What makes a truthwatcher?

[TheWanderer he/him]

So as per usual with me I have been contemplating another order of knights radiant and what qualities their spren look for. This time truthwatchers caught my eye.

Now we know the basics from the official description. Truthwatchers are generally quiet introspective and eager to discuss the nature of truth. Yet, from the truthwatchers we have seen so far I cannot recall much active pursuit of said truth. Now renarin being a corrupted truthwatcher could of course play into this. Yet even the regular ones we have seen rarely do much beyond helping children (which is a very kind and wonderful thing to do).

One trait thing I think we can look to for further insight may be their herald. Not even going to attempt to spell her name. But her attributes are learned and giving. This I think gives an idea of what truthwatchers may be aligned with. They watch, they listen, and they aid however they can. Might not be as flashy as a skybreaker or windrunner but very important all the same.

I think compassion may be a trait mistspren look for along with a shared willingness to see from others' perspectives. 

As i wrote this i actually found it funny how the edgedancer character (Lift) spent more time seeking answers that we are aware of than the regular truthwatchers (who spent time remembering the forgotten orphans and helping them).

Anyway, feel free to comment and discuss below. If yoy disagree I'm happy to chat anyway as I doubt I'm any sort of expert. As always thanks for engaging with the topic.

[Elegy he/him]

I believe this is what you're looking for:

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/#truthwatcher

[TheWanderer he/him]

5 hours ago, Elegy said:

I believe this is what you're looking for:

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/#truthwatcher

I did in fact read through that. I just feel some of the stuff we see in the books themselves implies there is something...more? After all, the stump or the cobbler don't seem to be doing much of any of the things truthwatchers are known for and yet they are of that order. 
Will also say those descriptions and the attached quiz confused me all the more on what my order would be. 

[Honorless he/him]

From what we see of Mistspren, they seem sort of fascinated with the human experience. The chosen Truthwatchers that we know of make sense from that one bit of characterization that we've seen so far from their spren. The Stump and the Cobbler were a bit more Edgedancer than Truthwatcher but they did have philosophies and life stories that would've fascinated the Mistspren. The Radiant spren don't always look for people that epitomize their Radiant Orders, sometimes they just see someone in some suitable position, compatibility or someone who needs help or who they think could make good use of the power. But there's definitely a lot more to Truthwatchers, we still don't definitively know what it is that they see, why they're called Truthwatchers nor why they were placed at the centre in the Radiant Orders chart.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Honorless

[TheWanderer he/him]

53 minutes ago, Honorless said:

From what we see of Mistspren, they seem sort of fascinated with the human experience. The chosen Truthwatchers that we know of make sense from that one bit of characterization that we've seen so far from their spren. The Stump and the Cobbler were a bit more Edgedancer than Truthwatcher but they did have philosophies and life stories that would've fascinated the Mistspren. The Radiant spren don't always look for people that epitomize their Radiant Orders, sometimes they just see someone in some suitable position, compatibility or someone who needs help or who they think could make good use of the power. But there's definitely a lot more to Truthwatchers, we still don't definitively know what it is that they see, why they're called Truthwatchers nor why they were placed at the centre in the Radiant Orders chart.

Astutely put, thanks for adding to the discussion.

[Rushu42 she/her]

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This extends to some who might not normally be known as scholarly but instead as someone often consumed by their own thoughts.

^ From the official description. I think the Truthwatchers we've seen so far fit this description the most; after all, the ones who have already made it Urithiru and joined the fight are likely to be on the more adventurous side of the order. I'm hoping that as Urithiru becomes more of a hub for scholars, under Navani's reign, we'll see more Truthwatchers. Of course, the corrupted Truthwatchers also complicate things - I suspect that we won't get real answers about this order until the back 5.  

[mathiau he/him]

I don't know how much it matters but I'm a scientist IRL and the KR kizz gives me significantly more compatible with Edgedancers than Truthwatchers (68% vs 54%)

On 23/08/2021 at 4:31 PM, TheWanderer said:

I did in fact read through that. I just feel some of the stuff we see in the books themselves implies there is something...more? After all, the stump or the cobbler don't seem to be doing much of any of the things truthwatchers are known for and yet they are of that order. 
Will also say those descriptions and the attached quiz confused me all the more on what my order would be. 

Don't forget the cobbler was consider by the Lifespren council when they discussed who would bound with Windle so he was definitely compatible with both the Edgedancer order and the Truthwatcher one, it's probably the same for the Stump.

28 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

This extends to some who might not normally be known as scholarly but instead as someone often consumed by their own thoughts.

So basically what you're saying is that Rushu is actually likely to become a Truthwatcher despite acting opposite to how the in universe WoR implies they act? the in universe Rushu, for you we already knew

Quote

^ From the official description. I think the Truthwatchers we've seen so far fit this description the most; after all, the ones who have already made it Urithiru and joined the fight are likely to be on the more adventurous side of the order. I'm hoping that as Urithiru becomes more of a hub for scholars, under Navani's reign, we'll see more Truthwatchers.

I don't know, I feel like the Alethi and Azish education system would select Elsecaller compatible people over Truthwatcher compatible ones to become Scholars, especially the Alethi one.

Quote

Of course, the corrupted Truthwatchers also complicate things - I suspect that we won't get real answers about this order until the back 5.  

Especially since we know Mistsprens are closer to Cultivation than Honour and it's likely Enlightened Truesprens are mostly Honour+Odium since Voidbinding is almost certainly the Honour+Odium magic system (why else would Voidbinders have to speak oaths?)

[Rushu42 she/her]

22 minutes ago, mathiau said:

So basically what you're saying is that Rushu is actually likely to become a Truthwatcher despite acting opposite to how the in universe WoR implies they act? the in universe Rushu, for you we already knew

Quote

What does the in universe WoR say, again?

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Rushu42 said:

What does the in universe WoR say, again?

Quote

Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally inclined to explanation; and in the case of Corberon's disagreements, their silence was not a sign of exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact.

I don't know I just can't imagine Rushu, the gemstone shinning in all directions, fitting into that description

[TheWanderer he/him]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't know how much it matters but I'm a scientist IRL and the KR kizz gives me significantly more compatible with Edgedancers than Truthwatchers (68% vs 54%)

Don't forget the cobbler was consider by the Lifespren council when they discussed who would bound with Windle so he was definitely compatible with both the Edgedancer order and the Truthwatcher one, it's probably the same for the Stump.

So basically what you're saying is that Rushu is actually likely to become a Truthwatcher despite acting opposite to how the in universe WoR implies they act? the in universe Rushu, for you we already knew

I don't know, I feel like the Alethi and Azish education system would select Elsecaller compatible people over Truthwatcher compatible ones to become Scholars, especially the Alethi one.

Especially since we know Mistsprens are closer to Cultivation than Honour and it's likely Enlightened Truesprens are mostly Honour+Odium since Voidbinding is almost certainly the Honour+Odium magic system (why else would Voidbinders have to speak oaths?)

I actually did not recall that bit about the cobbler honestly. But again, I just felt some minor confusion based upon what we have seen so far and thought to make some observations.

Edited August 25, 2021 by TheWanderer

[crème de la crèmling]

On 8/22/2021 at 8:14 AM, TheWanderer said:

One trait thing I think we can look to for further insight may be their herald. Not even going to attempt to spell her name. But her attributes are learned and giving. This I think gives an idea of what truthwatchers may be aligned with. They watch, they listen, and they aid however they can. Might not be as flashy as a skybreaker or windrunner but very important all the same.

This feels like it's pretty close to what the Stump does; but when I really consider her Truthwatcherness, I would say that the Stump is someone who is always observing and is seldom seen. She's an older woman, from a poorer community, and I think she even has a line about how very few people pay attention to her; but she was observant enough to figure out she needed Stormlight and to engineer a Stormlight exchange system to get it. Edgedancers are looking for people who aren't seen, but Truthwatchers seem to me like they are unobtrusively observing and taking notes. The Stump is more proactively curious in RoW, when she tries to help Adolin figure out how to appeal to the honorspren.

Renarin, even though he's a "corrupted" Truthwatcher, kind of fits that type: he's the second son, always overlooked for his older brother who is more traditionally accomplished, and people always try to push him into a role he has complicated feelings about because they don't really see what he wants. Renarin is also pretty secretive. When he shares information in WoR, he's covert about it--probably because he knows exactly how futuresight will be received in his culture, and he's looking for the best way to share his information so that it will be acted on appropriately. That might be "the abundance of tact." 

Rlain, I would argue, has a lot of time on the page feeling absolutely unseen for who he is as a person, and he's very aware of his surroundings all the time. 

[TheWanderer he/him]

51 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

This feels like it's pretty close to what the Stump does; but when I really consider her Truthwatcherness, I would say that the Stump is someone who is always observing and is seldom seen. She's an older woman, from a poorer community, and I think she even has a line about how very few people pay attention to her; but she was observant enough to figure out she needed Stormlight and to engineer a Stormlight exchange system to get it. Edgedancers are looking for people who aren't seen, but Truthwatchers seem to me like they are unobtrusively observing and taking notes. The Stump is more proactively curious in RoW, when she tries to help Adolin figure out how to appeal to the honorspren.

Renarin, even though he's a "corrupted" Truthwatcher, kind of fits that type: he's the second son, always overlooked for his older brother who is more traditionally accomplished, and people always try to push him into a role he has complicated feelings about because they don't really see what he wants. Renarin is also pretty secretive. When he shares information in WoR, he's covert about it--probably because he knows exactly how futuresight will be received in his culture, and he's looking for the best way to share his information so that it will be acted on appropriately. That might be "the abundance of tact." 

Rlain, I would argue, has a lot of time on the page feeling absolutely unseen for who he is as a person, and he's very aware of his surroundings all the time. 

Yet another astute and interesting observation. I figured given their shared surge there would be some crossover in the mindset of edgedancers and truthwatchers. But you brought a new idea to my mind, thank you.

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, TheWanderer said:

I figured given their shared surge there would be some crossover in the mindset of edgedancers and truthwatchers.

Be careful with shared-surges reasoning, there is more crossover between Edgedancers and Windrunners than between Windrunners and Skybreakers, at least on the compatibility side of things.

[TheWanderer he/him]

8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Be careful with shared-surges reasoning, there is more crossover between Edgedancers and Windrunners than between Windrunners and Skybreakers, at least on the compatibility side of things.

I understand, it is not so much a hard rule as a general observation. I would argue Windrunners and Skybreakers have a great deal in common though. Both are concerned with making the "right" choice. They just have a fundamental disagreement on how one makes the right choice. A windrunner will always stand for what they believe confident in their moral compass. A skybreaker doubts their moral compass and thus puts an external set morality as their guide. Both at their best wish to protect the innocent from harm. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, TheWanderer said:

A skybreaker doubts their moral compass and thus puts an external set morality as their guide

I would even disagree with this, the end goal seems to be being able to judge it on your own.

(Personally, I suspect the "external code" is not inherent to the Third Ideal, but instead is a way to get at the base idea of "moving past personal caveats or biases" thing we see with the Windrunner Third and imo Lift's Third, but this is mostly speculation.)

[TheWanderer he/him]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I would even disagree with this, the end goal seems to be being able to judge it on your own.

(Personally, I suspect the "external code" is not inherent to the Third Ideal, but instead is a way to get at the base idea of "moving past personal caveats or biases" thing we see with the Windrunner Third and imo Lift's Third, but this is mostly speculation.)

That is a fair assessment I suppose. I mostly am looking at it from the perspective of someone on the journey not so much the destination (had to use the pun). Doesn't help that Nale's vision of the order is the version we get the most exposure to. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by TheWanderer

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, TheWanderer said:

Doesn't help that Nale's vision of the order is the version we get the most exposure to. 

Yeahhh the fact we only see the version led by a magically insane guy makes it hard to tell what it would normally be 

[TheWanderer he/him]

Would be curious to see what skybreakers were like in their more ideal state. Honestly I can just as easily see windrunners causing a lot of problems same as the current iteration of skybreakers. Much like a paladin convinced of their righteousness can cause havoc, I could see windrunners ending up doing the same doing what they believe to be right. 

[mathiau he/him]

9 hours ago, TheWanderer said:

I understand, it is not so much a hard rule as a general observation. I would argue Windrunners and Skybreakers have a great deal in common though. Both are concerned with making the "right" choice. They just have a fundamental disagreement on how one makes the right choice. A windrunner will always stand for what they believe confident in their moral compass.

Of course they have some overlap, it's just that someone compatible with Windrunners is more likely to be compatible with Edgedancers or Stonewards than with Skybreakers because there's more overlap between protection and helping the forgotten or standing were you're needed than with justice.

Honestly I should have said Dustbringers/Edgedancers instead of Windrunners/Skybreakers, it's more obvious for them.

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A skybreaker doubts their moral compass and thus puts an external set morality as their guide. Both at their best wish to protect the innocent from harm. 

I don't know, Skybreakers (Nale first) are supposed to be Confident.

[TheWanderer he/him]

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

Of course they have some overlap, it's just that someone compatible with Windrunners is more likely to be compatible with Edgedancers or Stonewards than with Skybreakers because there's more overlap between protection and helping the forgotten or standing were you're needed than with justice.

Honestly I should have said Dustbringers/Edgedancers instead of Windrunners/Skybreakers, it's more obvious for them.

I don't know, Skybreakers (Nale first) are supposed to be Confident.

At their ideal state yes skybreakers should be confident. But Nale is not confident in himself, he has fully surrendered his morality to outside systems. Because he himself has stated he (and by extension other skybreakers) cannot be trusted. Though even he is horrified at what he has become when his insanity subsides. Given that he saw szeth as the perfect candidate for a skybreaker I can only imagine what his average recruit must be like. Granted there is also an interesting pattern in how a lot of insanity from heralds seem to be perversions of the traits they were said to exemplify. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by TheWanderer