Wait... Are they called ardents because they burn prayers?

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

Do you think that's true? Is that obvious?

"In the English language, the word "ardent" is an adjective meaning eager, zealous or passionate."
That's what the coppermind has to say on the topic.

But ardent is also related to the word "arson", and it means glowing.
In german they translate it to "Feuerer".
"Feuer" meaning "fire" .

I'm curious if the alethi word for the ardents is also related to the alethi word for fire.
 

[Aspiring Writer]

58 minutes ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Do you think that's true? Is that obvious?

"In the English language, the word "ardent" is an adjective meaning eager, zealous or passionate."
That's what the coppermind has to say on the topic.

But ardent is also related to the word "arson", and it means glowing.
In german they translate it to "Feuerer".
"Feuer" meaning "fire" .

I'm curious if the alethi word for the ardents is also related to the alethi word for fire.
 

It could be a meta reason they are called that.

[Marukka]

1 hour ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

But ardent is also related to the word "arson", and it means glowing.
In german they translate it to "Feuerer".
"Feuer" meaning "fire" .

Sorry to burst this little bubble, but no one would say "Feuerer" in german, because it is not a proper word. If you want so say someone starts fires, it would be "Brandstifter". "Feuerer" sounds a lot like "Anfeuerer" and that is a person who cheers someone/something on. 

Of course there is a connection between arson and ardent since both words derived from the latin word ardeo meaning basicly "to burn". 

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

9 minutes ago, Marukka said:

Sorry to burst this little bubble, but no one would say "Feuerer" in german, because it is not a proper word. If you want so say someone starts fires, it would be "Brandstifter". "Feuerer" sounds a lot like "Anfeuerer" and that is a person who cheers someone/something on. 

Of course there is a connection between arson and ardent since both words derived from the latin word ardeo meaning basicly "to burn". 

Eh... Yes, yes sombody would say that. The german Translations use exactly that word for the ardents. I was introduced to stormlight in german. It's my motherlanguage. I think they made it up to be the best translation. It's also a surname.

"anfeuern" can also be used in "Den Kamin anfeuern", that's the origin of the saying and litterally means "to start a fire in the chimney."

[Marukka]

3 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Eh... Yes, yes sombody would say that. The german Translations use exactly that word for the ardents. I was introduced to stormlight in german. It's my motherlanguage. I think they made it up to be the best translation. It's also a surname.

"anfeuern" can also be used in "Den Kamin anfeuern", that's the origin of the saying and litterally means "to start a fire in the chimney."

Then I guess that they used the word "Feuerer" as a unique term for Ardent which in itself is also a unique term. And I am also native in german. Can you really name one occasion anyone would say "Feuerer" except when talking about the Stormlight Archives? 

Oder um mal kurz Klatext zu reden: Als Übersetzung von einer Bezeichnung die in der Realität nicht existiert (ausser eben als Name) ist Feuerer sicherlich ok bis gut. Wobei so etwas eigene Probleme mitbringen kann, siehe Sirius Schwarz in der Erstauflage von Harry Potter.  

Edit: @Shaukan-son-Hasweth: I owe you an apology. I misunderstood your first post, I thought you meant that the german translation for the word ardent to be the same as the translation for the title. In retrospect it seems obvious what you meant but I encountered enough ppl online who thought they were perfect in german (and really were not) that I guessed wrong. Sorry.

Anyway, I do think the translator (while surely doing the best they could in an extremely limited time) did not find a real adequate translation for the title. As you already said, the meaning is there, but not quite and as the english word ardent stands more for "glowing" than "putting someting on fire". But again, I do not know what word I would have used. I probably wouldn't have translated the title at all.

To the question you posed, I would always have guessed that Ardent comes more from "an inner fire" than the burning of prayers. Other people burn prayers too and ritualistic burnings are a part of so many religions that I would have not thought the name to be derived of that. But that is all just imo. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Marukka
Brain started working again, sorry for the delay

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

3 hours ago, Marukka said:

Anyway, I do think the translator (while surely doing the best they could in an extremely limited time) did not find a real adequate translation for the title. As you already said, the meaning is there, but not quite and as the english word ardent stands more for "glowing" than "putting someting on fire". But again, I do not know what word I would have used. I probably wouldn't have translated the title at all.

Ah but that's the point. There would be a better translation if you just want to express the religious devotion of the monks: "Eiferer".  And I always wondered why they aren't called that in german, since "Eiferer" is already used to describe a very devoted almost fanaticly religious person. The surname "Feuerer" comes from the person that was assigned the tast of starting the fire. And since we have lightswitches today it's no longer used. Just like "Köhler" or "Wagner" the proffession it refers to is largely outdated.

So the choice of the translation to use a word that also alludes to fire seems intentional to me. Yesterday it struck me that Vorin-prayers litteraly include fire. Maybe the tradition of burning prayers started because somebody wanted to express the "inner religious fire" they are named after.

Falls es absicht war, gefällt mir die Übersetzung eigentlich ganz gut. Ich bin da oft hin und hergerissen. Wenn es darum geht das Cosmere zu verstehen ist die englische Originalversion immer besser. Sonst werden worte wie Cultivation-Bebauerin  oft unterschiedlich übersetzt und versteckte Zusammenhänge gehen verloren.
Aber gerade bei einem Wort wie feuerer trägt es eher dazu bei dass sich alles zusammengehörig anfühlt. Klingen die worte zu anders zur gelesenen Sprache vermittelt dass den Eindruck dass es nicht wirklich hingehört. Feuerei klingt für mich wie eine Einheimische, alltägliche instituion. Ardentia klingt wenn der rest deutsch ist einfach zu abgehoben.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

6 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Do you think that's true? Is that obvious?

"In the English language, the word "ardent" is an adjective meaning eager, zealous or passionate."
That's what the coppermind has to say on the topic.

But ardent is also related to the word "arson", and it means glowing.
In german they translate it to "Feuerer".
"Feuer" meaning "fire" .

I'm curious if the alethi word for the ardents is also related to the alethi word for fire.
 

In Polish is also obvious, but not immedietly.

"Ardent" is translated as "Żarliwiec", what comes from "żarliwy' what mean "passionate", "zealous". Intensive, passionate prayers are "żarliwe". But this word comes from "Żar" what mean "embers".

[Marukka]

6 minutes ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Ah but that's the point. There would be a better translation if you just want to express the religious devotion of the monks: "Eiferer".  And I always wondered why they aren't called that in german, since "Eiferer" is already used to describe a very devoted almost fanaticly religious person. The surname "Feuerer" comes from the person that was assigned the tast of starting the fire. And since we have lightswitches today it's no longer used. Just like "Köhler" or "Wagner" the proffession it refers to is largely outdated.

So the choice of the translation to use a word that also alludes to fire seems intentional to me. Yesterday it struck me that Vorin-prayers litteraly include fire. Maybe the tradition of burning prayers started because somebody wanted to express the "inner religious fire" they are named after.

Falls es absicht war, gefällt mir die Übersetzung eigentlich ganz gut. Ich bin da oft hin und hergerissen. Wenn es darum geht das Cosmere zu verstehen ist die englische Originalversion immer besser. Sonst werden worte wie Cultivation-Bebauerin  oft unterschiedlich übersetzt und versteckte Zusammenhänge gehen verloren.
Aber gerade bei einem Wort wie feuerer trägt es eher dazu bei dass sich alles zusammengehörig anfühlt. Klingen die worte zu anders zur gelesenen Sprache vermittelt dass den Eindruck dass es nicht wirklich hingehört. Feuerei klingt für mich wie eine Einheimische, alltägliche instituion. Ardentia klingt wenn der rest deutsch ist einfach zu abgehoben.

Well there is an english word for Eiferer, zelot, but it is (in my estimation) very negativly coloured, same as the german word.  I do think this to be the reason not to use zelot as a title or Eiferer as the translation for Ardent, even though it does fit the meaning. 

And I really do not think that the choice of Feuerer was with an unintended meaning. I really do not envy anybody who has to do those choices. It might very well be the best translation for Ardent as a title while still carrying the underlying sense. I do not like the sound, but I am very well aware that this is my personal preference. 

 

[Weltall]

Well, you got me curious so I cracked open my Japanese copy to see what that translation did. It went with the ordinary word for a Buddhist monk but with furigana (basically subtitles for text) rendering the sound of 'Ardent' to tell the reader that's the word that's actually being said. Uses after the first just went with Ardent. So it's not a universal thing across all translations, but still an interesting observation.

[Elegy he/him]

I'm also German and I'd like to add that the German publishers don't seem to contact Brandon for cases like these. At least that'd explain why they didn't call Shards Scherben but Splitter, which is basically the translation for Splinter, a separate Cosmere phenomenon. I have no idea how they're going to translate that. So the German translations are not really fit for theorizing, as far as I'm concerned.

[Zoey she/her]

 

On 8/29/2021 at 0:36 PM, Elegy said:

I'm also German and I'd like to add that the German publishers don't seem to contact Brandon for cases like these. At least that'd explain why they didn't call Shards Scherben but Splitter, which is basically the translation for Splinter, a separate Cosmere phenomenon. I have no idea how they're going to translate that. So the German translations are not really fit for theorizing, as far as I'm concerned.

This is leaving me curious, what do they use for the translation for Honor, Cultivation, and Odium? Or some things like the Orders and Surges?

Edited September 21, 2021 by Zoey

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

14 hours ago, Zoey said:

 

This is leaving me curious, what do they use for the translation for Honor, Cultivation, and Odium? Or some things like the Orders and Surges?

For the Orders it's pretty much just a litteral translation when Possible. Lightweaver = Lichtweber.
Elsecallers are made to be "Aufscheiner". Because it doesent translate well.

Odium is just Odium.

For the Shards they Use the translation of the shards intent and make it so it could be a Name based on that word not the complete translation itself. So Preservation is "Bewahr". Not "Bewahrung". Honor is "Ehr" not "Ehre".

I find it to be a poor choice and they should have just used the noun of the intent. and it's the reason I switched to english eventually.

[RAFOmancer she/her]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:39 AM, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Do you think that's true? Is that obvious?

"In the English language, the word "ardent" is an adjective meaning eager, zealous or passionate."
That's what the coppermind has to say on the topic.

But ardent is also related to the word "arson", and it means glowing.
In german they translate it to "Feuerer".
"Feuer" meaning "fire" .

I'm curious if the alethi word for the ardents is also related to the alethi word for fire.
 

In romanian, the word "arde" means burning,so I think it is related...somehow....

Edited March 12, 2023 by RAFOmancer

[alder24]

Well, google search for origin of the word ardent:

Origin:

Middle English: from Old French ardant from Latin ardens, ardent-, from ardere ‘to burn’.