Deadeyes / Threnody / BAM / singers / (hopeful side note) Adolin

[Psykopathic]

Ok. I'm new but I've tried to at least be mostly thorough while digging through the forums for my ideas and/or supporting evidence. 

My new job allows for many hours of audio (by far my preferred method) and allowed me to start binging Shardcast, something I had little time for previously. 

An episode I watched recently talked about deadeyes and The Recreance. A WoB was mentioned that talked about the deadeyes being similar to something that happened previously in the cosmere. The argument on shardcast was the situation one like Seones (Maybe spelled right?) Or shades on Threnody. The majority of the crew heavily sided with similar to Seones, and most posts I have read speak very little of shades. 

 

This is my thoughts. There are WAY too many clues about BAM and the recreance. WAY too many. The entire narrative is directing you straight at it. Well, all the Mistborn epigraph was trying to point you straight at Vin. Well, now there's Harmony. Ya know? So why would Brandon put out dozens and dozens of blatant clues that BAM was the cause of deadeyes? Simple misdirection.  Here is my actual theory.

 

The problems on Threnody started because Ambition was basically killed by Odium. Now we have Shades. 

My best research has been able to provide, Honor was dying in the time leading up to The Recreance. His death probably coincided very close with The Recreance. 

Seones issues were caused by Elantris magic system being directly connected to the landscape. That is NOT the case on Roshar. The landscape changed. The Seones changed. 

On Roshar, the singers were connected to BAM, not the Radiant Spren creating Nahel Bonds. The radiant spren as far as I can tell are connected to Honor (some more than others).

So what if the parshmen lost their form because of the imprisonment of BAM. But the deadeye were because of the death of Honor. 

 

I love new information so feel free to prove me wrong. Totally want the real details. But I feel the shades on Threnody are what was referred to in the WoB. Not the Seones. I am reasonably confident this theory has merit. 

BUT

The secondary part of my theory maybe is a lot more fluid and all that. 

So, if the deadeyes are mainly affected by the death of Honor, and a VERY good chance also that it was connected to Honor breaking his own oathes. Spren are connected to Honor. Honor breaks his oathes and dies. Radiant oathes being broken now cause deadeyes. This happened near simultaneously with The Recreance. 

A huge theory I see getting repeated is Kaladin taking up the Shard of Honor. (Sometimes Dalinar and others) BUT I think Adolin has shown more Honor than anyone. He is the 1 throughout many books, he has shown kindness to slaves and servants, common soldiers. He is always championing whatever "righteous cause" comes along. Who is closer to Honor? I had a wild theory before about Adolin being Honors champion. But what if, instead of Dalinar or Kaladin, Adolin became Honor!

A bit of supporting evidence or implications or whatever. Similar to the beginning part of my theory. Sanderson loves misdirection. I see a lot of mention of Adolin as a "side character". Sazed was a side character for all the same reasons Adolin. As far as I am concerned Adolin and Sazed are on the same level of side/main character. Now we have Harmony. 

Whether or not it is Adolin, I think when the shard of Honor had coalesced in whichever way and finds another vessel, the new vessel will renew the oathes and free the deadeyes.  I believe near simultaneously, right before, right after, which have you. In a very similar timeline BAM will be released and fix any issues still with the singers. 

 

 

 

I'd love to hear any feedback pro or con. I really hope my idea isn't completely stale and repetitive as I'm late to the forum party. Lol. 

 

 

[Use the Falchion]

First off, welcome! 

Secondly - Interesting theories! 

 

I think for Adolin becoming Honor, there certainly is credit for that theory (and I understand it's appeal even if I don't really believe it myself), but it's far less likely due to meta-information we know about Adolin's characterization, and some unexplained in-book stuff about Kaladin. Brandon has talked pretty openly about how expanded Adolin's role has been in the books. We can see this clearly with Aredor's character in The Way of Kings Prime, but even in the 17th Shard interview earlier this year, Brandon talked about how the books kept getting larger in no small part due to Adolin's increased role in the story. This to me reads as an unnatural increase due to a new character rather than this being planned ahead from the beginning. As for Kaladin, well, the Stormfather refers to him as "Son/Child of Tanavast." After listening to the Cosmere Conversations podcast earlier this year, it really felt like that this was talking about Kaladin in the same theme as calling a missionary or someone a "Son/Daughter/Child of God/Christ," in that they are doing the work of their "Father."

I personally think Dalinar is the Red Herring you're searching for, not Kaladin. Dalinar is the one receiving the visions, and is the one bonded to the Stormfather. Dalinar is the one who has had the most interaction and connection with Odium. Dalinar is the one who will be Honor's Champion. 

All of this is being used to distract us from Kaladin, the one who brings people from all walks together as comrades in arms and learns while doing so. (Bridge 4, the Wall Guard, and the Voidbringer escapees.) Kaladin, who holds a connection to one of the last original* Honorspren. Kaladin, whose Order of Radiants also shares "Honor's truest Surge." Kaladin, who is called the "Son/Child of Tanavast" by the Stormfather himself for unexplained reasons. Kaladin, whose first chapter is titled "Honor Is Dead," and explicitly tells us "Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do." Not only would this feel like an epic line before an epic (and many fan's favorite) fight, but it'd seem like some of the most blatant foreshadowing Brandon's used. 

ALL OF THAT SAID, THERE IS A SOLID CHANCE THAT  BOTH ADOLIN AND KALADIN ARE SIMPLY OPTIONS, AND ADOLIN WILL BE HONOR AT THE END OF THE DAY. (Not unlike what happened with Odium.) 

 

As for the other stuff, I'm not focused enough of the overall realmatics to really critique or add anything, nor am I sure I completely believe it, but I like the theory!

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

Ok. I'm new but I've tried to at least be mostly thorough while digging through the forums for my ideas and/or supporting evidence. 

Hey, welcome to the forums!

4 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

So what if the parshmen lost their form because of the imprisonment of BAM. But the deadeye were because of the death of Honor. 

I think the main problem here is that Honor's death happened after the Recreance, hence why visions of it could be made with his memories. The Sibling also specifically ties their wounding to the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram, and says that Honor died after that went down. So I do feel the timeline conflicts with that idea, personally.

4 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

A huge theory I see getting repeated is Kaladin taking up the Shard of Honor. (Sometimes Dalinar and others) BUT I think Adolin has shown more Honor than anyone. He is the 1 throughout many books, he has shown kindness to slaves and servants, common soldiers. He is always championing whatever "righteous cause" comes along. Who is closer to Honor? I had a wild theory before about Adolin being Honors champion. But what if, instead of Dalinar or Kaladin, Adolin became Honor!

Interesting. I don't really have a ton of strong thoughts on what I think will happen with Honor, tbh. I could see Dalinar, Kaladin, or Adolin getting it, or could see Dalinar, Kaladin, Szeth, or Taravangian picking it up alongside Odium, or could see it remaining Splintered or even broken up further by the Stormfather's death, or could see Cultivation grabbing it and Odium... I honestly don't know where I expect it to go, which makes me excited.

Edit: Sorry, forgot to respond to this:

4 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

Seones issues were caused by Elantris magic system being directly connected to the landscape. That is NOT the case on Roshar. The landscape changed. The Seones changed.

Not exactly. The seons didn't go mindless from the Reod, but more specifically when their bondmates were taken by the Shaod during the time it was broken. I think it's plausible that this could be analogous to how spren aren't immediately deadeyed by whatever caused the change (likely BAM's capture, though clearly you disagree lol), but only when the bond is broken.

Edited August 21, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Psykopathic]

@LewsTherinTelescope

OK. So your point on the Recreance makes sense but I am still having trouble with the timeline. The copper mind I only see it saying BAM imprisonment is "around the recreance". Honors death is after because of the visions, yes.  But how far after? How long after the recreance did the spren become deadeyes? Was it immediate? As far as I can tell. BAM was captured. Then the sibling ended their bond with their bondsmith then the recreance. Then at some point after recreance honor dies. 

So a couple thoughts I had I'd like to add to the conversation. In response to the Sibling saying her wounding was because of BAM. I mean she's obviously a good source. But a book ago every spren and human on Roshar knew the radiants broke their oaths. So is it not possible the sibling could be wrong? Also around this time I have read things about Honor had already been dying around that time. Wounded by Odium, possibly breaking his own oaths? 

 

So tell me if this is even a possibility. I may be completely missing something again but here goes. Does it fit into timeline that

#1 BAM is imprisoned. 

#2 Sibling breaks their bond. 

#3 the receance

#4 since Honor is so connected to the radiants all the oaths broken at once could have been the nail on honors coffin. 

#5 Honor is now shattered. Bonded spren are now deadeye. Everyone relates it to BAM BECAUSE they saw what her imprisonment did to the singers. 

 

 

The only reason I am stuck on this idea is because of connection. BAM was connected to the singers. So her imprisonment greatly affected them. And minorly affected other things. She is also connected to Odium and she uses voidlight to fuel everything. The radiant spren are of Cultivation and Honor. Windrunners are MOST connected to Honor and there are a lot more wind runners than any other order. So you take a greatly wounded Honor, a vast amount of oaths broken simultaneously..... boom. Cultivation is probably affected in someway but wasn't already wounded and not nearly as connected as Honor. 

 

I could be misunderstanding timeline. I dunno. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Psykopathic said:

So tell me if this is even a possibility. I may be completely missing something again but here goes. Does it fit into timeline that

I don't think it's impossible, but I do feel it's unlikely. (You are right that Brandon likes to pull the rug out from under us sometimes, but to me personally, this doesn't feel like that's what's being done. I think the twist will be more around why her capture did what it did than whether it did so.)

3 minutes ago, Psykopathic said:

So is it not possible the sibling could be wrong?

I feel like they'd notice the timeline conflict there.

4 minutes ago, Psykopathic said:

#4 since Honor is so connected to the radiants all the oaths broken at once could have been the nail on honors coffin. 

I could see this helping the process along, but I'm not super sure. The Stormfather does claim that he saw Odium kill Honor and saw his corpse fall, and that he (meaning the SF) fled after that. So to me it doesn't sound like it was quite the killing blow, but I could see it in some way weakening Honor, maybe? Not sure.

5 minutes ago, Psykopathic said:

The radiant spren are of Cultivation and Honor.

The thing with this, I think, is that the spren are Splinters, pieces broken off. For example, seons only go into their broken state when their master is taken by the Reod-screwed Shaod, not all the time, even though their Shards are Splintered. And tbh, considering the process of "killing" a Shard is making them into Splinters, it would be odd to me if Splintering a Shard directly harmed the Splinters in such a manner.

8 minutes ago, Psykopathic said:

I could be misunderstanding timeline. I dunno. 

#1-4 does match what we know of the timeline, yeah. For #5, you're right we don't know for certain that the spren were deadeyed immediately, but it feels odd to me that they would become deadeyes then even if the Ideals were broken before Honor's death, if that's what caused the change, but that's just my gut saying it feels weird, not an evidence-backed argument.

[Psykopathic]

Ok so the 2 things I'm trying to wrap my head around. I meant to mention 1 earlier but don't think I did? I still don't understand why Odium's basically unmade general would be connected enough to radiant spren to deadeye them. It just really bugs me. 

About the Sibling, does she explicitly say she lost her light when BAM becomes imprisoned? Or does she just say BAM is the cause? I am not 100% sure how that connection is there either. I know it is mostly because of lack of info on the Unmade. It also crosses my mind that BAM is still captured but Sibling has her light back. I believe it was hearing Honors tone again helped with her light. That implies the true tones were the cause. So in that line of thinking kind of rephrases the question. Is BAM strong enough and invested enough to effect honors tone when captured? Or would it be the death of a vessel?

 

Sorry if my thoughts come out feeling rambling. Never feel I do good at explaining what I'm trying to say. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 minutes ago, Psykopathic said:

Ok so the 2 things I'm trying to wrap my head around. I meant to mention 1 earlier but don't think I did? I still don't understand why Odium's basically unmade general would be connected enough to radiant spren to deadeye them. It just really bugs me. 

It's definitely a good question. The two main theories tend to center around either a.) she was an important spren prior to her unmaking, or b.) something she did in order to be able to set up the False Desolation forged this Connection. We don't really know which, or if there's an option c.) that we've missed.

10 minutes ago, Psykopathic said:

About the Sibling, does she explicitly say she lost her light when BAM becomes imprisoned?

They do, yes (Sibling uses they/them, not she/her, btw, though a lot of people seem to make that mistake). RoW 49:

Quote

The Sibling fell silent for a time, and Navani wondered if she had pushed the spren too far. Fortunately they spoke again, softly. I have … been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too.

Navani covered her shock. “You’re speaking of the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?”

Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

“How have no spren mentioned this?”

I don’t know. But I lost the rhythm of my Light that day. The tower stopped working. My father, Honor, should have been able to help me, but he was losing his mind. And he soon died …

[Brgst13]

Quote

An episode I watched recently talked about deadeyes and The Recreance. A WoB was mentioned that talked about the deadeyes being similar to something that happened previously in the cosmere. The argument on shardcast was the situation one like Seones (Maybe spelled right?) Or shades on Threnody. The majority of the crew heavily sided with similar to Seones, and most posts I have read speak very little of shades. 

I think that the argument around seons is from the right book but wrong example.  Instead, I think we are looking at something similar to the Shaod.  A person is improperly connected to the Dor, and cannot complete the transformation to an Elantran.  Likewise, a Spren is improperly Connected to Roshar, resulting in their being unable to survive the breaking of a Radiant bond.

I think, then, that just as the Chasm forming blocked the flow of the Dor to Elantrans, the imprisonment of BAM blocked Honor's tone from the inhabitants of Roshar.  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

I think, then, that just as the Chasm forming blocked the flow of the Dor to Elantrans, the imprisonment of BAM blocked Honor's tone from the inhabitants of Roshar.  

Worth noting:

Quote

Pagerunner

Were all spren wounded by Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture like the Sibling was? Did it prevent them from hearing Honor's tone in the same way?

Brandon Sanderson

Alright, so first part is, were all spren wounded by it?

Pagerunner

Like the Sibling was.

Brandon Sanderson

Not all were wounded in the same way.

And no, not necessarily, to the second part.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Also, Sibling originally lost the ability to hear both tones, but has since regained Cultivation's, which is interesting. Unclear to me if they regained Cultivation's during the book or before it, however.

(I'd be very curious to know if they could hear Odium's tone at various points in time and if that changed at any point.)

[+mdross81 he/him]

16 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Also, Sibling originally lost the ability to hear both tones, but has since regained Cultivation's, which is interesting. Unclear to me if they regained Cultivation's during the book or before it, however.

I strongly suspect that the Sibling was able to hear Cultivation’s tone again because Venli was able to find/hear it when she was communing with the stones and practicing her stoneshaping.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I strongly suspect that the Sibling was able to hear Cultivation’s tone again because Venli was able to find/hear it when she was communing with the stones and practicing her stoneshaping.

Hmm, that's a very interesting idea I hadn't considered. I'll have to look into that.

[Brgst13]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Worth noting:

Also, Sibling originally lost the ability to hear both tones, but has since regained Cultivation's, which is interesting. Unclear to me if they regained Cultivation's during the book or before it, however.

(I'd be very curious to know if they could hear Odium's tone at various points in time and if that changed at any point.)

Can you cite where the Sibling lost both tones?  I haven't been able to confirm this.

Also that WoB has some vagueness in the second answer.  The question was if all spren lost the ability to hear Honor's tone.  His response of not necessarily could indicate that some spren never heard it in the first place (voidspren?).  

I feel like I am almost able to describe what happened to Roshar with the imprisonment of BAM, but there are a few mechanical details I am trying to iron out.  For me, the really interesting line is from Kalek: "As one who it broke...".  This suggests that the imprisonment of BAM may have been the event that caused the Heralds' insanity, not the alteration of the Oathpact.

In addition to the Heralds' insanity, it seems as if this is roughly when Honor ordered the Oathgate spren closed.  These things, taken together, suggest that the transition from Physical to Cognitive was altered in some way.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Brgst13
Added info

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

Can you cite where the Sibling lost both tones?  I haven't been able to confirm this.

Sure! RoW 69:

Quote

I haven’t forgotten anything. The defenses no longer work because I don’t have the Light for them. I lost most of my strength when I lost the ability to hear the two pure tones of Roshar. I can make only a tiny amount of Light, enough to power a few of the tower’s basic fabrials.

[Brgst13]

Thanks!  I missed that one, that is an important point.  Although it does agree with my explanation for the WoB you quoted earlier.

[Solant he/him]

My impression in drawing the parallel between deadeyes and something that happened before in the cosmere was that he was talking simply about when an external event caused a disruption in the function in a shard's splinters, meaning the geographical changes on Sel and the imprisonment of BAM. I can't say why her imprisonment would do that, but judging by the way the sibling reacted to Navani trapping spren for fabrials I can't help but feel that it might have been what caused the sibling to withdraw as well. That's just my impression, though... I don't have a fully formed theory or anything.

[Olmund]

On 8/20/2021 at 11:11 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think the main problem here is that Honor's death happened after the Recreance, hence why visions of it could be made with his memories. The Sibling also specifically ties their wounding to the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram, and says that Honor died after that went down. So I do feel the timeline conflicts with that idea, personally.

That's an interesting quote given Brandon's slight uncertainty, and to be fair he does use future sight to generate at least one of the visions (the one where he shows Odium's champion -- granted, it lacks a lot of detail unlike the recreance vision).

I think the bigger issue with this theory is that no one (stormfather, sibling, heralds, etc.) seem to associate Honor's death with the deadeyes, which would have been a very easy logical assumption to make if the timelines had lined up. I think it's far more likely that the recreance was a part of what weakened Honor to the point that Odium was able to kill Tanavast down the line -- all those intentionally broken oaths must have cost him.

I also think that Ba Ado Mishram was partially responsible for Tanavast's madness -- she may have been one of his closest spren before being unmade, and she might have covertly infiltrated his connections via her previous spiritual neural pathways in order to grant power to the singers -- which, in itself, is something that would have wounded him. Then when she was trapped within a gemstone (which was perhaps something subtly encouraged by Odium -- sacrificing a chess piece for a much bigger prize), it damaged the connections of Honor and all his spren to the point that madness began to set in full force for Tanavast (a bit like removing a tumor from the brain and damaging the prefrontal cortex in the process).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 minutes ago, Olmund said:

I think the bigger issue with this theory is that no one (stormfather, sibling, heralds, etc.) seem to associate Honor's death with the deadeyes, which would have been a very easy logical assumption to make if the timelines had lined up.

Good point. 

7 minutes ago, Olmund said:

I think it's far more likely that the recreance was a part of what weakened Honor to the point that Odium was able to kill Tanavast down the line -- all those intentionally broken oaths must have cost him.

Hm, maybe. I go back and forth. Depends on how much affecting a Splinter can actually directly affect the parent Shard, I think. 

9 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Then when she was trapped within a gemstone (which was perhaps something subtly encouraged by Odium -- sacrificing a chess piece for a much bigger prize)

Oh hm, I didn't consider that idea before. I like it, especially because I'm a proponent of the theory that Ba-Ado-Mishram was essentially trying to launch a coup with the False Desolation, making herself the god of the singer forces instead of Odium, and so I could see Odium subtly pushing it as a way to do all of wounding the spren, driving the end of the Radiants, and tying up a loose end. I'm definitely curious now.

(The way Ulim speaks of the event makes it seem that BAM was doing that to me, at least.)

Quote

We couldn’t break the last Herald, and the humans found some way to pin the whole Oathpact on him. So we got stuck on Braize. Eventually the Unmade decided to start a war without us. That turned out to be exceedingly stupid. In the past, Odium granted forms of power, but Ba-Ado-Mishram thought she could do it. Ended up handing out forms of power as easily as Fused give each other titles, Connected herself to the entire singer species. Became a little god. Too little.

It reminds me of how Sja-anat wants "to be a god unto herself", and the way Ulim speaks of it as a bad decision made by the Unmade makes me question whether they had approval for it. 

[ftl]

On 8/21/2021 at 0:25 PM, Psykopathic said:

Ok so the 2 things I'm trying to wrap my head around. I meant to mention 1 earlier but don't think I did? I still don't understand why Odium's basically unmade general would be connected enough to radiant spren to deadeye them. It just really bugs me.

I think there was one more prerequisite - Odium becoming Invested enough in Roshar to become a Rosharan god, and this making Ba-Ado-Mishram into a Godspren like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher.

Note that by the time of RoW, the Sibling doesn't just need Honor and Cultivation's tone to make Light - it also needs Odium's pure tone, which Navani learns to sing for the Sibling. There are now THREE pure tones of Roshar, not two like the Sibling first throught.

Also, in history, we know that the False Desolation was caused by Ba-Ado-Mishram "learning to give forms of power to the singers". I think this is via her becoming a godspren like the Nightwatcher and Stormfather - and thus becoming able to dispense Odium's Investiture just like the Stormfather dispenses stormlight.

So I think that's the sequence of events there. Odium becomes a true Rosharan god, now his tone is one of the three pure tones of Roshar, B-A-M becomes a godspren, and thus becomes connected to all the other spren. Then she starts using her godspren powers to give out forms of power and voidlight, gets gem-trapped, which now leaves all spren without a connection to Roshar since one of their three godspren is trapped and disconnected.

[Brgst13]

On 9/18/2021 at 3:45 PM, ftl said:

Note that by the time of RoW, the Sibling doesn't just need Honor and Cultivation's tone to make Light - it also needs Odium's pure tone, which Navani learns to sing for the Sibling. There are now THREE pure tones of Roshar, not two like the Sibling first thought.

Can you cite a source for this?  In RoW it seems pretty clear that the Sibling only needed Honor and Cultivation's tones.  In fact, Towerlight is explicitly described as such, "the light of science" as Navani described it.

[Frustration]

On 9/18/2021 at 1:45 PM, ftl said:

Note that by the time of RoW, the Sibling doesn't just need Honor and Cultivation's tone to make Light - it also needs Odium's pure tone, which Navani learns to sing for the Sibling. There are now THREE pure tones of Roshar, not two like the Sibling first throught..

 

42 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

Can you cite a source for this?  In RoW it seems pretty clear that the Sibling only needed Honor and Cultivation's tones.  In fact, Towerlight is explicitly described as such, "the light of science" as Navani described it.

Odium's tone was not neccecary, the only thing preventing the Sibling from making their Light was that they couldn't hear Honor's tone

[ftl]

Huh, yeah, you're right. I misread that, just went back and checked. Navani hums anti-Odium tone earlier, but then switches to Honor to fix the Sibling's Light. Nevermind!