Mapping Scadrial

[StanLemon]

Just a clarification, only the Central Dominance is explicitly described as having mild winters. Not the entire Final Empire 

[AquaRegia he/him]

10 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Vin's vision in the Well in WoA... "a magnificent sphere upon which life could exist only in a small little area at the poles."

YES, that would be it.  Thanks so much!  I thought I was hallucinating.

On 12/16/2021 at 3:26 PM, Jofwu said:

To be clear, when Rashek Ascended he moved the Well of Ascension from somewhere at or near the geographic north pole down to somewhere more temperate. Still probably at high latitudes, but presumably low enough to give "normal" day-night cycles throughout the year.

But then the whole planet's magnetic pole was realigned to the new WoA location. So when anything says the Final Empire is at a "pole" it's referring to the magnetic pole. Not the geographic pole.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this can be true.  An excerpt from the Coppermind page on Rashek:

Quote

he changed many aspects of life on Scadrial, in order to save the world from the Deepness. ... He moved the planet closer to its sun in an attempt to burn the mists away. The new orbit was too close to the sun, and he created active volcanoes to produce large amounts of ash and smoke to cool down the world. ... The Terris mountains were flattened, and new mountains were raised in the north in order to hide the location of the Well of Ascension.

The whole point of the Ashmounts was to shade and cool the surface, since the sun was now too intense at the planet's new orbit.  The quote from WoA above seems to support the idea that even with this ash-driven cooling, life is restricted to only very near the GEOGRAPHIC poles, and everywhere else is simply too hot.  The Southern Scadrians, presumably near the south pole but lacking the proximity of the Ashmounts, adapted (or were changed) to prefer much higher temperatures, as we see later in BoM.

Can you share your reasoning and evidence for the "magnetic pole" interpretation?

[Jofwu he/him]

2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Can you share your reasoning and evidence for the "magnetic pole" interpretation?

(And I'll tag @Oltux72 because I'm not sure if they were asking something similar?)

It's from the HoA annotations:

Quote

 The North Pole

One of my big challenges in the geography of this world was figuring out how we could have a kingdom set at the pole of the world while at the same time maintaining a normal day/night cycle. My original plan was for the Well of Ascension to be located a distance to the north of Luthadel, up at the geographic north pole of the planet. When I was revising the second book, I realized that wouldn't work for various reasons. (More on this on the MISTBORN 2 Alternate Ending deleted scene page.) I changed things so that when the Lord Ruler held the power in the Well, he decoupled the geographic north pole and the magnetic north pole.

In our world, the magnetic north pole is located about eleven degrees of latitude south of the geographic north pole. On Scadrial, the two poles were originally in the same location. When the Lord Ruler moved the planet too close to its sun and realized he didn't have the control to place the planet in the proper orbit, he created the ashmounts to cool the atmosphere. He also wanted to keep access to the Well under his control, so he decided to build his capital city right above it. However, he realized that on a planet with a tilted axis, a city at the north pole would have seasonal daylight variation so extreme that at the height of summer the sun would never set and during the dead of winter the sun would never rise. He could remove the axis's tilt, but that would just make the sun perpetually skirt the horizon all year round.

What Rashek decided to do (and he had to make split-second decisions in the brief time he held the power) was to shift the crust of the whole planet so that the Well was at a latitude that would have more standard seasonal variation, and to re-create the Terris mountains in the new North (to maintain the rumors that the Well was located there). He worried that the new location of Luthadel would be too hot due to the latitude, but it turned out that moving the Well created an unexpected effect. The planet's magnetic pole followed the Well as he relocated it—and the ash from the ashmounts was slightly ferromagnetic. (Ferromagnetic volcanic ash has some precedent in our world.) So the interaction of the ash with the planet's magnetic field's new alignment meant that its protective cloak over the area of the Final Empire caused it to be cooler than the now unprotected geographic north pole.

One side effect of this is that all compasses point toward Luthadel. Since it's been that way for a thousand years, no one finds it odd–in fact, it's used as evidence of the Lord Ruler's divinity. It also makes it mathematically very easy to pinpoint one's exact location in the Final Empire using a combination of the compass reading and noon observations. Not that it's easy to get lost in the Final Empire in the first place—the geographical area of the planet's surface that the Final Empire covers is actually quite small.

Ultimately, when it comes down to sophisticated geography and astrophysics, I'm out of my element. If there are mistakes in my reasoning above, that is why I write fantasy and not hard sf.

And I still haven't said anything about what happened at the south pole.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 4, 2010)

I don't recall any evidence suggesting that the axial tilt was affected by Rashek, but nothing to say he didn't I guess. *shrug* (If he did, I'm sure Sazed restored it to what it was before. If he didn't, I'm sure Sazed didn't.)

[cometaryorbit]

Sazed does say the star charts preserved by the Keepers are considered inaccurate/useless. Merely moving the planet's orbit from Earth like to Venus like would not change the apparent position/movement of the stars (the other planets, somewhat, but Scadrial's system has no other inner planets from the AU chart & essay - so even that would not be hugely dramatic).

OTOH, a change in either the obliquity (degree of tilt) or the direction the axis points would change the apparent motion of the stars - the North Star would change, and which stars were circumpolar would change. This would mean a significantly different sky at say, Britain like latitudes.

--

Given that the original idea was to put the Well (but not Luthadel) at the geographic North pole, I think that does suggest Brandon imagined Luthadel to be at a quite high (though not polar) latitude.

[AquaRegia he/him]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Sazed does say the star charts preserved by the Keepers are considered inaccurate/useless. Merely moving the planet's orbit from Earth like to Venus like would not change the apparent position/movement of the stars (the other planets, somewhat, but Scadrial's system has no other inner planets from the AU chart & essay - so even that would not be hugely dramatic).

Au contraire, mon frere.  From tHoA, ch. 82:

Quote

There had been a people known as the Nelazan.  They had worshipped the stars, had called them the Thousand Eyes of their god, Trell, watching them.  From the Nelazan, the Keepers had recovered star charts, and had dutifully recorded them - even though scholars had called them useless, since they hadn't been accurate since the days before the Ascension.  Yet, from these star charts, and from the patterns and movements of the other planets in the solar system they outlined, Sazed could determine exactly where the world was supposed to sit in orbit.  He put the planet back into its old place - not pushing too hard, as the Lord Ruler once had, for he had a frame of reference by which to measure.

Interesting that here is yet another reference to Trell.

Thank you @Jofwu for posting that.  Regarding the decoupling of the magnetic pole from the geographic pole and "ferromagnetic volcanic ash" issue, I think I'm just going to have to accept that either Brandon or I (quite possibly both LOL) don't understand geophysics well enough for all the available facts to truly make sense. 

That said, I don't think it violates any established canon to speculate that the entirety of the Final Empire was located in the 65°-75° latitude range, as you initially proposed.  You get very hung up on the Arctic Circle... but that's an EARTH thing.  All that is required is a smaller axial tilt, say 5°, such that no part of the FE lies within the tiny Scadrian version of the Arctic Circle.  There would be mild seasonal variations (confirmed in the text), most of the planet would be too hot for human habitation (also confirmed in the text), and the length of daylight would vary only slightly in most populated regions.  While I am aware that "lack of evidence" is not "evidence of lack", I think the fact that seasonal variations in daylight are never once mentioned in the text is notable.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

The whole point of the Ashmounts was to shade and cool the surface, since the sun was now too intense at the planet's new orbit.  The quote from WoA above seems to support the idea that even with this ash-driven cooling, life is restricted to only very near the GEOGRAPHIC poles, and everywhere else is simply too hot.  The Southern Scadrians, presumably near the south pole but lacking the proximity of the Ashmounts, adapted (or were changed) to prefer much higher temperatures, as we see later in BoM.

How near is near? 10 degrees or 30 degrees? Or whatever?

11 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

That said, I don't think it violates any established canon to speculate that the entirety of the Final Empire was located in the 65°-75° latitude range, as you initially proposed.  You get very hung up on the Arctic Circle... but that's an EARTH thing.  All that is required is a smaller axial tilt, say 5°, such that no part of the FE lies within the tiny Scadrian version of the Arctic Circle.  There would be mild seasonal variations (confirmed in the text), most of the planet would be too hot for human habitation (also confirmed in the text), and the length of daylight would vary only slightly in most populated regions.  While I am aware that "lack of evidence" is not "evidence of lack", I think the fact that seasonal variations in daylight are never once mentioned in the text is notable.

That indeed was my train of thought. I concur.

[cometaryorbit]

2 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Au contraire, mon frere.  From tHoA, ch. 82:

Oh, yeah, the movements of the other planets were certainly a clue as to where Scadrial's orbit should be. The difference in the apparent position/movement of gas giants wouldn't be that gigantic, but would definitely be noticeable.

It's more the "scholars had called them useless" part I am talking about. If the only change was the orbit itself (not obliquity or the direction of the axes) the regular stars (not planets) would be completely accurate within the limits of what could be detected at their level of technology. A 30 million mile change won't make a detectable (to FE era technology) difference in the positions of stars light-years away.

(The difference between Earth's position in summer and winter is about 186 million miles, and stellar parallax was not measured -- despite centuries of looking for it -- until the 1830s.)

6 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

That said, I don't think it violates any established canon to speculate that the entirety of the Final Empire was located in the 65°-75° latitude range, as you initially proposed.  You get very hung up on the Arctic Circle... but that's an EARTH thing.  All that is required is a smaller axial tilt, say 5°, such that no part of the FE lies within the tiny Scadrian version of the Arctic Circle.

I think an axial tilt somewhat less than Earth makes the most sense (at least in Era 1). Since the HOA annotation says that Rashek could have removed the axial tilt, it must not be zero or very close like the Moon or Mercury - but a tilt much less than Earth's would work. The seasons would be distinct enough to name, and to matter for some things (we see the term "summerfruit" in the first book, so I think they are distinct enough to matter agriculturally, even before WOA's unusually cold winter) - but much milder than one would expect from Earth analogies.

Day length may be a messier issue than it looks, due to Era 1 Scadrial's messed up atmosphere. Their daylight may be very diffused by the atmosphere; in a high latitude, where the sun would be near the horizon a lot, "day length" as measured by useful daylight might be very different from "day length" as measured by the sun being above the horizon. (IE it might be effectively "daylight" even with the sun a few degrees below the horizon, especially as we know TLR adapted humans to live in the World of Ash - their vision might work better with ash-and-volcanic-aerosol-cloud diffused sunlight than ours).

[+Oltux72 he/him]

 

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

(The difference between Earth's position in summer and winter is about 186 million miles, and stellar parallax was not measured -- despite centuries of looking for it -- until the 1830s.)

That is even true if we assume that the stars of the Cosmere are closer together than stars in our part of our galaxy, as a certain map suggests. There is a lower limit if you want stable systems and cometary clouds over geological time periods.

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think an axial tilt somewhat less than Earth makes the most sense (at least in Era 1). Since the HOA annotation says that Rashek could have removed the axial tilt, it must not be zero or very close like the Moon or Mercury - but a tilt much less than Earth's would work. The seasons would be distinct enough to name, and to matter for some things (we see the term "summerfruit" in the first book, so I think they are distinct enough to matter agriculturally, even before WOA's unusually cold winter) - but much milder than one would expect from Earth analogies.

In fact, now that you mention it, doesn't Vin more or less outright say that the Final Empire is located at very high latitudes? It is habitable by their standards and only a small fraction of the planet is habitable.

 

[cometaryorbit]

14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

In fact, now that you mention it, doesn't Vin more or less outright say that the Final Empire is located at very high latitudes? It is habitable by their standards and only a small fraction of the planet is habitable.

 

She says "at the poles", but unfortunately that is ambiguous- geographic or magnetic poles?

--

I think it works best with Era 1 having a somewhat lower axial tilt than Earth, the Final Empire being outside the smaller arctic circle but still very high latitudes, but Era 2 being a closer earth analogue, with Harmony moving the continental plate to put Elendel in a much warmer area.

(For example, continuing with the Britain comparison, London is about 51.5N and Edinburgh is about 56N - about 10 - 15 degrees from Earth's arctic circle at about 66.5N. If Era 1 Scadrial had a 10 degree tilt and its arctic circle was at 80N, Luthadel might be at something like 65-70N.)

Elendel in Era 2 is probably somewhere in the 30s latitude, somewhere between a Mediterranean climate and a humid subtropical one. (Usually you get humid subtropical on east/southeast coasts, but I think the Basin is not dry enough for a true Mediterranean climate.)

-

I'm most surprised by how large the Final Empire is. I always imagined it as maybe the size of Texas or a large European country like France or Germany.  But I suppose given the population and harshness of the land, it needs to be large.

Edited December 21, 2021 by cometaryorbit
added more comments on latitudes + size

[+Oltux72 he/him]

55 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

She says "at the poles", but unfortunately that is ambiguous- geographic or magnetic poles?

The magnetic pole does not matter for climate, does it?

[AquaRegia he/him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The magnetic pole does not matter for climate, does it?

For us on Earth, no, it doesn't - at least, not in any way I know of.

Sanderson, however, has invoked the idea of "ferromagnetic volcanic ash" that somehow interacts with Scadrial's magnetic field, making the magnetic north pole region somehow cooler than the actual geographic pole.

At this point, I'm OK with saying "it's just a fantasy novel, it doesn't HAVE to makes scientific sense."  ;-)

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

For us on Earth, no, it doesn't - at least, not in any way I know of.

Sanderson, however, has invoked the idea of "ferromagnetic volcanic ash" that somehow interacts with Scadrial's magnetic field, making the magnetic north pole region somehow cooler than the actual geographic pole.

I believe the idea is that the ash being magnetic makes it linger near the magnetic pole, so the magnetic pole receives less solar energy and is therefore cooler.

This isn't exactly how it would work in RL, I don't think-- for one thing, the primary cooling effect from major eruptions is due to aerosols in the upper atmosphere (e.g. sulfates from sulfur dioxide/trioxide gas) rather than the actual volcanic ash. For another, the Ashmounts being there seems sufficient to make most of the ash be there, no magnetism needed.

But then, the Ashmounts aren't normal RL volcanoes, they're artificial ones created by someone temporarily holding godlike power.

[AquaRegia he/him]

Bringing this topic - always close to my heart - back again, since now we have a lot more new information.

I understand and appreciate this forum is not yet cleared for spoilers from The Lost Metal... but there's a NEW MAP in there, and Isaac told us

where

the

rusting

EQUATOR

is.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508-dragonsteel-2022/#e15856

Trust me, I promise it's not spoilery at all.  But just in case:

Spoiler

apparently Elendel sits at just about 10 degrees north latitude.

@Jofwu @Oltux72 @cometaryorbit

Edited December 7, 2022 by Ookla of axi
Calling all members of the Scadrial Canton of Cartography

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 4.12.2022 at 3:24 AM, Ookla of axi said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508-dragonsteel-2022/#e15856

 

Trust me, I promise it's not spoilery at all.  But just in case:

  Hide contents

apparently Elendel sits at just about 10 degrees north latitude.

@Jofwu @Oltux72 @cometaryorbit

Yes, I need to conclude that Scadrial is in a wider orbit than the Earth. And that raises the point why they still have seasons in the Basin. Axial tilt must be extreme.

[Jofwu he/him]

TLM

Spoiler

Frankly, I think think there must be a magical explanation. I prefer to imagine Harmony directly having a hand on the region's thermostat for some reason.

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, I need to conclude that Scadrial is in a wider orbit than the Earth. And that raises the point why they still have seasons in the Basin. Axial tilt must be extreme.

Immediate thoughts (I haven't taken a lot of time to think yet):

Something very strange must be going on if the region occupied by the Malwish (extending into southern mid-latitudes) is significantly WARMER than the coastal equatorial climate in the Elendel Basin.  I'm not sure axial tilt is available as a reasonable explanation; both day/night and seasonal cycles would be crazy away from the equator.  Much of Malwish territory would be in perpetual daylight or darkness for chunks of a year, and it would be EXTREMELY cold in winter - WAY more so than an equatorial location could ever get.  The Bilming broadsheet is titled "The Three Seasons", which implies less seasonal variation than we are used to here on earth, and I don't recall any of the four E2 novels indicating any important differences in seasonal weather or length of day.

Spoiler

I remain grumpy that while we are told ambassadors have been exchanged (and tourism is even a thing), we gained ZERO knowledge of what the Malwish nations are like - culture, geography, or climate - beyond what we learned in BoM.

I note on Isaac's most recent map that the N-S scale lengthens away from the equator, just as one would expect from a Mercator-style projection.  I'm assuming for now that those grid lines represent divisions of 16 degrees, but I'm way too lazy to verify whether this is consistent with earlier estimates.  In any case, I think @Jofwu must be right.

[Treamayne]

Please keep all TLM material in the appropriate spoiler section.

18 hours ago, Ookla of axi said:

Something very strange must be going on if the region occupied by the Malwish (extending into southern mid-latitudes) is significantly WARMER than the coastal equatorial climate in the Elendel Basin.

The Southern Scadrian territories are not warmer than the Elendel Basin, nor the Southern Roughs. Remember, they need the firemothers to make bronzemind medallions just to survive their own territory too.

Rashek moved the continents to the poles when he moved the planet closer to the sun. He used ashmounts and genetic changes in the north to keep the area "cool" and help them survive - but he used neither of these in the south. So, over a millenium, the SoScads naturally adapted to a much hotter climate. 

When Harmony restored the planet to its original orbit and the continents to their original locations; their new physiology is incompatible with the current, normal, climate.

WoB:

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

South Scadrians have low natural body temperature. This is related to their cold intolerance

I think it is more like taking somebody from (for example) southern Texas who has never seen snow and letting them visit Michigan in May. The temp will be 50s-60s and the locals will be wearing shorts and t-shirts while the Texan will be bundled in a jacket and still feel "cold." 

[Jofwu he/him]

Seeing as people want to talk about this and the topic is pointless to proceed without the new map in TLM, I'm going to move this topic to the TLM spoiler board.

[Jofwu he/him]

Yeah, I don't think there's anything weird about the Southerner climate. I don't think there's any implication that their own climate is significantly more suitable than the north. Kelsier found them "freezing to death" and needing medallions in their own homeland.

22 hours ago, Ookla of axi said:

I'm assuming for now that those grid lines represent divisions of 16 degrees

I actually see no reason to suppose that they are different from an actual Mercator projection at this point. I was supposing other ideas to try to make sense of the grid on the Basin map, but I don't see any rhyme or reason behind that grid now. I'm left imagining that it's some alternate grid system.

I'm going to assume they're using 360 degrees and the map has 15 degree spaces until evidence to the contrary shows up.

Certainly it could be a situation where they're using 256 degrees per circle, so 16 spaces of 16 degrees? Actually, that particular idea I'm skeptical about. Because that puts the southern tip of the southern continent almost at the geographic south pole, and I doubt that's the case. I mean, maybe they use... 16x24=384 degree circles??? Maybe.

Here's the map on top of a Mercator projection by the way, assuming the lines are at 15 degrees:

[Frustration he/him]

55 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Yeah, I don't think there's anything weird about the Southerner climate. I don't think there's any implication that their own climate is significantly more suitable than the north. Kelsier found them "freezing to death" and needing medallions in their own homeland.

I actually see no reason to suppose that they are different from an actual Mercator projection at this point. I was supposing other ideas to try to make sense of the grid on the Basin map, but I don't see any rhyme or reason behind that grid now. I'm left imagining that it's some alternate grid system.

I'm going to assume they're using 360 degrees and the map has 15 degree spaces until evidence to the contrary shows up.

Certainly it could be a situation where they're using 256 degrees per circle, so 16 spaces of 16 degrees? Actually, that particular idea I'm skeptical about. Because that puts the southern tip of the southern continent almost at the geographic south pole, and I doubt that's the case. I mean, maybe they use... 16x24=384 degree circles??? Maybe.

Here's the map on top of a Mercator projection by the way, assuming the lines are at 15 degrees:

Oh, dang that is way further south than I thought. No wonder it took Alendi months to get to the North Pole. Though that begs the question about how big this continent really is.

[AquaRegia he/him]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Oh, dang that is way further south than I thought. No wonder it took Alendi months to get to the North Pole. Though that begs the question about how big this continent really is.

We really don't know where Alendi and Rashek started from, though, right?  Only the barest hints about the geography of Khlennium survived.

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The Southern Scadrian territories are not warmer than the Elendel Basin, nor the Southern Roughs. Remember, they need the firemothers to make bronzemind medallions just to survive their own territory too.

Not gonna lie, very little about the whole "Ice Death" thing makes any sense to me, to the point where I just sort of put it out of my mind.  The SoScads spent literally 300 years "freezing to death"?  That's 15 generations.  I'd think people would either find a way to cope or die out long before that.  And in all those years, Harmony did nothing for them?  How is Allik managing (thriving, it seems) without any metalminds?  Maybe I'll make another topic about it.

Back to the original discussion, the Basin being tropical does make some sense in terms of 1) a very mild and hospitable climate, 2) little to no seasonal weather variations, and 3) no noticeable variations in length of day/night.  But it sure does wipe out a lot of our earlier speculation about E2 geography.  How well does the new map agree with distance estimates made previously, and does it help to better determine the size of the planet as a whole?

[Treamayne]

13 minutes ago, Ookla of axi said:

The SoScads spent literally 300 years "freezing to death"? 

You must have really misunderstood.

The Sovereign came to them 12 years post-catacendre - and in that 12 years, they lost an unspecified significant portion of their population, and suffered a near-collapse of their entire society. 

13 minutes ago, Ookla of axi said:

We really don't know where Alendi and Rashek started from, though, right?  Only the barest hints about the geography of Khlennium survived.

They started with what is the current map. HoA Ch 82

Spoiler

There had been a people called the Bennet. They had considered mapmaking to be a solemn duty; Sazed had once preached their religion to Kelsier himself. From their detailed maps and charts, Sazed discovered how the world had once looked. He used his powers to restore the continents and oceans, the islands and coastlines, the mountains and rivers.

There had been a people known as the Nelazan. They had worshipped the stars, had called them the Thousand Eyes of their god, Trell, watching them. Sazed remembered well offering the religion to the young Vin while she had sat, captive, undergoing her first haircut with the crew. From the Nelazan, the Keepers had recovered star charts, and had dutifully recorded them—even though scholars had called them useless, since they hadn’t been accurate since the days before the Ascension. Yet, from these star charts, and from the patterns and movements of the other planets in the solar system they outlined, Sazed could determine exactly where the world was supposed to sit in orbit. He put the planet back into its old place—not pushing too hard, as the Lord Ruler once had, for he had a frame of reference by which to measure.

Unless you meant we don't know where on the map Khlennium was located - that is true. 

Coppermind

Spoiler

During the classical era on Scadrial, Khlennium's location was relatively central — between the isles in the South and the Terris hills in the North, and between the great nations to the east and the fiery empire of the West.

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Treamayne
Reference

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Ookla of axi said:

Back to the original discussion, the Basin being tropical does make some sense in terms of 1) a very mild and hospitable climate,

It snows there. Not a lot, but it does. How high are the mountains where the Bands were kept supposed to be to have that harsh a climate?

Why do their houses have fireplaces? And they are wearing suits and vests? In what is geographically speaking Dakar?

Marasi was buying locally grown apples. In central Africa?

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

All excellent questions.  If the same geophysical laws operate as here on earth, then the Elendel Basin - at sea level and less than 10° from the equator - is in the warmest, wettest, and most consistent climate zone on the planet.  @Oltux72 is correct in comparing its location to that of Dakar on the coast of West Africa, which has average daily temperatures around 28 °C (83 °F) and average night lows of 21 °C (70 °F).  The all-time record low temperature in Dakar is 14 °C (57 °F).

Given that it does snow in Elendel, the warmest place in the world... most OTHER places on Scadrial should be VERY cold indeed.

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You must have really misunderstood.

Agreed, that's painfully clear.  I'm still working on getting it straight.

So the Southern Scadrians have lived for 300+ years in a place too cold for them, where they need magical technology powered by dedicated metalborn slaves just to survive... and never considered moving someplace warmer?  What's Kelsier been doing all this time?  What about Marsh, and Harmony, and all the Kandra?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that both of these cultures, North and South, have apparently somehow coexisted on the same landmass for 300+ years without any contact.  I guess we are supposed to infer that there is the Scadrian equivalent of the Himalayas separating them... but both sides surely must have had boats for quite a while now, right?  One side has railroads and the other side airships, for Harmony's sake.  By 1850 on earth, people had explored (and colonized) every coastline not covered with ice.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

31 minutes ago, Ookla of axi said:

All excellent questions.  If the same geophysical laws operate as here on earth, then the Elendel Basin - at sea level and less than 10° from the equator - is in the warmest, wettest, and most consistent climate zone on the planet.  @Oltux72 is correct in comparing its location to that of Dakar on the coast of West Africa, which has average daily temperatures around 28 °C (83 °F) and average night lows of 21 °C (70 °F).  The all-time record low temperature in Dakar is 14 °C (57 °F).

Given that it does snow in Elendel, the warmest place in the world... most OTHER places on Scadrial should be VERY cold indeed.

Agreed, that's painfully clear.  I'm still working on getting it straight.

So the Southern Scadrians have lived for 300+ years in a place too cold for them, where they need magical technology powered by dedicated metalborn slaves just to survive... and never considered moving someplace warmer?  What's Kelsier been doing all this time?  What about Marsh, and Harmony, and all the Kandra?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that both of these cultures, North and South, have apparently somehow coexisted on the same landmass for 300+ years without any contact.  I guess we are supposed to infer that there is the Scadrian equivalent of the Himalayas separating them... but both sides surely must have had boats for quite a while now, right?  One side has railroads and the other side airships, for Harmony's sake.  By 1850 on earth, people had explored (and colonized) every coastline not covered with ice.

There's some really fantastic observations here! Personally, I've always seen the Basin itself as magically Invested to create the most livable climate all year round. We've seen that the Roughs are warmer than the Basin, despite sitting at a similar point above the equator. 

Regarding the non-Interactions of the people, I think there are a few points to consider. For one, both societies were almost completely destroyed during the Catacendre, which would've taken a lot of time to recover from - both physically and culturally. We also know that the relatively 'easy' life of the Basin slowed their technological progress and, likely, their explorative progress as well. Why travel over the Himalayas or across tumulted seas when all the food and wealth is in the Basin? 

Another point to consider is that the Malwish Continent isn't a happy one. We know there's five main cultures throughout the continent, and it's likely they would've been fairly combative over the medallions during the past three-hundred years. Maybe that would've slowed their exploratory progress northward? We don't know how long they've had airships either - that might be a (relatively) recent invention. 

Regretfully though, the Lost Metal was very light on additional information regarding the Southern Scadrians. I'd imagine that's to increase the amount of new lore that Era 3 will have, but it's a bit unfortunate.