isn't really a maximum limit to the amount of investiture that they can store, except maybe the amount of metalminds that they can carry, which is still a lot.

It doesn't seem like fullborn have the traditional limitations that you'd expect to see on other metalborn, surgbinders, awakeners, or any other magic users really.

How powerful are they, really, and what would it take to bring down a competent fullborn?

(Mcguffins such as shards of Adonalsium or Dawn shards don't count, I'm referring to "normal" magic users)

Yeah, fullborn are pretty OP.  A shardblade to the spine by surprise could kill one, as could decapitation, but both of those would be really difficult against someone who can move faster than the eye can see and hit with the force of a tank. I think the easiest method, which has been suggested before, would be to have a soulcaster in the cognitive realm soulcast the fullborn to smoke. Unless the fullborn constantly taps all of their metalminds, that should be doable.

[HSuperLee]

At this point y'all are just trying to get me to say it. I should put it in my signature. But, anyway: Fullborn are the Kryptonians of the Cosmere.

Now that that's done, I agree that there's not much that can compete with a fullborn with a decent metal supply. However, I do believe there is an upper limit to feruchemy, and that we've actually begun to see something close to it. I believe that when we see Marasi starting to leak mist while using the Bands of Mourning, that the mist indicates she's at about the limit of feruchemy that her body could hold, and so it begins to leak, much like stormlight. I think trying to tap more from a metalmind beyond that wouldn't actually improve the fullbor's traits any more but would merely cause more of it to leak as mist. Granted, that's just a theory, but I do think we will eventually see an upper limit to the magic. Especially as compounding becomes more common with the use of medallions to provide temporary access to metalborn powers.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

2. Reverse compound somehow (probably feruchemical nicrocil at work here, but it has yet to be confirmed) to increase their allomantic powers to a ridiculous amount, pretty much as much as they want, similar to their feruchemical counterparts. 

Reverse compounding is not confirmed, Compounding Nicrosil containing Allomantic abilities is likely similar, but unless there's a WoB out there I haven't seen, reverse compounding remains theoretical.

 

And Nightblood is as solid a counter as any.

[Brgst13]

Also I think a fully powered Bondsmith might be able to do pretty well also.  He could probably manipulate the Metalmunds' Connection to the Full-on and then go to work. Dalinar Kholin in living Shardplate vs effectively a Mistborn?  I know where my money is.  Also, he could use Ishar's glue them to the ground trick.  It's hard to move that fast dragging an entire planet with you.

[Honorless he/him]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Reverse compounding is not confirmed, Compounding Nicrosil containing Allomantic abilities is likely similar, but unless there's a WoB out there I haven't seen, reverse compounding remains theoretical.

We do have this WoB:

Quote

Kaymyth (paraphrased)

I asked him about what the board refers to as "reverse" compounding - i.e., using Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy, rather than the other way around. I wanted to make sure that it was really a thing that exists.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that it was.

Kaymyth (paraphrased)

Is this what the Southern Scadrians have been doing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar, but not exactly the same.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

We also have this WoB, though it's not about reverse Compounding (using Feruchemy to power Allomancy, Compounding itself is powering Feruchemy with Allomancy), but about Feruchemy and Hemalurgy:

Quote

Questioner

Can you use Feruchemy and Hemalurgy together like you can use Allomancy and Feruchemy to Compound?

Brandon Sanderson

*asks for clarification* There are some tricks you can play. I wouldn't call them Compounding, but there are tricks.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

The Metallic Arts still have a few hidden tricks

Edited November 3, 2021 by Honorless

[Aspiring Writer]

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

I think the easiest method, which has been suggested before, would be to have a soulcaster in the cognitive realm soulcast the fullborn to smoke

Pretty sure they could just run away and the Soulcaster couldn't do crap

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Pretty sure they could just run away and the Soulcaster couldn't do crap

They would have to know the Soulcaster was there, and the metalic arts aren't really geared towards the CR.

[HSuperLee]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

They would have to know the Soulcaster was there, and the metalic arts aren't really geared towards the CR.

Granted the whole ability to see souls thing could be hinting that at their highest level, the metallic arts do present a heightened level of realmatic awareness. And the fact that some people (granted they were mad) were able to hear Kelsier when he was a cognitive shadow in the CR might suggest that people in the Cosmere do have some very weak sense of awareness of the CR, and perhaps via tin compounding that could be increased and extended. Am I reaching? Yes. But I do think we shouldn't underestimate the realmatic potential of any magic system, including the metallic arts.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Nightblood is as solid a counter as any.

Agreed. A talented Radiant wielding Nightblood with plenty of Stormlight or any of the Heralds (with their native sword or Nightblood) could probably take down a Fullborn in an ambush. The biggest factor would be the Radiant or Herald could cut away the steel and gold metal mind in the first moments. That would make the playing field almost level.

A (very) clever Elantrian could probably separate them from their metalminds or turn them to corn. The AonDor can do almost anything on Sel, including make disguises, and Elantrian have higher mental capacities at all times. That suggests that an Elantrian with a grudge could figure out where the steel and gold metalminds are then take them away. A different Elantrian could at the same time create a very hot fire in the Fullborn's belly and melt all of their metals. The metal would then form into an random alloy that is probably not allomantically useful. 

A Threnodite could cut themselves and smear the blood on the Fullborn to attract all of the ghosts in the area. 

[Frustration]

48 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Granted the whole ability to see souls thing could be hinting that at their highest level, the metallic arts do present a heightened level of realmatic awareness. And the fact that some people (granted they were mad) were able to hear Kelsier when he was a cognitive shadow in the CR might suggest that people in the Cosmere do have some very weak sense of awareness of the CR, and perhaps via tin compounding that could be increased and extended. Am I reaching? Yes. But I do think we shouldn't underestimate the realmatic potential of any magic system, including the metallic arts.

I don't think Tin is what you want, Tapping enough Nicrosil will allow them to transer realms, but it's one of the hardest methods we know of.

[StanLemon]

Ambushing a a Fullborn would be mighty difficult. BoM showed that a Fullborn's Allomancy is also insanely powerful. Wax was able to hear people on the other side of a ship as easily as he could the person standing right next to him. And he wasn't even familiar with the enhanced senses Tin gave. Also we have no idea how powerful Bronze is at that level. 

14 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Also I think a fully powered Bondsmith might be able to do pretty well also.  He could probably manipulate the Metalmunds' Connection to the Full-on and then go to work. Dalinar Kholin in living Shardplate vs effectively a Mistborn?  I know where my money is.  Also, he could use Ishar's glue them to the ground trick.  It's hard to move that fast dragging an entire planet with you.

This is unlikely for multiple reasons. First Ishar had to touch all those Radiants to do that trick, if they are close enough to touch, unless the Fullborn is not taking the fight seriously at all, the Fullborn can kill the Radiant faster than the Radiant can do anything. Also, keep in mind, Feruchemists can manipulate Connection as well. While probably not anywhere near as free form as a Bondsmith. I'd be surprised if a Fullborn didn't have a way to defend. 

[Zapata]

38 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Ambushing a a Fullborn would be mighty difficult. BoM showed that a Fullborn's Allomancy is also insanely powerful. Wax was able to hear people on the other side of a ship as easily as he could the person standing right next to him. And he wasn't even familiar with the enhanced senses Tin gave. Also we have no idea how powerful Bronze is at that level. 

This is unlikely for multiple reasons. First Ishar had to touch all those Radiants to do that trick, if they are close enough to touch, unless the Fullborn is not taking the fight seriously at all, the Fullborn can kill the Radiant faster than the Radiant can do anything. Also, keep in mind, Feruchemists can manipulate Connection as well. While probably not anywhere near as free form as a Bondsmith. I'd be surprised if a Fullborn didn't have a way to defend. 

Like Ishar's trick could probably be countered by storing away the Connection to the ground. 

[MasterK-Bob he/him]

I don't think either a shard blade to the spine or decapitation would kill a fullborn assuming they were actively tapping gold at the time and had enough health stored, which any competent fullborn would do most of the time, and which both Miles and the Lord Ruler definitely did. I don't think there would be much a fullborn could do to counter Ishar once he got started but with prep I be they could do plenty to defend against it. They could probably kill Ishar before he made a move by combining the speed of steel and zinc with pewter and tin though; the heralds have all died before.