Truthwatcher Artifabrian he/him Posted July 31, 2021 Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 (edited) Adhesion is Honor’s Surge. Progression is Cultivation’s Surge. Odium does not have a Surge. No other shard has a Surge. Here is the circle of the surges, with the surges of Honor and Cultivation bolded: Adhesion Tension Gravitation Cohesion Division Transportation Abrasion Transformation Progression Illumination However, if you force Adhesion and Progression to be on opposite sides of the circle, you end up with this: Adhesion Tension Gravitation Cohesion Transportation Division Transformation Abrasion Illumination Progression If you then imagine Cultivation on the bottom and honor at the top, you can see a clear gradient from surges more of honor to surges more of Cultivation. Transportation and Division are the only ones at the same point in that gradient, because they’re in the middle. This also gives a clear gradient (This time with no ties) of Radiant orders. Bondsmiths, Windrunners, Stonewards, Skybreakers, Willshapers, Elsecallers, etc. All the way down to Truthwatchers. Note that the order second closest to Honor bonds Honorspren, and the order second closest to Cultivation bonds Cultivationspren. Quote Questioner Is there a combination of two Surges that you wouldn't normally see, that'd be fun to write about. Brandon Sanderson Oh yeah. It was actually a tough decision to let myself-- make myself put them in the groupings that I did. Because my brain naturally wants to say, "What about this, what about this?" What would be really interesting, you could do really cool things as a Stoneward with manipulating matter and changing it and stuff, and then burning things into it with-- whichever power that is-- [Division]... I should know. Well, I should know. But I always go look at the list. The Dustbringer power. But I think you could do really interesting sculpture type stuff with that. With the burning, you could add color to the things, to an extent. Like grayscale? But it's not really something that's built into the magic. Of all surges, why are Cohesion and Division the first pair that Brandon mentions? If the circle of surges was not originally a circle in Brandon’s mind, but a line from Adhesion to Progression, Division and Cohesion end up right next to each other. Windrunners get a burst of power whenever they swear an oath. Brandon has said that it’s because of their proximity to Bondsmiths. I always assumed that meant that Stonewards also got the power, but now they might not necessarily; Windrunners are closer to Honor than Stonewards. Edited July 31, 2021 by Truthwatcher Artifabrian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex he/him Posted July 31, 2021 Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 (edited) That second list of surges almost looks like you could make a helix out of it. Wait, hang on. Lemme try that. Aaaand it looks like a waveform. Huh. Edited July 31, 2021 by Halyo_Alex Drew the thing 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted July 31, 2021 Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said: That second list of surges almost looks like you could make a helix out of it. Wait, hang on. Lemme try that. Aaaand it looks like a waveform. Huh. Maybe stretch it out a bit for a uniform wavelength Edited July 31, 2021 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex he/him Posted July 31, 2021 Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: Maybe stretch it out a bit for a uniform wavelength Actually, with the way it intensifies and peaks in the middle, it almost looks like a quantum wavefunction, but sideways. Like a... photon... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apepi Posted July 31, 2021 Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 (edited) I am not sure if "Odium does not have a Surge. No other shard has a Surge. " is correct, have we seen anything to support this? Edited July 31, 2021 by apepi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted August 1, 2021 Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 10 hours ago, apepi said: I am not sure if "Odium does not have a Surge. No other shard has a Surge. " is correct, have we seen anything to support this? Well for starters there are ten surges not 16. And Odium would have a Void 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor #5 Posted August 1, 2021 Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Frustration said: Well for starters there are ten surges not 16. You could argue that some Surges fit multiple Shards, I'd say that Division fits Ruin and Odium both, for instance. Though I don't think that Surges have to map to individual Shards. Assuming Raboniel is at least mostly correct when she explains the Surges to Venli, nine of the Surges are the interplay of Honor and Cultivation (which makes sense, they are interpretations of natural laws, Cultivation and Honor) and one is of Honor alone, this one also being called "Honor's Truest Surge" by the Sibling. This implies to me that a Truest Surge should fall outside the nine "natural" Surges (yes, I'm well aware of the whole thing with Lift, Lifelight and Progression and how it looks a loooot like Kaladin, Stormlight and Adhesion) and as such any Shard could have a theoretical "Truest Surge" that exists outside the power set and context of Surgebinding and the Surges. Of course, Raboniel could also be lying or have been decieved by Odium, allowing us to find two "Truest Surges," Adhesion and Progression, both being of Honor and Cultivation, just on the extreme ends of the Honor-Cultivation spectrum and each capable of shenanigans when paired with the matching Investiture. This last effect is presumably based on the same principle as Ruin and Preservation being differently good at fueling different parts of the Metallic Arts. Quote Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Power matching the nature of the ability seems to have an advantage (this line of reasoning also opens up questions like "does Vasher need more than a Breath's worth of Stormlight each time?") 6 hours ago, Frustration said: And Odium would have a Void I still refuse to believe that "Voids" are a thing, but we don't need to repeat that discussion here. Is there also such a thing as Preservation's Truest Metal then? On 2021-07-31 at 4:34 AM, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said: However, if you force Adhesion and Progression to be on opposite sides of the circle, you end up with this: I like this as it makes several things known to be part of the functioning of Urithiru Sibling-adjacent, Transportation for the Oathgates, Transformation in the shield fabrial, Cohesion in the walls/doors. I'm less sure about how/if Division fits in, but since I'm of the oppinion that the Suppressor fabrial messes with Connection, I could see it maybe being Spiritual Division or somesuch. On 2021-07-31 at 4:34 AM, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said: Note that the order second closest to Honor bonds Honorspren, and the order second closest to Cultivation bonds Cultivationspren. This makes sense, I really don't like it. On 2021-07-31 at 4:34 AM, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said: Windrunners get a burst of power whenever they swear an oath. Brandon has said that it’s because of their proximity to Bondsmiths. I always assumed that meant that Stonewards also got the power Same On 2021-07-31 at 4:34 AM, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said: Windrunners are closer to Honor than Stonewards. Makes sense, Adhesion being "the Surge of Binding and Oaths." Bondsmiths and Windrunners are closest to Honor, power wise, and presumably pulling Investiture out of the Spiritual is a function of Adhesion, one that Bondsmiths get standard and Windrunners as a level up bonus. ¤_¤ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau he/him Posted August 1, 2021 Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 (edited) Why are we assuming there should be central symmetry between Honour and Cultivation's Surge? It's of Odium. There should be either horizontal symmetry (Honour) or vertical symmetry (Cultivation) and if you look at the chart There is horizontal symmetry between Adhesion and Progression On 31/07/2021 at 6:22 PM, Halyo_Alex said: Actually, with the way it intensifies and peaks in the middle, it almost looks like a quantum wavefunction, but sideways. Like a... photon... I'm counting seven photons Edited August 2, 2021 by mathiau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex he/him Posted August 1, 2021 Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 3 hours ago, mathiau said: I'm counting seven photons Each peak? That's not exactly how quantum particles work, per se. A photon is an individual/indivisible packet of energy, an excitation in the Electromagnetic Field, which mediates and transmits the electromagnetic force between particles that are coupled (Connected?) to the Electromagnetic field. That excitation has a wavelength, or frequency, which we perceive as color due to chemicals our eyes release when stimulated by different wavelengths of photons interacting with our cones in our retinas. Color is pure perception, but wavelength is an objective reality. The closeness or farness of those peaks is what determines which color we see. While this specific instance doesn't define an actual wavelength for this hypothetical photon, it does resemble the wave structure of a photon in general. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted August 1, 2021 Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Is there also such a thing as Preservation's Truest Metal then? Yes, Lerasium 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted August 2, 2021 Report Share Posted August 2, 2021 11 hours ago, mathiau said: Vertical symmetry (Honour) or horizontal symmetry (Cultivation) Wait, why is vertical symmetry of Honor but horizontal of Cultivation? I appear to have missed this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor #5 Posted August 2, 2021 Report Share Posted August 2, 2021 12 hours ago, Frustration said: Yes, Lerasium OK, it makes sense, I really don't like it. Why is it something outside the context of regular allomancy? Is Adhesion also outside the standard Surges? Are the Shards just inconsistent? ¤_¤ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted August 2, 2021 Report Share Posted August 2, 2021 4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: OK, it makes sense, I really don't like it. Why is it something outside the context of regular allomancy? Is Adhesion also outside the standard Surges? Are the Shards just inconsistent? ¤_¤ Well every shard has a metal, not every shard has a surge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truthwatcher Artifabrian he/him Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 (edited) On 8/1/2021 at 5:52 AM, Inquisitor #5 said: I like this as it makes several things known to be part of the functioning of Urithiru Sibling-adjacent, Transportation for the Oathgates, Transformation in the shield fabrial, Cohesion in the walls/doors. I'm less sure about how/if Division fits in, but since I'm of the oppinion that the Suppressor fabrial messes with Connection, I could see it maybe being Spiritual Division or somesuch. That’s true. I didn’t notice that. Division doesn’t necessarily have to fit in, since we’ve already lost symmetry when the left side has more surges than the right side. Edited August 3, 2021 by Truthwatcher Artifabrian 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truthwatcher Artifabrian he/him Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 (edited) On 7/31/2021 at 9:22 AM, Halyo_Alex said: Actually, with the way it intensifies and peaks in the middle, it almost looks like a quantum wavefunction, but sideways. Like a... photon... I think it looks like they just by coincidence, because I spaced out the surges weird. You could space them out differently and get a very different look. edit: sorry for the double post. Edited August 3, 2021 by Truthwatcher Artifabrian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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