Honor's Death, the Recreance, and Ba-Ado-Mishram

[nehalem]

Am I the only one that finds it strange that all 3 of these things occurred at the same time?

So the explanation for the Recreance is that Honor was going crazy and his ravings about Radiants destroying the world caused them to break their oaths.

To me that seems unsatisfying and a little like Brandon just needed an excuse to get rid of them.   It seems odd that everyone in 9/10 orders would abandon their oaths based on vague fears. And it seems especially odd when you consider that Skybreakers didn't break their oaths.  And they have access to the surge of division which seems like it would be one of the more dangerous surges.  So if the Radiants were really concerned with destroying the world again why did the Skybreakers stay behind?

Of course the other big thing that happened at the same time was the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram and the trapping of the Parshmen in slaveform.  It seems like this will be an important plot point in the 5th book.  Her imprisonment also had other effects.  From the wiki:

Mishram's binding damaged more than the singers, and according to the Sibling, touched the souls of "all who belong to Roshar," including the spren

It seems that one of those souls would be Honor, who just "coincidentally" died shortly thereafter  

Another important thing to consider is that originally Honor was the god of the singers.  In WOR Kaladin temporarily killed Syl because he put himself in a situation where he swore 2 contradictory oaths(to Moash: kill Elhokar, to Dalinar: protect Elhokar).  What if Honor had made an oath to protect the singers.  I read speculation from others about why humans didn't wipe out the singers between desolations.  What if the reason is Honor wouldn't let them as it would kill him?  So then when humans essentially did wipe them out he ended up dead.

So that leads to why the Recreance really occurred.  The Knights Radiant were trying to save Honor.  Perhaps the KR thought by abandoning their oaths it would atone for destroying the singers minds.  Or at the very least perhaps it allowed Honor's cognitive shadow to merge with the Stormfather allowing Odium to stay bound by the oathpact.

So in conclusion 9/10 Knights Radiant didn't abandon their oaths as part of some vague fears about destroying Roshar, but as part of a plan to directly protect Roshar from Odium.  That seems like a much better explanation for why nearly all of them would go along with it.  It could even explain why the Skybreakers stay behind.  They could consider Honor's death to be Justice for what happened to the singers, or that if too many KR existed it would put the Oathpact in danger and they stay behind to prune any future surgebinders.

 

[KnightsOfHonor]

I agree that there must be more to the Recreance than we know. Also, getting to know Syl and seeing how close she and Kaladin were / are becoming after such a relatively short time, it was obvious that the spren were in on it. The Knights and there spren are an inseparable team and one does not decide to do something like that without the other agreeing. Anyway, this makes me wonder why so many knights and spren chose to break the bond while there spren was manifested in the physical world as a sword? Why not just break the oath? Why pull the spren into the physical realm first? They did not know the whole elantrian zombie thing would happen, so maybe they just did if for show? That seems pretty lame to me. I think there is a bigger reason going on and them choosing to pull the spren into the physical realm first and then break the oath might be a hint. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by KnightsOfHonor
spelling

[+mdross81 he/him]

1 minute ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

Why not just break the oath? Why pull the spren into the physical realm first? 

From what we know of bonded spren, they are pretty much fully in the physical realm even when not manifested as a sword. So the question is more whether it would have made a difference if - say, for a Windrunner - they broke their oath while their spren was just flitting around as an honospren as opposed to them being manifested as a Shardblade. I feel like it might not have made a difference and when the Knight forsook their oath, a dead Blade would have dropped anyway.

And to the OP @nehalem, we should hopefully get answers to the connection between these three events in the fifth book. I’m not sure your theorizing fully takes into account the sprens’ role in the Recreance.

I’m assuming you’ve finished RoW, but spoilering just in case:

Spoiler

Remember “WE CHOSE!”

And when Adolin asked Maya why later, she suggesed it was to stop a potentially worse outcome. So it wasn’t just the Knights but their spren as well choosing  

There are a number of different threads where folks have tried to figure out the sequence of events. To me, the biggest question is who the Radiants were fighting just before events depicted in the Feverstone Keep vision. It seems like they made the decision to abandon Urithiru after the imprisonment of BAM, which had caused the Tower’s functions to fail. But if that’s the case, then the singers would have been lobotomized and would not be the opposing force that the Radiants were fighting. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:10 PM, mdross81 said:

It seems like they made the decision to abandon Urithiru after the imprisonment of BAM, which had caused the Tower’s functions to fail.

I've actually come around to the idea that some of the gems were before, and some were after. The Sibling speaks of it as when they "banished men from these halls", which wouldn't make sense if people only left after the Sibling was knocked out, and it's not fully clear if there's a specific chronological order to the gems or not. It may be that they started the process of abandoning the Tower earlier, when Honor was dying and the Sibling was turning against them (after all, staying in a place where the building itself is hostile to you is both dangerous and rather rude), and then BAM's capture happened while this was going on, because Urithiru is massive and evacuating it would take a while. (In fact, if the Sibling really did order the Oathgates to shut prior to their "sleep", as has been indicated in the book, leaving the Tower might've had to proceed solely a.) via the flying orders and b.) via the passage into the mountains, which would slow it down a lot.)

Edited October 30, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+mdross81 he/him]

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've actually come around to the idea that some of the gems were before, and some were after. The Sibling speaks of it as when they "banished men from these halls", which wouldn't make sense if people only left after the Sibling was knocked out, and it's not fully clear if there's a specific chronological order to the gems or not.

Definitely seems possible that some were recorded pre- and others post-capture of BAM. I imagine at this point pretty much all questions related to Recreance/BAM will be RAFO’d given that book 5 will (hopefully) have answers. One thing I’ve wondered, though, is whether Brandon might answer something about the duration of the period of time over which the gems in the archive we’re recorded.

One quibble: I don’t think BAM was necessarily “knocked out” by the capture of BAM, as they seem to be able to tell Navani about experiences afterward (being unable to hear the tones/rhythms and therefore unable to produce Towerlight). Seems more likely to me that the Sibling’s slumber began with the death of Honor.

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It may be that they started the process of abandoning the Tower earlier, when Honor was dying and the Sibling was turning against them (after all, staying in a place where the building itself is hostile to you is both dangerous and rather rude), and then BAM's capture happened while this was going on, because Urithiru is massive and evacuating it would take a while. (In fact, if the Sibling really did order the Oathgates to shut prior to their "sleep", as has been indicated in the book, leaving the Tower might've had to proceed solely a.) via the flying orders and b.) via the passage into the mountains, which would slow it down a lot.)

That’s an interesting point I hadn’t previously considered about how they would have carried out the evacuation without the Oathgates.

Although it seems like travel between Oathgates was still possible right? It was the transitioning in and out of Shadesmar that was forbidden I thought:

Quote

Long ago, a mysterious spren named the Sibling had lived in Urithiru. It was now dead. Or sleeping. Or maybe that was the same thing. Spren answers about the Sibling contradicted one another. In any case, before dying, the Sibling had commanded these sentries to stop allowing people into Shadesmar.

Which, if true, raises the question: why did the Sibling specifically forbid access to Shadesmar? Maybe just to keep the humans from seeking out any remaining Radiant spren? To hide the existence of deadeyes? To prevent off-world travel?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

Although it seems like travel between Oathgates was still possible right? It was the transitioning in and out of Shadesmar that was forbidden I thought:

Ah, you may be right, I might be conflating the Oathgates (besides Stormseat's) being locked with the Sibling's command about Shadesmar. Interesting. 

Quote

Which, if true, raises the question: why did the Sibling specifically forbid access to Shadesmar? Maybe just to keep the humans from seeking out any remaining Radiant spren? To hide the existence of deadeyes? To prevent off-world travel?

Hmm. My guess would be that either shortly after the Recreance or shortly before (depending on if other spren at the time were growing hesitant about humans like the Sibling was), they cut off travel to prevent negotiation with the Radiant spren, to try and prevent bonds, perhaps? But I'm not sure, because they don't really seem opposed to willing bonds, just unwilling imprisonment. Really good question I haven't considered. 

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

One quibble: I don’t think BAM was necessarily “knocked out” by the capture of BAM, as they seem to be able to tell Navani about experiences afterward (being unable to hear the tones/rhythms and therefore unable to produce Towerlight). Seems more likely to me that the Sibling’s slumber began with the death of Honor.

I can't recall if it's explicitly stated or not, but I've been assuming it was BAM's capture because of the archive. Honor was alive for the Recreance, but the gems would've had to be before that since, y'know, Radiants lol. And yet by the time of some of the gems, the Sibling has already "withdrawn" (and not "by intent"), which makes me think the death/sleep has to do with BAM's capture and/or actions around that time (the spren seem to think the Sibling cut off their bond shortly before the Recreance, which could either be an effect of their slumber and withdraw, or could be part of the cause of it if the bond was strong), rather than Honor's death.

[+mdross81 he/him]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I can't recall if it's explicitly stated or not, but I've been assuming it was BAM's capture because of the archive. Honor was alive for the Recreance, but the gems would've had to be before that since, y'know, Radiants lol. And yet by the time of some of the gems, the Sibling has already "withdrawn" (and not "by intent"), which makes me think the death/sleep has to do with BAM's capture and/or actions around that time (the spren seem to think the Sibling cut off their bond shortly before the Recreance, which could either be an effect of their slumber and withdraw, or could be part of the cause of it if the bond was strong), rather than Honor's death.

In case I wasn’t clear, I definitely think that the withdrawal/loss of function “not by intent” was due to the capture. I just think that the slumber part maybe didn’t happen until Honor’s splintering. And I say that because there’s at a least some suggestion by the Sibling that the slumber was in part intentional:

Quote

She thinks that I must be dead after all this time, since the tower doesn’t work.

“Curious,” Navani said. “Why would she think that?”

The Midnight Mother told her. That Unmade who infected me for so many years, the one your Radiants frightened away? I remained hidden from her all that time, never fighting back, and so she thinks I died.

“All that time?” Navani asked. “How long?”

Centuries.

“Wasn’t that hard?”

No. Why? Centuries mean nothing to me. I do not age.

That makes it seem like the Sibling had some control over seeming asleep. I also think that the slumber may have been intentional because of something Sja-anat says:

Quote

During the long millennia before this Return, she’d mostly slumbered. Without her bond to Odium she had trouble thinking. The Everstorm appearing in Shadesmar—long before it had emerged into the Physical Realm—had revitalized her. Had let her begin planning again.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

And I say that because there’s at a least some suggestion by the Sibling that the slumber was in part intentional:

I'm not sure. From what the Sibling says in another chapter, it sounds like they've been forcing it the past year or so, but that before Dalinar was sworn, they really were knocked out, so to speak:

Quote

The Sibling didn’t respond at first. I’m not sure, they said. I have avoided your kind. You were supposed to think I was dead. Everyone was supposed to think I was dead.

“I’m glad you’re not. You said you were the soul of the tower. Can you restore its functions?”

No, the voice said. I really was asleep. Until … a Bondsmith. I felt a Bondsmith. But the tower is not functional, and I have not the Light to restart it.

But that doesn't fully contradict what you said, either, there's an interpretation that'd fit still if they woke up intentionally when they felt a Bondsmith. That quote you found is curious, though, so perhaps it really was something they did purposefully.

A related note on the general topic: reading through the gem archive and sorting the entries by reverse drawer number (Coppermind's table is very helpful), I wonder if the new Radiants just... got the order backwards, lol. After all, there's no real reason they'd know what the old Radiants used in their own numbering system, and starting at the wrong end is a pretty simple way to mess up. If you read it sorted the other way around, we in order have:

• Start off with them talking about the plan
• Have people saying goodbye to the Tower, but not anything about its functions
• Have the first mentions of divisions growing to truly scary levels
• A gem saying that Honor seems to be changing, as we know he was in the final days
• Have the Elsecallers saying they will take the burden of protecting "Honor's Drop", a perfect ruby
• A mention that the enemy is pushing towards Feverstone Keep
• More people saying goodbye, but again, no mention of loss of function
• As we get towards the very end, we finally have a mention of not being safe from the Unmade, which may refer to Re-Shephir's incursion, as well as generally the protections failing (the first mention of anything stopping working)
• A couple more people talking about leaving
• In the very first/last drawer (1-1), we have the zircons that discuss the Sibling's withdrawal

Which in that order, makes a lot more sense with the timeline we know, imo.

[+mdross81 he/him]

34 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Which in that order, makes a lot more sense with the timeline we know, imo.

I had the same thought the last time I did a close read through them all. Reverse order makes a lot more sense.

Edit: if that’s the correct order, the capture would have occurred between your seventh and eighth bullet, which ALSO fits with the idea that they were able to entrap Re-Shephir after they figured it out with BAM

Edited October 30, 2021 by mdross81

[Letryx13]

The Recreance always seemed odd to me.  Everyone called the radiants traitors, but no one ever really said what they did. So finding out about the spren's choice was both surprising and felt completely real.  One thing I've been wondering about is how people will try to help the dead-eye spren, now that they know they can recover.  Many will try to do so in the hope of becoming radiant, I suspect. But one idea that I had a while back, would be if somehow, BAM connected with the dead-eye spren, and somehow did a reverse of what happened when she was imprisoned last time.  Instead of damaging the singers, somehow she heals the spren.

I realize this is extremely unrealistic, but I thought it was a neat idea.  And your title combining the Recreance and Ba-Ado-Mishram reminded me of this theory.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Edit: if that’s the correct order, the capture would have occurred between your seventh and eighth bullet, which ALSO fits with the idea that they were able to entrap Re-Shephir after they figured it out with BAM

Hmmm good point, could definitely be.