Quick Ben he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 (edited) Finding the need to comment on Dalinar again, as see alot of people. 1. Cutting Dalinar too much slack, for what he did. 2. Attempting to say Dalinar changed mostly by himself (completly wrong). Facts are this: Dalinar has not been redeemed - he never can be Dalinar would of become Odiums champion without Cultivations intervention (he nearly did anyway). Cultivation took alot more then "just memories" saying thats all that was taken is misleading in the extreme. She took memories ya, but she also took his motivations for being who he had been, she effectively hit reset on who he was as a person, and left an empty vessel which could be filled different to how he had been. Dalinar wasn't pruned he was unmade, The differences between Dalinar pre nightwatcher and the Dalinar we first encounter are so stark doesn't seem the same person, why ? Cultivation - so was alot more then "memories" she took, Dalinar only gets this slack from people because of how he is when first meet him, the first ideal of radiance is : Journey before destination - Dalinar didn't do this. Everyone hates Amaram and Moash (alot of Moashs actions are perfectly understandable), yet there crimes pale in comparison to Dalinars, why the different treatment for them ? Edited May 12, 2021 by Quick Ben
Frustration Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Dalinar has not been redeemed - he never can be Now that is an outright lie, there is nothing Dalinar could have done that is irredemable. 3 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Dalinar would of become Odiums champion without Cultivations intervention (he nearly did anyway). Dalinar with or without Cultivation would have fallen if he himself didn't grow and resist 3 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Cultivation took alot more then "just memories" saying thats all that was taken is misleading in the extreme. She took memories ya, but she also took his motivations for being who he had been, she effectively hit reset on who he was as a person, and left an empty vessel which could be filled different to how he had been. Dalinar wasn't pruned he was unmade, no, she took memories, you seem to severly overestimate the amount of influence a shard can use over a person. 3 hours ago, Quick Ben said: The differences between Dalinar pre nightwatcher and the Dalinar we first encounter are so stark doesn't seem the same person, why ? Cultivation - so was alot more then "memories" she took, No, the difference is he remade himself over the six year intermission. 3 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Dalinar only gets this slack from people because of how he is when first meet him, the first ideal of radiance is : Journey before destination - Dalinar didn't do this. No, OB is the only reason I actually like him. 3 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Everyone hates Amaram and Moash (alot of Moashs actions are perfectly understandable), yet there crimes pale in comparison to Dalinars, why the different treatment for them ? I do not hate them 1
therunner he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 (edited) EDIT: Beaten by a Frustration by 2 minutes, damn it 4 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Facts are this: Dalinar has not been redeemed - he never can be This is literally an opinion and not a fact. Whether or not can he be redeemed is very subjective, depending on ones ethics. In world, it seems a lot of Alethi would not even see a need to redeem him. In eyes of others he probably still have work to do but is at least on the right track now (Mink I think would be of this opinion). 4 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Dalinar would of become Odiums champion without Cultivations intervention (he nearly did anyway). Dalinar might have become Odium's champion without Cultivation's intervention, and might not have. The chance is higher he would have, but it would be his choice, just like not joining Odium was his choice. 4 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Cultivation took alot more then "just memories" saying thats all that was taken is misleading in the extreme. She took memories ya, but she also took his motivations for being who he had been, she effectively hit reset on who he was as a person, and left an empty vessel which could be filled different to how he had been. Dalinar wasn't pruned he was unmade, The differences between Dalinar pre nightwatcher and the Dalinar we first encounter are so stark doesn't seem the same person, why ? Cultivation - so was alot more then "memories" she took, Dalinar only gets this slack from people because of how he is when first meet him, the first ideal of radiance is : Journey before destination - Dalinar didn't do this. No, Cultivation took only memories and what she calls "compulsion" (possibly his addiction to alcohol?). In addition, she says that what she took will grow back, and by end of Oathbringer this has happened, so now Dalinar has everything she took from him back. She literally says she will not make him the man he could be, nor will she give him aptitude, strength or will to do so -> i.e. the journey (to become a better man) was still ahead of him, it was just easier for him to walk it now. The only thing we know for sure she took are memories and some nebulous 'compulsion', all else is conjecture without much evidence. And to call what happened to him 'unmaking' is quite hyperbolic. 4 hours ago, Quick Ben said: 4 hours ago, Quick Ben said: 1. Cutting Dalinar too much slack, for what he did. What he did in Rathalas was partly driven by Thrill as he was consumed by it for hours on his trip back into camp, and still in its throes when burning Rathalas (he says it would not let him sleep). In fact even before Dalinar learns that Evi is in city he pushes the Thrill back and thinks they went too far (showing that Thrill did have some influence on his decision making). He still did it, he was not mind controlled into doing so, but being fueled by Thrill for hours after nearly dying most likely has some effects (as we know by testimony of Jah Kaved soldiers, Thrill almost makes you want to fight on). Outside of that he is no more a monster than any other Alethi nobleman, in fact he seems to be much better than they even before (he does not seem actively prejudiced against dark-eyes soldiers for example). 4 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Attempting to say Dalinar changed mostly by himself (completly wrong). I would actually even say Dalinar has not changed that much, he was honorable in Alethi sense (giving a chance to surrender, recruiting even among foes), loyal (to Gavilar mainly, and his family), with a bit more compassion than usual for Alethi (his sparing of Tanalan which was even before he met Evi) and later with some respect for non-Alethi virtues (albeit suppressed, but he does come to think of himself as unworthy of Evi even before being pruned by Cultivation). Sure on a battlefield he was an absolute monster in terms of skill and sheer brutality, but at the same time he was driven by Thrill as other Alethi are, he was just much better than others. After reading Way of Kings he just had a better role model (in Nohadon) of what kind of man he could be, kernels of which were already present (compassion, mercy, honor closer to modern standards, etc). Thanks to Cultivation's intervention he had much easier time of growing towards that ideal (as he no longer had to combat PTSD and alcoholism), but it was him who decided what kind of man he wants to be. 4 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Everyone hates Amaram and Moash (alot of Moashs actions are perfectly understandable), yet there crimes pale in comparison to Dalinars, why the different treatment for them ? I cannot speak for everyone, but I think it is because Dalinar never betrays people on his 'side'? Amaram betrayed Kaladin, his subordinate, and later joins Odium. Moash betrayed his oath and his friend Kaladin, in trying to kill Elkohar (not saying he did not have grounds to do so, he most certainly did), and then went further and killed Teft. Both of them betrayed people that should be their allies, in pursuit of personal goals, and that is something people generally frown upon. Dalinar commuted horrible crime in Rathalas, but I guess because in-group/out-group thinking is quite ingrained it does not feel as bad as betraying an ally? So while I think that Dalinar committed worse crimes, I would feel I can trust him to some extent because of this, whereas with Amaram and Moash I would not feel able to trust them. Edited May 12, 2021 by therunner 3
ScadrianTank he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 6 hours ago, Quick Ben said: The differences between Dalinar pre nightwatcher and the Dalinar we first encounter are so stark doesn't seem the same person, why ? Cultivation - so was alot more then "memories" she took Before going to the valley, Dalinar had no way he knew of to work on his trauma. His family just assumed that because he's the Blackthorn - he'll be okay, and those who might have known that he needed help were afraid of him because, again, the Blackthorn. That drove him to alcoholism. After Gavilar died, Dalinar was ashamed of his failure to protect his brother, yet unable to fix the problem without going insane. Then he went to see the Nightwatcher, hoping to fix the problems he couldn't. Cultivation only took his memories, unless you think that she is lying in the text. Quote THIS WILL BE YOUR BOON. I WILL NOT MAKE OF YOU THE MAN YOU CAN BECOME. I WILL NOT GIVE YOU THE APTITUDE, OR THE STRENGTH, NOR WILL I TAKE FROM YOU YOUR COMPULSIONS. BUT I WILL GIVE YOU … A PRUNING. A CAREFUL EXCISION TO LET YOU GROW. THE COST WILL BE HIGH. We can see later in the text that he still feels the urge to drink but chooses to act upon it himself. Quote It seemed that the Nightwatcher had taken memories of his wife, and in so doing, given him the boon of peace. However, he did still feel sorrow and guilt for failing Gavilar, so he wasn’t completely healed. He still wanted a bottle to numb the grief of losing his brother. He would break that habit. When men abused drink under his command, he’d found that the solution was to work them hard, and not let them taste strong wines. He could do the same to himself. It wouldn’t be easy, but he could manage it. On 10.05.2021 at 0:58 AM, Quick Ben said: People always seem to be too willing to cut Dalinar slack, Dalinar wasn't seeking to redeem himself or atone for what he had done, what he wanted was forgiveness without redeeming or atoning for what he done (not that he can) So what is your point? You say that Dalinar did something that he can't atone for, but he's at fault for not seeking that impossible atonement? Because he does recognize that what he did is horrible, and he can't do anything about it. So he decides to go on and do better. 1
Aspiring Writer Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Finding the need to comment on Dalinar again, as see alot of people. 1. Cutting Dalinar too much slack, for what he did. 2. Attempting to say Dalinar changed mostly by himself (completly wrong) And I find you are taking too much credit away from him. We can do this for eternity mate. We have acknowledged he had help, we are just making it clear that the path and decisions he made were still him. That we see that he didn't have to become a better person, that he could have not become a better person, but he does. You cannot take that away from him. 8 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Facts are this: Dalinar has not been redeemed - he never can be That is by your standards. I agree he has not been redeemed yet but that he is on the right track to doing so 8 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Dalinar would of become Odiums champion without Cultivations intervention (he nearly did anyway). Yes, he would not have been strong enough to resist Odium. I don't see how that's a point against his character to not being capable of resisting a Shard without another Shard giving a helping hand. It's a pretty difficult thing to do. And yeah, he nearly did fall, but he didn't, because he had grown strong enough to handle the memories and take a step forward. 8 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Cultivation took alot more then "just memories" saying thats all that was taken is misleading in the extreme. She took memories ya, but she also took his motivations for being who he had been, she effectively hit reset on who he was as a person, and left an empty vessel which could be filled different to how he had been. Dalinar wasn't pruned he was unmade, No, quite the opposite, you're the one constantly misleading and overstating what she did when she outright states what she did. @ScadrianTank ALready gave you the quote and explained it pretty well (credit to him) but she did not reset him. He was no empty vessel, he still had this need to drink, he still was a tactical genius, he was still guilty for not helping his brother, he still had his love for Navani and his sons, and he had already had an interest in the Way of Kings and still does after the memories, so how was he an empty vessel? 9 hours ago, Quick Ben said: The differences between Dalinar pre nightwatcher and the Dalinar we first encounter are so stark doesn't seem the same person, why ? Cultivation - so was alot more then "memories" she took, Mate. You do understand that people can change over several years, yes? That he has been trying to follow the codes and follow a path of Honor, which he hadn't been doing pre-nightwatcher? Why do you just keep making everything Cultivation. It's the 'it was me, barry!' meme all over again. Actually, screw it, I'm making that meme. Here. Spoiler 9 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Dalinar only gets this slack from people because of how he is when first meet him, the first ideal of radiance is : Journey before destination - Dalinar didn't do this. No, I like him because he knows what he did was wrong, feels guilty about it, and has been trying to make himself a better person, even to the point of writing a book revealing what he had done, which could not have been easy. Also, he has definitely done that first ideal, you haven't proven otherwise. He recognizes the importance of the journey by OB, and how it's the journey to change is as important as the change. 9 hours ago, Quick Ben said: Everyone hates Amaram and Moash (alot of Moashs actions are perfectly understandable), yet there crimes pale in comparison to Dalinars, why the different treatment for them ? I don't hate Moash. And I have mixed feelings about Amaram because he has signs of being delusional, being a Son of Honor. So what different treatment? 1
Quick Ben he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 6 hours ago, Frustration said: Now that is an outright lie, there is nothing Dalinar could have done that is irredemable. If you think mass murder of innocents is redeemable then i don't know what to say 6 hours ago, therunner said: EDIT: Beaten by a Frustration by 2 minutes, damn it This is literally an opinion and not a fact. Whether or not can he be redeemed is very subjective, depending on ones ethics. In world, it seems a lot of Alethi would not even see a need to redeem him. In eyes of others he probably still have work to do but is at least on the right track now (Mink I think would be of this opinion). As per the above, and in reality it is a fact, you would need a moral compose pretty screwed to believe someone who commited mass murder of innocents is redeemable. 1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said: That is by your standards. I agree he has not been redeemed yet but that he is on the right track to doing so By anyones standards i would hope. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: Dalinar with or without Cultivation would have fallen if he himself didn't grow and resist Growth directed by Cultivation, wasn't really personal growth, when that growth was directed. 6 hours ago, therunner said: Dalinar might have become Odium's champion without Cultivation's intervention, and might not have. The chance is higher he would have, but it would be his choice, just like not joining Odium was his choice. I think its pretty clear he would of. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: no, she took memories, you seem to severly overestimate the amount of influence a shard can use over a person. 6 hours ago, therunner said: No, Cultivation took only memories and what she calls "compulsion" (possibly his addiction to alcohol?). In addition, she says that what she took will grow back, and by end of Oathbringer this has happened, so now Dalinar has everything she took from him back. She literally says she will not make him the man he could be, nor will she give him aptitude, strength or will to do so -> i.e. the journey (to become a better man) was still ahead of him, it was just easier for him to walk it now. The only thing we know for sure she took are memories and some nebulous 'compulsion', all else is conjecture without much evidence. And to call what happened to him 'unmaking' is quite hyperbolic. 3 hours ago, ScadrianTank said: Before going to the valley, Dalinar had no way he knew of to work on his trauma. His family just assumed that because he's the Blackthorn - he'll be okay, and those who might have known that he needed help were afraid of him because, again, the Blackthorn. That drove him to alcoholism. After Gavilar died, Dalinar was ashamed of his failure to protect his brother, yet unable to fix the problem without going insane. Then he went to see the Nightwatcher, hoping to fix the problems he couldn't. Cultivation only took his memories, unless you think that she is lying in the text. We can see later in the text that he still feels the urge to drink but chooses to act upon it himself. Yes she took memories, do ye believe just taking those memories, effected all the change in Dalinar ? Personnally i don't, i think she removed/blocked out the things making him the man in those memories, thus what i mean when i say took his motivations, if don't agree thats fine, but imo if read between the lines that is what she did. She "pruned" away the negative aspects making him who he was, then directed his growth, like with a plant you use a stick to guide its growth how you want. And yes he stopped drinking - because the reason he needed to was gone... 1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said: Yes, he would not have been strong enough to resist Odium. I don't see how that's a point against his character to not being capable of resisting a Shard without another Shard giving a helping hand. It's a pretty difficult thing to do. And yeah, he nearly did fall, but he didn't, because he had grown strong enough to handle the memories and take a step forward. No, quite the opposite, you're the one constantly misleading and overstating what she did when she outright states what she did. @ScadrianTank ALready gave you the quote and explained it pretty well (credit to him) but she did not reset him. He was no empty vessel, he still had this need to drink, he still was a tactical genius, he was still guilty for not helping his brother, he still had his love for Navani and his sons, and he had already had an interest in the Way of Kings and still does after the memories, so how was he an empty vessel? Mate. You do understand that people can change over several years, yes? That he has been trying to follow the codes and follow a path of Honor, which he hadn't been doing pre-nightwatcher? Why do you just keep making everything Cultivation. It's the 'it was me, barry!' meme all over again. Actually, screw it, I'm making that meme. Here. This is only my second or third post in this thread so you seem to be confusing me with someone else, Sorry if missed points that were made, but on mobile so awkward. Also ye are all entitled to ye're opinion on Dalinar, just remember so am i.
Frustration Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 39 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: If you think mass murder of innocents is redeemable then i don't know what to say Everything Dalinar did and more is redeemable. 40 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: As per the above, and in reality it is a fact, you would need a moral compose pretty screwed to believe someone who commited mass murder of innocents is redeemable. A srewed up moral compose! The belief that good can ultimatly triuph over any evil is a screwed up moral compose! 42 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: By anyones standards i would hope. I refuse to live in a world where people who honestly want redemption cannot get it. 43 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: Growth directed by Cultivation, wasn't really personal growth, when that growth was directed. So breaking addiction with a councilers help doesn't count? 44 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: Yes she took memories, do ye believe just taking those memories, effected all the change in Dalinar ? Personnally i don't, i think she removed/blocked out the things making him the man in those memories, thus what i mean when i say took his motivations, if don't agree thats fine, but imo if read between the lines that is what she did. She "pruned" away the negative aspects making him who he was, then directed his growth, like with a plant you use a stick to guide its growth how you want. Dalinar didn't walk out of the valley the person he was in WoK, he had six years of growth in between. 46 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: And yes he stopped drinking - because the reason he needed to was gone... Because he worked and broke the addiction 47 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: Sorry if missed points that were made, but on mobile so awkward. You quoted one of mine without saying anything. Yes mobile sucks. 47 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: Also ye are all entitled to ye're opinion on Dalinar, just remember so am i. I'm also entitled to disagree, and so are you.
Quick Ben he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, Frustration said: Everything Dalinar did and more is redeemable. A srewed up moral compose! The belief that good can ultimatly triuph over any evil is a screwed up moral compose! I refuse to live in a world where people who honestly want redemption cannot get it. Meant compass. Apologies. Some acts in my opinion are irredemable, by your argument every despot throughout history is redeemable as long as they are contrite, i just don't agree. 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: So breaking addiction with a councilers help doesn't count? Dalinar didn't walk out of the valley the person he was in WoK, he had six years of growth in between. Because he worked and broke the addiction Yes it counts, but he wasn't helped in that way, the need was removed, which is different. And i agree he grew in in those 6 years, but he i still maintain he grew in the way/direction Cultivation "pruned" him to grow. The evidence to that is the definition of the word pruned. 20 minutes ago, Frustration said: I'm also entitled to disagree, and so are you. 100% agree
Frustration Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Quick Ben said: Meant compass. Apologies. You're good 3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: Some acts in my opinion are irredemable, by your argument every despot throughout history is redeemable as long as they are contrite, i just don't agree. Not contrite, accept that they did it, acknowledge it was wrong, and forsake who they were and become a better person, yes. 4 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: Yes it counts, but he wasn't helped in that way, the need was removed, which is different. The addiction to alchohol was still there. 4 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: And i agree he grew in in those 6 years, but he i still maintain he grew in the way/direction Cultivation "pruned" him to grow. The evidence to that is the definition of the word pruned. Therapists make plans for people to imrpove by.
Aspiring Writer Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: by your argument every despot throughout history is redeemable as long as they are contrite, i just don't agree. If every despot in history then proceeded to try and become a better person and make up for what they had done, then yes. Dalinar did not simply feel bad, he acted on that feeling. 6 minutes ago, Quick Ben said: i still maintain he grew in the way/direction Cultivation "pruned" him to grow. The evidence to that is the definition of the word pruned. Definition of the word pruned Spoiler Summary: removing bad part of a plant so it can continue to grow. She removed the trauma from Dalinar so he could continue to grow. There is nothing saying she dictates how.
Quick Ben he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: Everything Dalinar did and more is redeemable. A srewed up moral compose! The belief that good can ultimatly triuph over any evil is a screwed up moral compose! I refuse to live in a world where people who honestly want redemption cannot get it. So breaking addiction with a councilers help doesn't count? Dalinar didn't walk out of the valley the person he was in WoK, he had six years of growth in between. Because he worked and broke the addiction You quoted one of mine without saying anything. Yes mobile sucks. I'm also entitled to disagree, and so are you. As i mentioned in my original reply, it wasnt me you were even talking to.....but yoi ignored that fact, Here is the definition of pruned for you: cut away (a branch or stem) from a tree, shrub, etc. reduce the extent of (something) by removing superfluous or unwanted parts. to cut off or cut back parts of for better shape or more fruitful growth prune the branches. intransitive verb. : to cut away what is unwanted or superfluous The terminology used in my opinion shows more was done then "just memories" taken,. If you disagree then good for you, but reading between the lines, and using the differences in Dalinar before and after Cultivation in my opinion you can see that more then 2 memories were taken, 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: Not contrite, accept that they did it, acknowledge it was wrong, and forsake who they were and become a better person, yes. Thats just where we disagree so, 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: The addiction to alchohol was still there. Therapists make plans for people to imrpove by. Unless im mistakem, fromnthe second he is leaving the valley he decides doesn't need alcohal, which would imply hes need for it is gone. 7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said: If every despot in history then proceeded to try and become a better person and make up for what they had done, then yes. Dalinar did not simply feel bad, he acted on that feeling. As i said to frustration i just don't agree with that sentiment. 8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said: Definition of the word pruned Reveal hidden contents Summary: removing bad part of a plant so it can continue to grow. She removed the trauma from Dalinar so he could continue to grow. There is nothing saying she dictates how. By cutting away the "bad parts" you direct the plant or in this case person, how to grow. Unsure why moderator needs to approve what i post now
Chaos he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 Okay, you all are going to cool down. I have had to remove several mean/disrespectful comments (and responses to them) and will be contacting people for Code of Conduct violations. If you don't have nice things to say, then don't say them at all. Cool down. Arguments on the internet do not matter and there's no reason to get heated. 3
Bejarden he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 This is my thought process on this: 1: The path Dalinar was on was to become an even more insane depot that would continue to kill people + 2: He was only saved because of Cultivation’s interference = 3: Cultivation caused Dalinars change alot of you seem to be referencing therapies and stuff which isn’t relevant here because over here Cultivation did the heavy lifting and Dalinar just asked to be fixed for his own sake, and not to help the people he’s hurt
Frustration Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: This is my thought process on this: 1: The path Dalinar was on was to become an even more insane depot that would continue to kill people Dalinar listened to WoK and decided to change before going to the NIghtwatcher.
Bejarden he/him Posted May 12, 2021 Posted May 12, 2021 We get his future in the forest scene and it is not a good one Just now, Frustration said: Dalinar listened to WoK and decided to change before going to the NIghtwatcher.
theTruthshaper Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: This is my thought process on this: 1: The path Dalinar was on was to become an even more insane depot that would continue to kill people + 2: He was only saved because of Cultivation’s interference = 3: Cultivation caused Dalinars change alot of you seem to be referencing therapies and stuff which isn’t relevant here because over here Cultivation did the heavy lifting and Dalinar just asked to be fixed for his own sake, and not to help the people he’s hurt This is just untrue? You can also say that only reason he became who he was was because of the Thrill, so it's not really his fault. Humans are always influenced by outside stuff, you can hardly say that it doesn't count when that influence makes it easier for them to improve but it counts when the influence makes them worse. Also, this is an older statement, but On 10/5/2021 at 1:20 AM, Bejardin1250 said: Sacrifice makes you worthy, and I felt that Dalinar did not make any of those until after Cultivation had changed him I feel that this is a completely wrong way to think about things. You do not have to *sacrifice* things to become a better person. You do not need to be*worthy* to become a better person. You just.. have to be a better person. Edited May 13, 2021 by theTruthshaper
Bejarden he/him Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said: This is just untrue? You can also say that only reason he became who he was was because of the Thrill, so it's not really his fault. Humans are always influenced by outside stuff, you can hardly say that it doesn't count when that influence makes it easier for them to improve but it counts when the influence makes them worse. There’s a difference between influence and direct change the thrill was an influence, it flared your emotions while Cultivation made something completely new and not really connected to Dalinar
theTruthshaper Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 Just now, Bejardin1250 said: There’s a difference between influence and direct change the thrill was an influence, it flared your emotions while Cultivation made something completely new and not really connected to Dalinar This is not true, she merely took his memories, (and possibly some of his bloodthirst/battlethirst). Most of Dalinar was still there.
Bejarden he/him Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 Just now, theTruthshaper said: This is not true, she merely took his memories, (and possibly some of his bloodthirst/battlethirst). Most of Dalinar was still there. We got a look at what Dalinar would have been without Cultivation, it was a horrible evil look After Cultivation something else happened Saying Cultivation had a very little affect is completely incorrect
theTruthshaper Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 Just now, Bejardin1250 said: We got a look at what Dalinar would have been without Cultivation, it was a horrible evil look After Cultivation something else happened Saying Cultivation had a very little affect is completely incorrect I never said Cultivation had very little effect? I just said that Cultivation didn't create a *new* person who was *unconnected* from Dalinar. Also, do you think the Rathalas would still have happened without the Thrill? Would there have been even a chance of Dalinar becoming Odium's Champion, without the Thrill?
Bejarden he/him Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, theTruthshaper said: never said Cultivation had very little effect? I just said that Cultivation didn't create a *new* person who was *unconnected* from Dalinar. Nobody said he was a new person, at least I never did He was an incredibly changes person when someone takes away what makes a man his memories and his drive what if that man is left? Only the good parts, 2 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said: Also, do you think the Rathalas would still have happened without the Thrill? Would there have been even a chance of Dalinar becoming Odium's Champion, without the Thrill? Yes, Sadeas would have found a way to convince Dalinar, maybe even killing Evi himself to do it
Frustration Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: There’s a difference between influence and direct change the thrill was an influence, it flared your emotions while Cultivation made something completely new and not really connected to Dalinar Cultivation didn't change him, shards do not have the ability to do that, she only took memories 7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: when someone takes away what makes a man his memories and his drive what if that man is left? Only the good parts, A soul is left. 7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: Yes, Sadeas would have found a way to convince Dalinar, maybe even killing Evi himself to do it Killing Evi? Who wasn't there? Dalinar would have gone for an assult as planned not burned it to the ground.
theTruthshaper Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: Nobody said he was a new person, at least I never did You... did? Here: 30 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: while Cultivation made something completely new and not really connected to Dalinar 18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: He was an incredibly changes person when someone takes away what makes a man his memories and his drive what if that man is left? Only the good parts, I am extremely confused. A man is memories + drive + good stuff? (Or do you particularly mean Dalinar is?) Why is his drive what makes him? 18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: Yes, Sadeas would have found a way to convince Dalinar, maybe even killing Evi himself to do it Well, we hardly have any evidence for this either way, so all I can say this that this seems extremely unlikely, but we'll probably have to agree to disagree. The thing you call as a "horrible evil look" was Dalinar being Odium's Champion, right? Do you think that is likely, or even possible, without the Thrill? 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Cultivation didn't change him, shards do not have the ability to do that, she only took memories You have no evidence of the second claim. Edited May 13, 2021 by theTruthshaper
Frustration Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said: You have no evidence of the second claim. Only taking memories? You mean evedence aside from her own words?
theTruthshaper Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) Just now, Frustration said: Only taking memories? You mean evedence aside from her own words? That shards cannot change people Edited May 13, 2021 by theTruthshaper
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