Consciousness of the Cognitive Shadow

[Awaken Returner she/her]

I realize this has been discussed prior, but I feel unsatisfied by the topic’s resolution. I wish to have it explored further.

Simply, if a person dies invested, does their consciousness persist through their cognitive shadow?

Based upon how Mistborn: Secret History was worded, I am inclined to believe so.

Quote

Kelsier died.

It turned out to be a far more painful process than he had anticipated...

He stumbled to his knees...

He was alive.

The reader has no reason from the wording to infer that Kelseir was merely recalling dying as if from the memory of his past self, instead, the wording seemingly suggests the active, present experience of death through the eyes of Kelsier.

What do you guys think?

-Replies-

On 10/24/2021 at 5:21 PM, Honorless said:

Recall back to Edgedancer, when Arclo talks about a culture that believes that a person only lives for a day, then they sleep and die, and a new person awakens with their collective memory. Continuity of consciousness cannot really be discerned if there's a break in the middle. The one we follow in Secret History could very well be a second Kelsier born from the first one's death, an impression of the original. We just don't know.

An interesting argument. Such is however tied toward the idea that sleep does incur a definite “break” in consciousness.

Even discounting the presence of dreams, the continued activity of the brain, from which consciousness stems, during sleep as seen through EEG, makes me inclined to think sleep as a “mode” or state of consciousness rather than its temporary termination. Indeed unifying the concept of consciousness and being conscious to the living “self” that exists and is aware of its existence seems strange to me. Perhaps my mind merely revolts at the Arclo’s supposition, but I digress.

Supposing a hypothetical true break in consciousness as you have suggested, it would be impossible for an outsider to tell whether the story tells of the same Kelseir. We must therefore look upon the evidence provided by the precise wording of BS.

So far as I can tell, no clean break seems to have occurred, though I might need to listen to Secret History once more to be sure.

On 10/24/2021 at 6:05 PM, Oltux72 said:

Moreover the question may not have an objective answer. It is true that in the Cosmere, living beings have a part that goes to the Beyond upon the second death, but equating this to personal identity is as far as we know arbitrary.

There should be an “objective” answer relative to the systems of order present within the Cosmere. Whether or not the soul which passes “contains?” or is the individual is, or neither,  I agree, not knowable based upon current evidence.

-

As for the question; if I lose all my memories and accumulated new ones would I still be the same me?

Depends on the definition of what we mean when we say the self or personhood I think.

Yes, in a sense, I would not understand or recognize myself as the same “person” but I would recognize my current consciousness as the present continuation of my existence.

Do memories make us who we are?

in a way, but also no. Memories and ideals change the way we view ourselves as being, but it does not change our fundamental essence and existence (that we exist, that we are aware of it, and that there are attributes that, whether ordained by the divine or a simple consequence of our evolution, make us “human”, “singer”, “Kandra”, or simply people) We are not because we think but because simply we are.

As for the philosophical ship for instance, it only exists because we perceive it as a ship, regardless of whether we consider it the same or not. But for people (and sapient life in general), there is an awareness that makes us distinct from the rest of the universe (such that even without constructs that “aware individual” still remains) and I refer to this continuing existence and consciousness as the core of the self.

I guess the question to be asked is, if you were born with someone else’s memories would you recognize yourself as just having been born?

As for people changing with every moment, our idea of our personal identity does change with every passing moment as it evolves, but I refer to the continuous “consciousness” of the aware being. I guess I’m asking whether, if I experienced dying as Kelsier, if I would also experience Secret History or if someone else, with my face and memories would.

But I agree, BS probably will keep it a mystery. It is a very subjective thing and people will have different interpretations.

ps. Thanks for all the replies guys! It was definitely an interesting discussion for me.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Awaken Returner
Formating and Adding Thoughts

[mathiau he/him]

The answer is "Brandon will never tell us whether the CS is a new being with your memories or is still the previous being"

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

The answer is "Brandon will never tell us whether the CS is a new being with your memories or is still the previous being"

Exactly, Brandon is leaving it up as a mystery of the Cosmere the relationship of a Cognitive Shadow and a person's soul is. And I'm sure there will be more in-universe debates on the subject. 

Personally, I'm inclined to side with the thought that they are the same being. While Vasher's hypothesis on the nature of Cognitive Shadows has merit, that they are Investiture 'fossilized' in the form of the person, I think Kesier's experiences show that it isn't that simple. We know that people go to the beyond when they die based on Secret History and further confirmed by Harmony in Era 2. Additionally, because of Secret History, we see that everyone (on Scadrial at least) leaves a Cognitive Shadow when they die which then gets pulled to the Beyond. The Investiture isn't just dissipating and Kesier himself notes that it feels like he's being pulled away. It can be argued that the Investiture is being returned to the Spiritual Realm, but it is pretty strongly implied that the place that they get pulled to is a place Beyond. Then on top of that, both Preservation and Harmony treat these people as the same person who was alive and is now dead. 

I have a hypothesis that without the tie to the Physical Realm is why Cognitive Shadows over time become more spren like. The same way a brain and body which are part of the Physical Realm and they are subject to the Realm's nature. It's well documented that chemical imbalances, tumors, and other such things in the brain can alter a person's personality. Now that the Shadow's consciousness is a thing of the Cognitive it is bound to the nature of that Realm.

[Honorless he/him]

Recall back to Edgedancer, when Arclo talks about a culture that believes that a person only lives for a day, then they sleep and die, and a new person awakens with their collective memory. Continuity of consciousness cannot really be discerned if there's a break in the middle. The one we follow in Secret History could very well be a second Kelsier born from the first one's death, an impression of the original. We just don't know.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

41 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Recall back to Edgedancer, when Arclo talks about a culture that believes that a person only lives for a day, then they sleep and die, and a new person awakens with their collective memory. Continuity of consciousness cannot really be discerned if there's a break in the middle. The one we follow in Secret History could very well be a second Kelsier born from the first one's death, an impression of the original. We just don't know.

Moreover the question may not have an objective answer. It is true that in the Cosmere, living beings have a part that goes to the Beyond upon the second death, but equating this to personal identity is as far as we know arbitrary.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 24.10.2021 at 4:43 AM, Awaken Returner said:

There should be an “objective” answer relative to the systems of order present within the Cosmere. Whether or not the soul which passes “contains?” or is the individual is, or neither,  I agree, not knowable based upon current evidence.

Well, no. You get objective answers only to questions about things that objectively exist.

Objectively any living thing in the Cosmere has three aspects and death does objectively verifiable things to them, depending on circumstances. If you use, that you'll cease to be yourself every time your body changes or you think or learn something new. That is not helpful a conclusion.

As far as we have objective facts, a Returned can retrieve his Breaths from awakened objects, so in terms of Identity you are yourself. Hence a Cognitive Shadow is a weird subcategory of amputee with a natural prothesis. You can define the thing lost as his or her "true self". But that is a definition. The objective fact is that you lost something. But you are asking for the meaning of what is lost. That is a different kind of question.

[Honorless he/him]

On 10/24/2021 at 8:13 AM, Awaken Returner said:

An interesting argument. Such is however tied toward the idea that sleep does incur a definite “break” in consciousness.

Even discounting the presence of dreams, the continued activity of the brain, from which consciousness stems, during sleep as seen through EEG, makes me inclined to think sleep as a “mode” or state of consciousness rather than its temporary termination. Indeed unifying the concept of consciousness and being conscious to the living “self” that exists and is aware of its existence seems strange to me. Perhaps my mind merely revolts at the Arclo’s supposition, but I digress.

Supposing a hypothetical true break in consciousness as you have suggested, it would be impossible for an outsider to tell whether the story tells of the same Kelseir. We must therefore look upon the evidence provided by the precise wording of BS.

So far as I can tell, no clean break seems to have occurred, though I might need to listen to Secret History once more to be sure.

It wouldn't be detectable in first person either, especially if we break from the idea of a fundamental, indivisible "I" / "soul" / "self" instead of a conglomeration of various biological process and memories and experiences. How would Kelsier the Cognitive Shadow know if Kelsier the human being's memories and experiences were just copied over to him? As far as he can tell, all his inherited memories are his. Furthermore, if there is no such thing as soul in the religious sense, who's to say that the memories and experiences themselves don't make Kelsier... Kelsier? In that case, he's still just Kelsier, in a different plane of reality.

If we look at what we know, we can point and say, the Spiritweb continues to exist through the process of death and both the Kelsiers (or just Kelsier) have the same Spiritweb. But the Spiritweb is also kinda like the Physical body, it has many parts and can be fiddled with and changed, so can it be called the "self"? Because then suddenly self could grow to encompass a lot more than just who a person is, to however their Spiritweb could be altered to change them. A Spiritweb is just Investiture with recorded data. And really the same goes for the mind, if you lost all of your memories and lived a new life, accumulated different experiences and ways of thinking than your previous self, are you both the same person? How about Shallan, Veil and Radiant?

We should also take a look at the person from whom we get the solid breakdown of the idea of Cognitive Shadows being an imprint. Vasher is a Returned. And the Returned do not return with their memories. Lightsong and Stennimar were very different people. Vasher might feel like who he is and the person who died were different individuals. Plus there's probably also a bit of self loathing there for taking Breaths to live, the Manywar, Nightblood, that might drive him to think of himself as lesser or just a copy of dead person. Also, look at the number of names and identities he has taken on throughout his life: Kalad, Talaxin, Strifelover, Peacegiver, Vasher, Zahel. I think he would view the idea of the "self" very differently from Kelsier.

Kelsier, I think, would just be like "I think, therefore I am, and I think I'm still the same me" and that's fine too.

I would say it's very much a philosophical and subjective question to ask whether or not a Cognitive Shadow is the same person or not. Maybe the body dies, the mind goes to the beyond or stays behind if it's heavily Invested and the Spiritweb lingers so long as it still has Connections. Or maybe the Physical body dies, the mind fizzles out or is copied into Investiture and the Spiritweb lingers on with this copy.

Brandon is not going to answer this definitively.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Honorless

[StanLemon]

This discussion makes me think of the age old question. If you have a ship, but over time you replace every single part and then use the old parts to build a new ship, which ship is the original? In the Cosmere, this philosophical question I think has a conclusive answer, the ship with the Cognitive and Spiritual aspect of the original because people see the ship as more than the sum of its parts.

This I think can and should be applied to Cognitive Shadows as well. Despite Lightsong having his memories removed, there were core aspects of his personality that were the same. Kelsier's Shadow in every meaningful way is Kelsier. Even Preservation, Ruin, and Harmony, beings that can see all three aspects of a person, still treat Kelsier as the same being that he was. Heck, Wax technically died in Bands of Mourning and was given the choice of going to the Beyond or back to life. If he wasn't a Cognitive Shadow then, then where do you draw the line between the soul and Cognitive Shadow after death.

[Olmund]

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the fact that the cognitive shadow is pulled to the beyond (rather than staying put and/or fading to nothing) implies that there is something important housed within the cognitive shadow which is inextricably linked to the individual's spiritual identity. The most obvious candidate, imo, is the erstwhile living person's  consciousness.

In other words, if cognitive shadows were merely partially invested imprints of the mind at the time of death, there would be little impetus for it to be pulled to the spiritual realm -- I would expect it to fade into nothingness without investiture to keep it alive. Either we have to assume that spiritual identities are "grabby" after physical death -- i.e., they will attract anything that is connected to the original individual in some way -- or that there is an integral part of the individual associated with the cognitive shadow.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 minutes ago, Olmund said:

In other words, if cognitive shadows were merely partially invested imprints of the mind at the time of death, there would be little impetus for it to be pulled to the spiritual realm -- I would expect it to fade into nothingness without investiture to keep it alive. Either we have to assume that spiritual identities are "grabby" after physical death -- i.e., they will attract anything that is connected to the original individual in some way -- or that there is an integral part of the individual associated with the cognitive shadow.

That is based on the optimistic interpretation of the Beyond. For all we know they may just be sensing imminent dissolution.

[Olmund]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is based on the optimistic interpretation of the Beyond. For all we know they may just be sensing imminent dissolution.

Spoken like a true disciple of Jasnah. While that is indeed a valid interpretation, I personally feel that we have enough hints from heavily invested beings (especially Sazed) that imply otherwise.

[Honorless he/him]

You're conflating the Beyond and the Spiritual Realm. Many people in world think they're the same, but they're not. The Beyond - whether it exists or if it's just non-existence is a philosophical question that Brandon does not wish to impose the answer to upon his readers, the Spiritual Realm is a confirmed plane of existence within the setting.

Quote

Ward

When Harmony Ascends, he admits he doesn't have a good view of the Spiritual Realm. Does he develop a better one over time? And are there other Shards that already have a very good view of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But it is still something that is hard to grok, so to speak, in-canon, *inaudible*, hard to understand. But he has a much better understanding, and the other Shards, some of them have a very good understanding. The thing is, the difference between the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond is not something that is immediately obvious.

Ward

So, the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. There are three Realms of existence. The Beyond, some would say... There are philosophers would would say, the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are one, that the soul gets sucked into and joins the Investiture. That's the idea of the One. But, most people would say the Beyond is not...

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Quote

dIvorrap

Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)

So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from Beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.

The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)

What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.

Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

General Reddit 2020 (June 5, 2020)

 

[Olmund]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

You're conflating the Beyond and the Spiritual Realm. Many people in world think they're the same, but they're not.

You're right -- it's been a bit since I saw those WoBs, and given the Oathbringer stuff with Nohadon & Evi (as well as Tien in Rhythm of War) I came to the conclusion that they were the same. It would make sense, given the idea of a "timeless" self in the spiritual realm that people can gain access to, but if Brandon says they're different then that's his prerogative.

I still think that if you could nail down Brandon and force him to answer the deeper mechanics that he refuses to comment on, he'd probably say that he believes cognitive shadows house the original consciousness of their living counterpart (though he wouldn't be willing to shoot down people who believe otherwise). The way he uses "The Beyond" as a synonym for "afterlife" already implies that the cognitive shadow is the same entity as the living creature in some respect -- because otherwise a cognitive shadow going to The Beyond would have no bearing on the "afterlife" of the living subject, if that makes sense. The fact that Vasher voices beliefs which contradict the idea of a shared consciousness between the living being and their subsequent cognitive shadow says more about his self-loathing and identity issues (in part brought on by Endowment's procedures) than anything else, with the added benefit that it introduces an interesting philosophical question for readers to chew on.

That said, I certainly have biases at play. I personally believe in the continuous locus of consciousness (i.e., you, the observer, do not cease to exist during deep sleep, nor could you wake up in someone else's body with their memories and no recollection of your prior experiences in other bodies), and I also believe that locus cannot be explained by physical matter (i.e., I believe that even if quantum physics manages to adequately explain everything else -- a tall order, given how many gaps are in the model so far -- I think the idea that the "observer" portion of consciousness can arise naturally by purely material and quantum means is merely substituting "god of the gaps" with "quantum mechanics of the gaps." It is my opinion that matter could, perhaps, produce autonomous life which behaves as if there are observers within each creature, but I don't believe it could actually produce the observers). Hence, I believe in some form of spiritual existence layered on top of our physical existence.

[Honorless he/him]

7 hours ago, Olmund said:

You're right -- it's been a bit since I saw those WoBs, and given the Oathbringer stuff with Nohadon & Evi (as well as Tien in Rhythm of War) I came to the conclusion that they were the same. It would make sense, given the idea of a "timeless" self in the spiritual realm that people can gain access to, but if Brandon says they're different then that's his prerogative.

I still think that if you could nail down Brandon and force him to answer the deeper mechanics that he refuses to comment on, he'd probably say that he believes cognitive shadows house the original consciousness of their living counterpart (though he wouldn't be willing to shoot down people who believe otherwise). The way he uses "The Beyond" as a synonym for "afterlife" already implies that the cognitive shadow is the same entity as the living creature in some respect -- because otherwise a cognitive shadow going to The Beyond would have no bearing on the "afterlife" of the living subject, if that makes sense. The fact that Vasher voices beliefs which contradict the idea of a shared consciousness between the living being and their subsequent cognitive shadow says more about his self-loathing and identity issues (in part brought on by Endowment's procedures) than anything else, with the added benefit that it introduces an interesting philosophical question for readers to chew on.

Yes, Brandon himself is religious.

[Leuthie]

I think the quote from Kelsier answers the question. His consciousness was shown in text as an unbroken sequence from alive to dead to "cognitive shadowed". The consciousness was told in the present and was never broken. Minutiae aside, that section shows that the author has created the world where cognitive shadows are direct continuations of the living person.

Parallel philosophical line from a different universe:

1. When you're transported in Star Trek, do you arrive at your destination, or are you destroyed and an exact copy is created at your destination?
2. Does it matter?

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

I think the quote from Kelsier answers the question. His consciousness was shown in text as an unbroken sequence from alive to dead to "cognitive shadowed". The consciousness was told in the present and was never broken. Minutiae aside, that section shows that the author has created the world where cognitive shadows are direct continuations of the living person.

Parallel philosophical line from a different universe:

1. When you're transported in Star Trek, do you arrive at your destination, or are you destroyed and an exact copy is created at your destination?
2. Does it matter?

As far as intellectual curiosity is concerned, yes it does.

[Olmund]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

I think the quote from Kelsier answers the question. His consciousness was shown in text as an unbroken sequence from alive to dead to "cognitive shadowed". The consciousness was told in the present and was never broken. Minutiae aside, that section shows that the author has created the world where cognitive shadows are direct continuations of the living person.

Parallel philosophical line from a different universe:

1. When you're transported in Star Trek, do you arrive at your destination, or are you destroyed and an exact copy is created at your destination?
2. Does it matter?

Though I agree with your conclusion, here's why the evidence is inconclusive: If Kelsier's cognitive shadow was a new consciousness with access to all of living Kelsier's memories at time of death, we would expect the cognitive shadow to act in the exact same manner and believe that he was a continuation of the living Kelsier (despite being a new consciousness). Basically the same as your Star Trek example, which they explored in a TNG episode where a character was beamed up from a planet's surface but the iteration on the surface was not erased, so there were now two iterations of the character (with one marooned on the planet). Both iterations believed themself to be a direct continuation of the original character's consciousness because they had access to the exact same memories up until the incident.

This is why I believe Star Trek beaming does, in fact, erase one consciousness and create another -- and I do think that has serious implications (so if I were to live in the Star Trek universe, I'd be personally averse to being beamed). I don't believe death in the Cosmere creates a new consciousness -- especially given the overlapping nature of the three realms, which make the creation unnecessary (though I'd also be averse to dying for obvious reasons).

[Morningtide she/her]

Personally, I think that a cognitive shadow is an imprint, or a shadow, of your "soul", or innate personality. In other words, a cognitive shadow is not a new you, or a new construction of you, but it is also not really "you". It's the thoughts, beliefs, and ideologies that make up the way you and others think of you. This fits with the idea of the cognitive realm being about how others perceive you (spren that change with how people think about them) 

In summary, your cognitive shadow, or the imprint left by your soul, is the the sum of how you are yourself and how others are you. 

Of course, this just my opinion, which fits with my personal beliefs.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 11/1/2021 at 0:03 PM, Leuthie said:

I think the quote from Kelsier answers the question. His consciousness was shown in text as an unbroken sequence from alive to dead to "cognitive shadowed". The consciousness was told in the present and was never broken. Minutiae aside, that section shows that the author has created the world where cognitive shadows are direct continuations of the living person.

There actually is a break when he merges with the Well, and then wakes up in it.

Quote

Fuzz wavered, and Kelsier could sense the divinity’s hesitance. It was followed by a sense of purpose, like a lamp being lit, and laughter.

Very well. Be Preserved, Kelsier. Survivor.

Something shoved him forward, and Kelsier merged with the light.

Moments later he blinked awake. He lay in the misty world still, but his body—or, well, his spirit—had re-formed. He lay in a pool of light like liquid metal. He could feel its warmth all around him, invigorating.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1.11.2021 at 8:15 PM, Olmund said:

Though I agree with your conclusion, here's why the evidence is inconclusive: If Kelsier's cognitive shadow was a new consciousness with access to all of living Kelsier's memories at time of death, we would expect the cognitive shadow to act in the exact same manner and believe that he was a continuation of the living Kelsier (despite being a new consciousness). Basically the same as your Star Trek example, which they explored in a TNG episode where a character was beamed up from a planet's surface but the iteration on the surface was not erased, so there were now two iterations of the character (with one marooned on the planet). Both iterations believed themself to be a direct continuation of the original character's consciousness because they had access to the exact same memories up until the incident.

The problem here is that this conflates consciousness with identity. We are reasonably sure that conciousness exists (if only in the sense an illusion exists), but identity may just be basically an invented fiction.

On 7.11.2021 at 2:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There actually is a break when he merges with the Well, and then wakes up in it.

True, but inconclusive. He may just have been hit hard on the head in a metaphysical sense.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

True, but inconclusive. He may just have been hit hard on the head in a metaphysical sense.

Agreed, just pointing out his PoV doesn't actually settle it.