Oaths of Elscallers

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

So,

I think I can make an educated guess on what the oaths of the Elscallsers might be based on the characterization of Jasnah.

When we look at the other Radiants in the story, their oaths always seem to incorporate a virtue the character expresses, the devine attributes of the Herald of their order and sometimes a flaw they have to overcome.

Kaladin is a guy who instinctively wants to help protect people, and he’s also a natural leader. But he takes too much responsibility and stretches himself to thin to be effective. So his last oath is him confronting that he cannot save everyone.

Shallan is a very creative person, who tries to inspire other people by believing in better versions of themselves. But she has constructed many lies around herself for protection and isn’t honest with others. So her oaths have her admitting truths to herself and others.

Lift treats everyone she meets with the same level of respect ( or disrespect) and doesn’t seem to discriminate against people. She even doesn’t thik that badly about the people she fights. But she is pretty selfish in the beginning and very used to only looking out for herself.
Her orders oaths teach her to remember other people and to listen to them instead of just moving on without a care.

You get the Idea.

Lets get to Jasnah.
The attributes of her herald are wise and careful. And I think her order also values truth and knowledge.
We know that over the course of the books Jasnah has progressed significantly in her oaths.
I tried to think about what her naturally good attributes are and what flaws she has actively worked on as she seeks her oaths

Jasnah is a very intelligent person and excels at the things she starts. She is able to reflect on her own actions and question established viewpoints.
But, her general competence has boosted her confidence to a point where she can be dismissive, cruel and stubborn.

I always come back to the scene in the hospital where she apologizes to Shallan saying that apologies are something more people should practice. And I think she did just that.
Admitting shes wrong doesn’t come naturally to her but she made an effort to learn and I believe this is connected to her oaths.

Something else we see her do is to question the established teachings about her culture and society. She is an open heretic. She questions and actively defies the male and female arts although she would be able to embody the feminine ideals perfectly. And in the fourth book she has openly demanded to end slavery despite being among the most privileged people in Vorin society. Something that other radiants like Dalinar or Navani seem to not understand at first. This kind of thinking, in my opinion ,is required of an Elsecaller.

she is also actively researching the end of the world against all odds, instead of ignoring the signs.

So lets get to my guesses for the oaths.

I :”Live before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination"

II :”I will seek uncomfortable truth over blissful ignorance”

III: “I accept that I can be mistaken. And I will admit when I am wrong"

IV: “ I will strive to be objective in my views; But will accept that my own viewpoint is narrow and limited”

I’m not saying this will be the exact words. Or even that it’s correct when paraphrased. But I’m quite confident that this will be the theme for the Elsecallers.

what do you think?
 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Shaukan-son-Hasweth

[Unite Them]

I like it!  Her spren seems to value objective truth and thinks in absolutes.

[Halyo_Alex]

One thing I'd like to add here is the subtext for the Order's Title Card as shown in the official Radiant Quiz. For all the other orders (except Lightweavers), the subtext is the first part of their second ideal. "I will protect" "I will remember". for Elsecallers, that first part is "I will reach my potential".

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

One thing I'd like to add here is the subtext for the Order's Title Card as shown in the official Radiant Quiz. For all the other orders (except Lightweavers), the subtext is the first part of their second ideal. "I will protect" "I will remember". for Elsecallers, that first part is "I will reach my potential".

Though also worth noting that they are heavily tied to the individual, like Lightweavers and Skybreakers. 

Quote

Elsecaller oaths are, like those of the Lightweavers or Skybreakers, themed toward the individual. In this case, the theme is progress—becoming better with each oath, seeking to explore their true potential and reach it. Because of this, the Order is open to many different types, so long as they want to improve themselves.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Though also worth noting that they are heavily tied to the individual, like Lightweavers and Skybreakers. 

Interesting. In that case, OP may be right about these oaths being Jasnah's Elsecaller Oaths.

[Elegy]

9 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

II :”I will seek uncomfortable truth over blissful ignorance”

Well, if this is an Elsecaller oath, then what would the Truthwatcher oaths sound like? After all, their motto in the Knights Radiance Quiz is literally "I will seek truth".

Good job anyway! Putting together list of guess oaths like this is always quite the venture.

[apepi]

I can see it like...them admitting that certain things that are not good at or is good for them, or admitting that there are certain things that they do like like/good at. I see it as Elsecaller oaths are similar to those step programs to become a better person(think like the 12 step AA). I believe that Dalinar could have easily became an Elsecaller if he did not end up where he did.

I think a good one for Jasnah would be like..."Two truths that are in opposition with each other can both still be correct.".

[+Harrycrapper]

Yea, like @Elegy said, the second oath is way too close to a Truthwatcher Oath for comfort. The order description from the quiz does say that the Elsecallers' Oaths are more specifically tailored to the individual, but that doesn't mean they can be anything, they will still have a theme. Only the Lightweavers Oaths were described as not requiring specific words. It's also important to note that while the Skybreakers' Third and Fourth Ideal are determined by the individual, the Second is more general and in the instance we've seen it, included the phrase on the order descriptions from the quiz. 

But seriously, if you were theorizing on the Truthwatcher Oaths, the ones presented would fit quite well. They're all about seeking truth and making sure people know about it. But the question of what is objective truth is difficult and they wanted to be very careful about how knowledge was disseminated and make sure people in power weren't abusing their people. These all fit quite well with that. 

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

9 hours ago, Elegy said:

Well, if this is an Elsecaller oath, then what would the Truthwatcher oaths sound like? After all, their motto in the Knights Radiance Quiz is literally "I will seek truth".

Good job anyway! Putting together list of guess oaths like this is always quite the venture.

Wait, do we know any oaths of the truthwatchers?

In this post I'm trying to figure it out by the arc the character seems to have. I didn't consider the quiz. It might shake my hypothesis.

I don't think their oaths are going to be that literally connected to truth. Willshapers are all about freedom but they are described as providing infrastructure. Related but not exactly the same.

If we look at Ym and Arshtram, the truthwatchers (except for corrupted Renarin) seem to be involved in charity. Gathering attention towards and helping the most disadvantaged. in both examples orphans.

For them i propose :

II "I will give what I can spare" or "I will help those who have the least"

Edited August 5, 2021 by Shaukan-son-Hasweth

[Halyo_Alex]

10 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Willshapers are all about freedom but they are described as providing infrastructure. Related but not exactly the same.

Well Venli definitely swears an Ideal related to freedom. The quiz mentions it, really the only part that seems to disagree are the divine attribute pair from Vorinism(?) and Kelek the herald.

[+Harrycrapper]

12 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Wait, do we know any oaths of the truthwatchers?

In this post I'm trying to figure it out by the arc the character seems to have. I didn't consider the quiz. It might shake my hypothesis.

I don't think their oaths are going to be that literally connected to truth. Willshapers are all about freedom but they are described as providing infrastructure. Related but not exactly the same.

If we look at Ym and Arshtram, the truthwatchers (except for corrupted Renarin) seem to be involved in charity. Gathering attention towards and helping the most disadvantaged. in both examples orphans.

For them i propose :

II "I will give what I can spare" or "I will help those who have the least"

Ah, I wasn't sure whether or not you had seen the order descriptions put out with the quiz, here's the link to all the descriptions on Brandon's website: https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/

I recommend reading through that before continuing here. 

We've only seen the Oaths sworn for half the orders so far and Lightweavers are the special ones that don't really help when theorizing other Order's Oaths. Also, our only firsthand example of Lightweavers is Shallan who is basically useless when theorizing about almost anything outside of trying to figure out her past. But, each of the other Orders' Second Ideal we've seen contains the phrase associated with each Order.

Windrunners: I will protect - Kaladin: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Skybreakers: I will seek justice - Szeth: I will seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal.

Edgedancers: I will remember - Lift: I will remember those who have been forgotten.

Bondsmith: I will unite - Dalinar: I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together.

Willshapers: I will seek freedom - Venli: I will seek freedom for those in bondage.

So, the first part of the Second Ideal seems to be more or less set in stone. It's likely synonyms could be used for some of the words, especially considering they might not all be in the same language, but the general idea of it seems to always be the same for each person with respect to their Order. I think the following Ideals start to get more personal to the Radiant, though that likely varies based on the Order as well. For example, Kaladin's Third Ideal is "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right" and Teft's is "I will protect those I hate, even if the one I hate is myself" while Lopen's is "I've got to protect people, you know? Even from myself." So, there's definitely variation, but there's also a theme. That's why (and I'm not trying to offend) I don't think any of your Ideals apply to Jasnah, they don't have anything to do with her potential, which is the theme of the Elsecaller Oaths. They're more about objectivity, which just seems more like a Truthwatcher thing based on their order description on that page linked earlier. The Elsecallers are definitely going to have variation, as each person has potential for different things. Potential can also mean a couple of different things. It could be a more general sense of potential for specific attributes, in Jasnah's case scholorship, ruling/politics. It could also be the potential to do something; much like Taravangian asked Cultivation to give him the "capacity to save humanity" one of Jasnah's Ideals could be about reaching the potential to save humanity from extinction via Voidbringer. It could also be a combination of the two where the Second and Third Ideal are more about her attributes while similar to the Skybreakers having a "crusade" Ideal, the Elsecallers have a specific goal to achieve for their Fourth Ideal.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Harrycrapper
Forgot Willshapers, though in my defense, Venli is forgettable.

[jamesbondsmith]

12 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

I don't think their oaths are going to be that literally connected to truth. Willshapers are all about freedom but they are described as providing infrastructure. Related but not exactly the same.

Infrastructure provides a lot of freedom by getting rid of things in your way (i.e. providing negative liberty). Roads and public transport allow freedom of movement, a roof over your head means some level of stability and not having to fight over which bit of dirt is less likely to be destroyed in a highstorm. 

Supposedly, both Truthwatchers and Elsecallers are considered to be 'scholarly'. There are a gazillion ways to be scholarly, even if it's just down to the Jurassic Park, science/humanities question of 'reasons why we could vs reasons why we should'. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by jamesbondsmith

[AquaRegia]

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

Also, our only firsthand example of Lightweavers is Shallan who is basically useless when theorizing about almost anything outside of trying to figure out her past.

One small mistake - I fixed it.  ;-)

[+Harrycrapper]

20 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

One small mistake - I fixed it.  ;-)

You know what, that's fair.