Kelsier will be a Hero of Ages in Era 3 or 4 - He fits the prophecies almost too well

[kalamitous_emoashions]

Hi All, 

I had a quick look but couldn't see a post on this topic so wanted to make one. Since my re-read of the Mistborn books, including Secret History, I started getting a sneaky suspicion that the Hero of Ages prophecy doesn't necessarily solely have to apply to Sazed - I then recently came across a post where someone had laid out all the Hero of Ages prophecy quotes and I think this is worth a discussion. 

We all know that Brandon loves pulling a fast one on us, hiding hints very early for much later pay-off. My theory essentially suggests that multiple people can fulfil the Hero of Ages prophecy - and that the next person to do so will be Kelsier in Era 3 or 4. Now I don't know whether this will mean he will take up the shards, as that isn't necessarily a pre-requisite of being the Hero of Ages as per the quotes, but that he is in someway destined to save the world. 

I have laid out the quotes below, and left some comments underneath some of them. As you can see, since the release of Secret History, there are a lot of these prophecies that match Kelsier very nicely. 

The Hero of Ages shall be not a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself. 

                Force - Kelsier took up the power of preservation, he is also now a cognitive shadow as so 'not a man'. No nation may claim him - he is claimed by both the southern scadrials and the Basin as survivor and ruler. No king may slay him - Rashek tried, but ultimately failed to kill him.   

He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. 

                The Discord one is a big hint for me. As we have confirmed through a WoB that if Kelsier was to have taken up the shards he would have been Discord and not Harmony. Given the WoB this points nicely to Kelsier fitting the prophecy. 

That which has been sundered must again begin to find its whole 

                 His body has been sundered, and his current search is leading him to find 'his whole' - perhaps his original bones. 

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it. 

The Hero will bear the future of the world on his arms. 

                  Since the bands of mourning we know Kelsier has the ability to create fullborn bands, worn on his arms. I know it was a spear head in the book, but that could have been re-forged from what was original worn bracers. We can also define future of the world perhaps in a technological sense - Kelsier's involvement with the southern scadrials is advancing the future of the world, and it was from the technological and realmatic theory brought to them by him. 

The Hero of Ages was not simply to be a warrior. He was a person who united others, who brought them together. A leader. 

                  This can obviously apply to Kelsier, and probably far more credibly that it does with Sazed. 

The Hero of Ages was removed from the Terris people. He was not royalty himself, but came to it eventually. 

                 Kelsier is removed from the Terris people in a more direct way that Sazed, and he came to royalty (in a sense) by being the leader/mythological figure of the southern scadrians. 

He commanded the forces of the world. Kings rode to his aid. 

                  Kelsier held preservations powers - and we can say that Elend did ride to his aid. Also - this part of the prophecy might not be fulfilled yet. As a leader in the Ghostbloods he has a second way of commanding the forces of the world. 

He left ruin in his wake, but it was forgotten. He created kingdoms, and then destroyed them as he made the world anew. 

                 So with this one - when he held preservation there is an argument to be made that he 'left ruin in his wake', this was also forgotten as no-one knew about it given he was battling ruin in the cognitive realm. Also, he left ruin in his wake, as not only would ruin follow him with his presence everywhere he went, but also he ultimately survived while Ati perished, and because of what Kelsier did, Ruin the shard was left in his wake for Sazed to pick up. He also created Elend's kingdom through his actions in The Final Empire, but this Kingdom was destroyed when Sazed made the world anew - but if we look at the wording 'he made the world anew', there is an argument that without his actions none of this would have happened - he was directly responsible by giving up power of preservation. There is also the potential that parts of the prophecy that apply to Kelsier haven't come to pass yet! 

...One who is separated from the Terris people, a king of men, a rebel caught between two worlds. 

                This one is a very nice one - 'A rebel caught between two worlds' - this applies so perfectly to Kelsier being caught between the physical and cognitive realms, brought up in general comfort with Marsh in nobility society, but also half skaa and spending time as an adult in their underworld. 

He who is not of his people, yet fulfills all of their wishes. 

                This one can apply nicely to the Southern Scadrians - not of them, but fulfills their wishes of survival. We also don't know enough about them yet to get a good read on what their other wishes might be, but perhaps we might see that Kelsier's actions fulfilled some other aspects of this as well. 

Let me know what you all think of this - I can't help but think that many of these prophecies can be linked with Kelsier too nicely given what we know since Secret History and Mistborn Era 2. 

As always, rip it to pieces. 

[Shinwarrior]

There were a couple of snippets I found on the coppermind which you didn't include that might also point to Kelsier

 

the Hero of Ages will be an outsider - This may just be a twisted line that ruin changed from one of the earlier lines. (The Hero of Ages was removed from the Terris people)

 

Bloodless bond to the world’s kings - There are some cosmere wide implications where this could interestingly point towards Kelsier

 

Burden by which the Hero shall be dubbed - This makes me think of some unique problems that kelsier is facing at the moment. 

 

That being said... I don't think it will be Kelsier. I think it is Sazed. A couple of examples are as follows

He left ruin in his wake, but it was forgotten. He created kingdoms, and then destroyed them as he made the world anew. - Ruin here is not capitalized. I don't think it means the shard ruin, rather the destruction that happened when he remade the world and when he fought to defend luthadel. 

The Hero will bear the future of the world on his arms. - This feels blatantly like Sazed. He recreated the world with the knowledge he carried. The whole reason Elendel is how it is, is because of the knowledge he bore on his arms. (Now, may this also have been changed by Ruin? Maybe. If so I say the word 'future' is what was changed) 

 

That which has been sundered must again begin to find its whole - You claimed this could be Kelsiers body. Fair point. Looking towards the new Mistborn book that will come out I think its talking more about Atium. Pointing to how Sazed has suppressed it from being made. 

 

 

Those are a couple examples and I don't think the prophecy has been fulfilled yet. Sazed has not yet become discord and I'm excited to see how it happens. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Shinwarrior
grammer

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 9/1/2021 at 6:14 PM, Shinwarrior said:

There were a couple of snippets I found on the coppermind which you didn't include that might also point to Kelsier

 

the Hero of Ages will be an outsider - This may just be a twisted line that ruin changed from one of the earlier lines. (The Hero of Ages was removed from the Terris people)

 

Bloodless bond to the world’s kings - There are some cosmere wide implications where this could interestingly point towards Kelsier

 

Burden by which the Hero shall be dubbed - This makes me think of some unique problems that kelsier is facing at the moment. 

 

That being said... I don't think it will be Kelsier. I think it is Sazed. A couple of examples are as follows

He left ruin in his wake, but it was forgotten. He created kingdoms, and then destroyed them as he made the world anew. - Ruin here is not capitalized. I don't think it means the shard ruin, rather the destruction that happened when he remade the world and when he fought to defend luthadel. 

The Hero will bear the future of the world on his arms. - This feels blatantly like Sazed. He recreated the world with the knowledge he created. The whole reason Elendel is how it is, is because of the knowledge he bore on his arms. (Now, may this also have been changed by Ruin? Maybe. If so I say the word 'future' is what was changed) 

 

That which has been sundered must again begin to find its whole - You claimed this could be Kelsiers body. Fair point. Looking towards the new Mistborn book that will come out I think it talking more about Atium. Pointing to how Sazed has suppressed it from being made. 

 

 

Those are a couple examples and I don't think the prophecy has been fulfilled yet. Sazed has not yet become discord and I'm excited to see how it happens. 

Ruin in his wake always seems to me to be able to refer to Kelsier’s radical and destructive methods of ending the FE - something which caused a lot of problems that have been completely forgotten in-world. And out of it too, in many cases!

[+Harrycrapper]

On 9/1/2021 at 3:14 PM, Shinwarrior said:

The Hero will bear the future of the world on his arms. - This feels blatantly like Sazed. He recreated the world with the knowledge he carried. The whole reason Elendel is how it is, is because of the knowledge he bore on his arms. (Now, may this also have been changed by Ruin? Maybe. If so I say the word 'future' is what was changed) 

Though I'm similarly not sure Kelsier would fit various parts of the prophecy, the whole bearing the future of the world on his arms could be in some way referencing his scars. 

[Raphaborn]

We had at least three twists in this Prophecy. I really don't think we need one more. At some point it stops being productive, and it just becomes boring. Also, Sazed is perfect in this role. 

[Andy92]

22 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

We had at least three twists in this Prophecy. I really don't think we need one more. At some point it stops being productive, and it just becomes boring. Also, Sazed is perfect in this role. 

I tend to agree with this. I’ve heard Brandon talk about a writing concept with sequels in that you want to make sure you don’t undermine the events of earlier books and make them kind of pointless. Having a different Hero of Ages years after the original trilogy tends to undermine the entire purpose of what Sazed went through. 

[The Technovore]

Also note the scene in Bands of Mourning where Marasi and Wayne visit the graveyard. Marasi reflects on Survivorist theology that Kelsier will one day "return in his glory" (I see you ripping off both our religions, Brandon. Don't think I don't ), specifically when the world is in great danger or need. The Southerners have the same belief. This doesn't fit HoA lore specifically, but does thematically. Could it be Kell (or rather, his followers) just co-opting an already existing theological trope? Maybe. Probably. It doesn't rule out the prophecy actually applying. I think it could be a very interesting plot point in Era 4, but I don't think it will occur in Era 3. Saze is a Hero of Ages, and 300 years doesn't quite cut it imo. I want to see a bit more of him. 

All in all, I like this theory, have some rep.

Edit: Also, welcome to the Shard, my friend! If the chasmcrawlers don't get ya, the cookies will! By the way, most excellent tattoo (you can't see it but I'm giving a thumbs-up)

Edited September 17, 2021 by The Technovore

[Comatose]

It is fun looking at the parallels though.  The origins of the Terris Prophecies are still somewhat mysterious.  Brandon states that they were originally provided by Preservation to "give hope" based on Preservation's future sight.  He talks around a question about the prophecies origins, but indicates that he "wouldn't say" there were a lot of Hero of Ages who ascended beyond those in the books.  He has also stated some people might take the prophecies and run with them (which sounds like Kelsier) but that they are specific to Scadrial.  Interestingly, he's also RAFO'd whether Dalinar fits the prophecy.  

I found this WoB interesting when I started searching - it does seem to imply there could be multiple heroes:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6070

Spoiler

Kaimipono

What was Vin supposed to do at the end of Well of Ascension? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it?

Brandon Sanderson

What was she supposed to do? Well, this is difficult to answer, since the prophecies have been changed and shifted so much. Originally, the prophesies intended for a person to go take the power every thousand years and become a protector of mankind for a period of time. Someone to keep an eye on Ruin in Preservation's absence and watch over the world as he would have done. Imagine an avatar who arrives every thousand years and lives for their lifetime blessing the people with the power of Preservation, renewing Ruin's prison, and generally being a force for protection. (Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.) Obviously, it changed a LOT during the years that Ruin was playing with things.

What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

So there are a couple of possibliities here.  I definitely think there is room for Kelsier to be another "Hero of Ages" of a different sort than Sazed.  It's also possible that Kelsier could appropriate the prophecies and use them to establish himself as a false hero, either on Scadrial or elsewhere (we know he's good at manipulating religion).  It is interesting that Kelsier's arms, for example, are distinctive for his scars.  I'm wondering if there's some way he could use them to fit the line about bearing the future "on his arms".  

EDIT:  The line I find interesting in this context is "His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it" (note the capital letter).  It's always struck me that this is what shows up in the prophecies, but Sazed chooses the name Harmony instead.  I absolutely agree this line fits Kelsier to a T.

In the books, Sazed sees himself as "the Final Hero" (the original title of HoA), which he seems to be since he went beyond just taking the power at the Well, but I definitely think there's still room to play there.

EDIT 2:  I'm still thinking about this.  I think, based on what we've seen in the books (forgive me if this has been confirmed) that shardic future sight grants awareness of many possible futures.  I wonder if there was a version of the future that Preservation saw where Kelsier WAS the hero (and possible others where there were other heroes).  That would also explain why it was important to use the gender neutral Terris pronoun - since the prophecies might have been predicting multiple different futures at once.  

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:22 PM, Andy92 said:

I tend to agree with this. I’ve heard Brandon talk about a writing concept with sequels in that you want to make sure you don’t undermine the events of earlier books and make them kind of pointless. Having a different Hero of Ages years after the original trilogy tends to undermine the entire purpose of what Sazed went through. 

Arguably, Kelsier returning undermines his death in TFE already…

I don’t think this is that much of an issue, honestly. We know the prophesies don’t fit Sazed perfectly as it is - there are multiple lines (from the Hero having grey hair, to being a king, to leading armies) that Sazed doesn’t quite match. We also know there are parts that do need to be addressed in the future, most notably Discord.

So an incomplete prophecy turning out to have more twists and turns than we’ve seen isn’t really undermining anything. It’s almost to be expected. If the prophecy was complete and clearly pointed to the person who fulfilled it, yes. But the HoA prophecy is clearly incomplete, we don’t have the original text, and it doesn’t point that neatly to Sazed at all.

[Letryx13]

On 9/3/2021 at 4:46 PM, Raphaborn said:

We had at least three twists in this Prophecy. I really don't think we need one more. At some point it stops being productive, and it just becomes boring. Also, Sazed is perfect in this role. 

Agreed. And Kelsier dances a little too close to the dark side for me to see him as a Hero of Ages.  

[Andy92]

On 9/23/2021 at 4:10 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So an incomplete prophecy turning out to have more twists and turns than we’ve seen isn’t really undermining anything.

Like someone else mentioned, it already had quite a few twists in the original trilogy. The big reveal at the end was that it all pointed to Sazed. To find out years later that it really wasn’t pointing to Sazed feels like a bit of a waste. 

I’m fine with Kelsier being around and potentially even holding a Shard at some point, but calling him the Hero of Ages is a stretch to me that takes away from the original trilogy. 

It’s why the way Star Wars handled its newest trilogy went over so poorly with fans. The way they wrote the story made all the events from the original films feel pointless. 

[+Oltux72]

15 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Agreed. And Kelsier dances a little too close to the dark side for me to see him as a Hero of Ages.  

The Hero of Ages came from Terris religion. Their god was Preservation. Preservation thought that The Lord Ruler was admirable for the stability he had created.

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 hours ago, Andy92 said:

Like someone else mentioned, it already had quite a few twists in the original trilogy. The big reveal at the end was that it all pointed to Sazed. To find out years later that it really wasn’t pointing to Sazed feels like a bit of a waste. 

I’m fine with Kelsier being around and potentially even holding a Shard at some point, but calling him the Hero of Ages is a stretch to me that takes away from the original trilogy. 

It’s why the way Star Wars handled its newest trilogy went over so poorly with fans. The way they wrote the story made all the events from the original films feel pointless. 

The actual prophecy had only a few twists; the gender neutral pronoun referred to a eunuch and ‘on his arms’ was intended in the literal sense. The other ‘twist’ was not a twist, but an alteration of the text, which isn’t quite the same thing. 

Thing is, the prophecy is clearly incomplete. In fact, we know that it’s been heavily altered from its original form entirely! So having an additional twist isn’t that surprising; incomplete prophesies often do. ‘Discord’ is definitely going to be a future twist; it still hasn’t happened and will be dealt with in Era 3.