Jasnah being brilliant in WoK [spoilers] [discuss]

[Arod]

Hello all,

 

I had a thought while reviewing how Jasnah does soulcasting in WoK, and couldn't find any references to this specifically, so thought I'd share it. 

When Jasnah pretends to use her soulcaster to hide her use of Transformation, the level of dedication to the subterfuge is impressive.  First, she ensures that the gemstones crack, though there isn't any reference that I'm aware of that indicates that drawing stormlight from a gemstone can crack it.  That likely means simultaneous Transformation...?  Also, the visual effect might be something she's doing, as well.

Second, she asks for the correct gemstone to use on blood, though Transormation does not seem to be limited by the gemstone/essence affinity.

I don't think anyone could have figured out her trickery if she hadn't slipped and soulcast the bread and jam.

[NameIess]

16 minutes ago, Arod said:

Hello all,

 

I had a thought while reviewing how Jasnah does soulcasting in WoK, and couldn't find any references to this specifically, so thought I'd share it. 

When Jasnah pretends to use her soulcaster to hide her use of Transformation, the level of dedication to the subterfuge is impressive.  First, she ensures that the gemstones crack, though there isn't any reference that I'm aware of that indicates that drawing stormlight from a gemstone can crack it.  That likely means simultaneous Transformation...?  Also, the visual effect might be something she's doing, as well.

Second, she asks for the correct gemstone to use on blood, though Transormation does not seem to be limited by the gemstone/essence affinity.

I don't think anyone could have figured out her trickery if she hadn't slipped and soulcast the bread and jam.

Yeah, she put a lot of effort into faking it properly. I'm pretty sure the cracked gemstones just come from sucking the stormlight out too quickly.

[Frustration he/him]

28 minutes ago, Arod said:

I don't think anyone could have figured out her trickery if she hadn't slipped and soulcast the bread and jam.

Taravangian did, but he's Taravangian

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, she put a lot of effort into faking it properly. I'm pretty sure the cracked gemstones just come from sucking the stormlight out too quickly.

She did something specifically to break the gemstones

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

She did something specifically to break the gemstones

Yeah. She sucked the stormlight out really quickly.

[Frustration he/him]

57 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah. She sucked the stormlight out really quickly.

I doubt that's the case, none of the other Radiants expirence this, nor does tuning forks, which instantly remove all stormlight break gems.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, she put a lot of effort into faking it properly. I'm pretty sure the cracked gemstones just come from sucking the stormlight out too quickly.

It's more likely it had something to do with the fact she was using ranged Soulcasting

[Meg]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I doubt that's the case, none of the other Radiants expirence this, nor does tuning forks, which instantly remove all stormlight break gems.

As far as I understand it, the tuning forks don't "instantly remove all Stormlight" from a gem. At least I don't read the following passage from Rhythm of War, Chapter 69, first two and a half paragraphs, this way:

Quote

Navani hit the tuning fork and touched it to a glowing diamond. When she pulled it away from the gemstone, a tiny line of Stormlight followed behind it -- and when she touched the fork to an empty diamond, the Stormlight flowed into it. The transfer would continue as long as the fork made the second diamond vibrate.

Sometimes I think of it like a gas, she thought, taking notes on the speed of the flow. (...)

After completing this control experiment--and timing who quickly the Stormlight flowed (...)

[emphasizes mine]

Also earlier in Rhythm of War when the Sibling sent Navani and the others to fill the first node, it didn't seem like a instantaneous transfer of Stormlight -- the need to hurry wouldn't have arisen.

edit and adding:

I've seen or heard it theorizing that when Shallan soulcast the Wind's Pleasure in Words of Radiance (almost at the end of chapter 7) the "cracks" she heard were gems breaking. I don't recall, though, where I'd heard/read this but I will add the quote from Words of Radiance.

 

Quote

 It happened in a hectic second; the Stormlight ripped from Shallan. She heard distant cracksfrom the physical world as she withdrew so much Light from nearby gemstones that they shattered.

This seems rather distinctly told?

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Meg
Adding quote from Words of Radiance.

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, Meg said:

As far as I understand it, the tuning forks don't "instantly remove all Stormlight" from a gem. At least I don't read the following passage from Rhythm of War, Chapter 69, first two and a half paragraphs, this way:

Also earlier in Rhythm of War when the Sibling sent Navani and the others to fill the first node, it didn't seem like a instantaneous transfer of Stormlight -- the need to hurry wouldn't have arisen.

 

Huh, I remember it being faster.

[StanLemon]

It's probably simple. Gems break any time they are used to power is utilized through them. Soulcasters don't have the spren in the gems themselves and the gems only provide Stormlight and essence type for the device yet they still break. She probably powered her Soulcasting utilizing just the one gem and it broke, other times she has done large scale Soulcasting it's been described as draining multiple gems but she just used one for that massive boulder

Edited October 13, 2021 by StanLemon

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, StanLemon said:

It's probably simple. Gems break any time they are used to power is utilized through them. Soulcasters don't have the spren in the gems themselves and only provide Stormlight for the device yet they still break. She probably powered her Soulcasting utilizing just the one gem and it broke, other times she has done large scale Soulcasting it's been described as draining multiple gems but she just used one for that massive boulder

But none of the other radiants had that problem.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

But none of the other radiants had that problem.

Because they didn't want their gemstones to break. Jasnah was trying to break gemstones in order to make her fake soulcaster seem more realistic.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

But none of the other radiants had that problem.

Which I'm assuming is from the distribution Stormlight they are pulling from, not just a lot from one source thus putting a lot of strain on it. As far as I can remember, every other instance of Jasnah Soulcasting a lot of mass has been described as draining several stones. I could be wrong, but the only other possibility I can think of is that she simultaneously Soulcast the gem to break while turning the stone to smoke

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because they didn't want their gemstones to break. Jasnah was trying to break gemstones in order to make her fake soulcaster seem more realistic.

So wouldn't that be a perception thing rather than a fast removal of stormlight?

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Which I'm assuming is from the distribution Stormlight they are pulling from, not just a lot from one source thus putting a lot of strain on it. As far as I can remember, every other instance of Jasnah Soulcasting a lot of mass has been described as draining several stones. I could be wrong, but the only other possibility I can think of is that she simultaneously Soulcast the gem to break while turning the stone to smoke

Kaladin drew upon really low numbers of spheres, sometimes even one, and yet when he did things like survive the Highstorm, or pull every arrow in a volley into his sheild at once, he never comments on his gems breaking, only going dun.

[mathiau he/him]

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because they didn't want their gemstones to break. Jasnah was trying to break gemstones in order to make her fake soulcaster seem more realistic.

She was using a Soulcasting method we never heard about yet have confirmation both Elscallers and Lightweavers are able to use. I think there's something deeper there than just wasting money to make it look more realistic.

[Meg]

@Frustration

The breaking of gemstones obviously had happened when Shallan had soulcast the Wind's Pleasure. I've edited my first post above with the quote.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 

Kaladin drew upon really low numbers of spheres, sometimes even one, and yet when he did things like survive the Highstorm,

Maybe this was because he didn't "work" with the Stormlight rather than unconsciously use it for healing? Also he had Syl's help.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

or pull every arrow in a volley into his sheild at once, he never comments on his gems breaking, only going dun.

You're right but isn't this the kind of Lashing that uses the least amount of Stormlight. When he did the feat with  the shield he also certainly had more than one sphere on his body, IIRC.

[NameIess]

Just now, mathiau said:

She was using a Soulcasting method we never heard about yet have confirmation both Elscallers and Lightweavers are able to use. I think there's something deeper there than just wasting money to make it look more realistic.

1. Jasnah doesn't care about money.

2. If she did, she would just absorb stormlight first then use that to soulcast. As Frustration brought up, if doing stuff with stormlight caused spheres to crack, Kaladin would've done it.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So wouldn't that be a perception thing rather than a fast removal of stormlight?

Not necessarily. Normally a radiant would just breath in the stormlight, then later use it to do stuff. Jasnah is either using the gemstone to soulcast without absorbing the stormlight, or just absorbing the stormlight really quickly. I'm pretty sure that I saw something in the books about taking stormlight out of a sphere breaking it, but I don't know where from.

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So wouldn't that be a perception thing rather than a fast removal of stormlight?

Kaladin drew upon really low numbers of spheres, sometimes even one, and yet when he did things like survive the Highstorm, or pull every arrow in a volley into his sheild at once, he never comments on his gems breaking, only going dun.

Soulcasting has regularly been shown to be far more Stormlight intensive than most other uses of Surgebinding. Even by 4th Ideal (at least) she still needs to drain multiple gems (not described as spheres) to Soulcast. Frankly, I find it unlikely that she would need to intentionally break the gem if she didn't need to as the primary witnesses were people that to the best of her knowledge shouldn't know the limits of how much can be Soulcast before a gem breaks. Remember, in Vorin nations Soulcasting was shrouded in unnecessarily religious pomp and Taravangian was someone she considered kind but dim.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Soulcasting has regularly been shown to be far more Stormlight intensive than most other uses of Surgebinding. Even by 4th Ideal (at least) she still needs to drain multiple gems (not described as spheres) to Soulcast. Frankly, I find it unlikely that she would need to intentionally break the gem if she didn't need to as the primary witnesses were people that to the best of her knowledge shouldn't know the limits of how much can be Soulcast before a gem breaks. Remember, in Vorin nations Soulcasting was shrouded in unnecessarily religious pomp and Taravangian was someone she considered kind but dim.

This is still Jasnah we're talking about here. She isn't going to do something halfway.

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, Meg said:

You're right but isn't this the kind of Lashing that uses the least amount of Stormlight. When he did the feat with  the shield he also certainly had more than one sphere on his body, IIRC.

It drained every sphere he had in an instant, this is something other than just using Stormlight, most likely a Transformation thing.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

I find it unlikely that she would need to intentionally break the gem if she didn't need to

She has access to thousands of Emerald Broams, a couple of chips is less than pocket change

[mathiau he/him]

16 minutes ago, Meg said:

The breaking of gemstones obviously had happened when Shallan had soulcast the Wind's Pleasure. I've edited my first post above with the quote.

Interesting. Not exactly the same order of magnitude as soulcasting a person though

15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

1. Jasnah doesn't care about money.

Fair

Quote

2. If she did, she would just absorb stormlight first then use that to soulcast. As Frustration brought up, if doing stuff with stormlight caused spheres to crack, Kaladin would've done it.

So a smokestone cracked the instant Jasnah used distance soulcasting -something we've never seen anywhere else- despite her never breaking any gemstone the rest of the time -including while soulcasting the stone trapping Vargo's grandaughter before dozens of witnesses. And you're trying to sell me that it was a coincidence?

Edited October 13, 2021 by mathiau

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It drained every sphere he had in an instant, this is something other than just using Stormlight, most likely a Transformation thing.

How about this: There are two ways to use stormlight for transformation. The way that normal soulcasters do it, giving the stormlight in the gemstones directly to the cognitive aspect of the object that is being soulcasted, or the way that radiants can do it, by giving stormlight from yourself. The first way is probably easier on the Radiant, (It helps you avoid what happened to Kaladin at the end of tWoK)

Just now, mathiau said:

So basically a smokestone cracked the instant Jasnah used distance soulcasting -something we've never seen anywhere else- despite her never breaking any gemstone the rest of the time -including while soulcasting the stone trapping Vargo's grandaughter before dozens of witnesses- and your trying to sell me that it was a coincidence?

Yep. She was using the "normal" way of soulcasting, which only sometimes breaks gemstones. Maybe it's easier or safer to distance soulcast with that method, but I don't see any other reason that a radiant would need to break gemstones to soulcast that way.

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

It drained every sphere he had in an instant, this is something other than just using Stormlight, most likely a Transformation thing.

Which as we've seen with Soulcasters puts strain on the gems.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

She has access to thousands of Emerald Broams, a couple of chips is less than pocket change

Soulcasters use gems much larger than broams. Pretty much every time they reference gems they are talking about gemstones larger than spheres. Otherwise they mention them as spheres, chips, broams, etc

Quote

“But it is rock,” Jasnah said, “and there is no telling if a weak vein lurks just beyond the surface.” She inspected the monolith that had fallen from the ceiling. “This will be difficult. I will probably lose a very valuable focal stone.”

Quote

The gemstones set into Jasnah's Soulcaster were enormous, some of the largest that Shallan had ever seen, worthing spheres each.

These are quotes from the book, these aren't a couple of chips she's using.

Quote

Jasnah closed her eyes, pressing her hand against the fallen boulder. She raised her head, inhaling slowly. The stones on the back of her hand began to glow more fiercely, the smokestone in particular growing so bright it was difficult to look at.

Clearly there is stress put on the gems

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Which as we've seen with Soulcasters puts strain on the gems.

Soulcasters use gems much larger than broams. Pretty much every time they reference gems they are talking about gemstones larger than spheres. Otherwise they mention them as spheres, chips, broams, etc

These are quotes from the book, these aren't a couple of chips she's using.

Clearly there is stress put on the gems

Even so, she's still one of the richest characters we know.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Which as we've seen with Soulcasters puts strain on the gems.

Soulcasters use gems much larger than broams. Pretty much every time they reference gems they are talking about gemstones larger than spheres. Otherwise they mention them as spheres, chips, broams, etc

These are quotes from the book, these aren't a couple of chips she's using.

Clearly there is stress put on the gems

The cost to Jasnah of being discovered as a radiant is far more than any monetary cost.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Nameless said:

The cost to Jasnah of being discovered as a radiant is far more than any monetary cost.

 

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Even so, she's still one of the richest characters we know.

All true, but it would be a pointless deception. The only character who from Jasnah's pov could have questioned why a gem didn't break would be Taravangian, who at the time she didn't consider particularly bright. A much simpler deception that still would have made sense is to Soulcast the stone and say that it was fortunate the stress didn't break her gemstone