The Dilemma of Justice and Choice

[Bejarden he/him]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

You can ask God.

Subject to debate actually

If you hurt someone you do have to do that in addition to the person you hurt but that’s more theological

and seeing as Cultivation isn’t g-d and Dalinar doesn’t think she is it’s meaningless 

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

So you're entirely right, but you're ignoring the journey because you don't like how it started. 

A path to redemption doesn’t start at the middle it starts in the beginning 

 

6 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Did you ignore my post? He did not ask for forgiveness from the Nightwatcher or Cultivation, he asked, "Can I ever be forgiven", which is very different, your argument is pointless.

This is incorrect he asks for forgiveness 

You can read the scene 

he asks for forgiveness, then says can I ever be forgiveness, and then goes back to forgiveness 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Just for clarification because I think this can be said clearer.

Redemption starts by accepting and confessing that you did x, and x is wrong, and then by choosing to be someone else, forsaking who you were in exchange for being someone better

The only reason Dalinar wanted to be forgiven is because he wanted the voices to stop

[Aspiring Writer]

13 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This is incorrect he asks for forgiveness 

You can read the scene 

he asks for forgiveness, then says can I ever be forgiveness, and then goes back to forgiveness 

he doesn't ask it from them, you're taking the first one as him asking forgiveness from them when he is saying he wants forgiveness. And yes, I have read the scene, I have the book right here.

 

13 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Subject to debate actually

If you hurt someone you do have to do that in addition to the person you hurt but that’s more theological

and seeing as Cultivation isn’t g-d and Dalinar doesn’t think she is it’s meaningless 

He does recognize her as such when they meet

 

13 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

A path to redemption doesn’t start at the middle it starts in the beginning 

And you dislike his beginning because he didn't immediately start repenting despite his mental state being near mad, and keep saying he doesn't care about the people he hurt. he clearly does, that's the guilt he feels, and him asking a higher power that dictates morality does not mean he doesn't care. It's not like he can ask the dead for forgiveness. 

 

13 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The only reason Dalinar wanted to be forgiven is because he wanted the voices to stop

He feels guilty, that's why the voices affect him so much. The reason he even has the voices is because of his guilt, so yes, he feels bad. he didn't have to feel bad, the Alethi supported what he had done and saw it as just, if brutal. Instead, the people he killed haunted him. You are going to have to accept that.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Bejarden he/him]

37 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

he doesn't ask it from them, you're taking the first one as him asking forgiveness from them when he is saying he wants forgiveness. And yes, I have read the scene, I have the book right here.

He mentions what he wants 3 times... 2 of those are asking for forgiveness 

And he never asks Cultivation for anything only the Nightwatcher

39 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

And you dislike his beginning because he didn't immediately start repenting despite his mental state being near mad, and keep saying he doesn't care about the people he hurt. he clearly does, that's the guilt he feels, and him asking a higher power that dictates morality does not mean he doesn't care. It's not like he can ask the dead for forgiveness. 

He is not near mad, when he is sober he is fine, except for the voices 

 

40 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

He feels guilty, that's why the voices affect him so much. The reason he even has the voices is because of his guilt, so yes, he feels bad. he didn't have to feel bad, the Alethi supported what he had done and saw it as just, if brutal. Instead, the people he killed haunted him. You are going to have to accept that.

Screams=\=guilt they are supernaturaly caused by the amount of the people he has killed

I don’t have to accept anything when I’m right

 

[Leuthie]

 

51 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

A path to redemption doesn’t start at the middle it starts in the beginning 

 

Profound. Every path starts at the beginning. The beginning actually defines the starting point of the path. A lot of paths are smaller pieces of longer paths. So, these paths start in the middle of those larger paths. What I'm saying is that sometimes a path to redemption starts in the middle.

53 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The only reason Dalinar wanted to be forgiven is because he wanted the voices to stop

 

Look up: "There's no such thing as a selfless act."

[Bejarden he/him]

4 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Profound. Every path starts at the beginning. The beginning actually defines the starting point of the path. A lot of paths are smaller pieces of longer paths. So, these paths start in the middle of those larger paths. What I'm saying is that sometimes a path to redemption starts in the middle.

I’m confused I already said Dalinar is redeemed as of RoW what I’m saying is that this happened later, 

Are you saying the same thing?

5 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Look up: "There's no such thing as a selfless act."

But there are selfish intentions 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

A path to redemption doesn’t start at the middle it starts in the beginning 

So asking someone for help isn't allowed?

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Frustration

[Bejarden he/him]

Asking someone to solve all your problems doesn’t mean anything, yes

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Asking someone to solve all your problems doesn’t mean anything, yes

So having a counciler means that you didn't overcome adiction in a legitemate way?

 

The fact of the matter is that Cultivation didn't do everything, she couldn't Shards do not have the power to effect people (without serious spiritual wounds) in such a way.

The only thing Cultivation did was remove some memories for a few years. Dalinar worked to break his alcholism, curb his bloodlust, follow the tenets of The Way of Kings, refuse to give Odium his pain, and accept responsibility.

[Bejarden he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

So having a counciler means that you didn't overcome adiction in a legitemate way?

 

The fact of the matter is that Cultivation didn't do everything, she couldn't Shards do not have the power to effect people (without serious spiritual wounds) in such a way.

The only thing Cultivation did was remove some memories for a few years. Dalinar worked to break his alcholism, curb his bloodlust, follow the tenets of The Way of Kings, refuse to give Odium his pain, and accept responsibility.

But he had no desire to do that until after Cultivation 

Therefore it was due to cultivation 

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

But he had no desire to do that until after Cultivation 

Therefore it was due to cultivation 

So you aren't allowed to have other people help you?

[Bejarden he/him]

Well...

now I’m confused 

Cultivation is the sole reason Dalinar changed right

can we agree on that @Frustration

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Well...

now I’m confused 

Cultivation is the sole reason Dalinar changed right

can we agree on that @Frustration

No I do not agree, Gavilar was a strong influence, Nohadon had a strong influence, The God Beyond had a strong influence, etc.

Cultivation was an increadibly strong influence herself but sole reason is too much credit.

[Bejarden he/him]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No I do not agree, Gavilar was a strong influence, Nohadon had a strong influence, The God Beyond had a strong influence, etc.

Cultivation was an increadibly strong influence herself but sole reason is too much credit.

Fine I agree I overstated that let me try again

Would Dalinar have changed without Cultivation 

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Fine I agree I overstated that let me try again

Would Dalinar have changed without Cultivation 

Likely not to the extent he did.

[Bejarden he/him]

...ok

so I am giving Cultivation credit for Dalinar change because without her it would not have happened  

 

[Leuthie]

I give Evi credit because he wouldn't have changed without her.

[Bejarden he/him]

K great so Dalinar gets no credit, that proves my point to

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

...ok

so I am giving Cultivation credit for Dalinar change because without her it would not have happened  

 

So? People can accept help, that's not unreasonable

15 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

K great so Dalinar gets no credit, that proves my point to

NO No no no no, that is not the case.

See Dalinar wanted to change, from the moment he heard Jasnah reading WoK change was inevitable.

If Dalianr hadn't wanted to become a better man he would never have gone to the nightwatcher, he would have fallen to dispair and he would have become Odium's champion.

But that isn't the case.

[Bejarden he/him]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So? People can accept help, that's not unreasonable

There’s a difference between ‘help’ and ‘let me do all the work for you’

 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

NO No no no no, that is not the case.

See Dalinar wanted to change, from the moment he heard Jasnah reading WoK change was inevitable.

 

No he wanted to change because he couldn’t handle the screams

he tried the ardent, he tried the drink, the Nightwatcher was only next

Edited May 12, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He mentions what he wants 3 times... 2 of those are asking for forgiveness 

And he never asks Cultivation for anything only the Nightwatcher

he only asks twice actually. he says forgiveness first, and then he clarifies if he can ever be forgiven. there is no third.

 

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He is not near mad, when he is sober he is fine, except for the voices 

...that's a pretty big thing. And I think you're forgetting that when he is sober he is desperate for drink because there are other times he is sober when he is able to hold himself together. That isn't him being fine, that's him trying to not show what he considers weakness to anyone.

 

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Screams=\=guilt they are supernaturaly caused by the amount of the people he has killed

You assume they are supernatural. I get there is a precedent that it could be by Szeth, but there is nothing saying it is, and he doesn't have to feel bad for the voices haunting him if he thinks he's right. Sort of like a misguided someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

25 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

There’s a difference between ‘help’ and ‘let me do all the work for you’

Alright, listen here. We have confirmation that Dalinar could've fallen to Odium. Cultivation literally says she would not give him the strength or anything to change, just pruning. The story is literally telling you that the change is Dalinar. He had help, yes, but people need help to change, everyone needs help to change.

 

27 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

No he wanted to change because he couldn’t handle the screams

he tried the ardent, he tried the drink, the Nightwatcher was only next

You are simplifying it. You can want the screaming gone and feel bad and want to change, the screams serving as a constant reminder. Sadeas didn't feel bad for his part in it, and he was the one who suggested the plan. Dalinar did not have to feel bad for what he did, but he does, and wants to change. Yes, he hopes the screams will go away then, but you can have both selfish and selfless intentions for the same goal.

 

56 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Would Dalinar have changed without Cultivation

Would a depressed person stop being depressed without the help of his therapist? Possibly, but that doesn't take away about what the depressed person did to not become depressed. Both get credit for their part, you can just take it away because someone gave a helping hand.

[Bejarden he/him]

Quote

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

 

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

he only asks twice actually. he says forgiveness first, and then he clarifies if he can ever be forgiven. there is no third.

 

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Then later he says he asked for forgiveness 

 

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Alright, listen here. We have confirmation that Dalinar could've fallen to Odium. Cultivation literally says she would not give him the strength or anything to change, just pruning. The story is literally telling you that the change is Dalinar. He had help, yes, but people need help to change, everyone needs help to change.

 Dalinar would not have fallen to Odium without Cultivation

He would have remained a despot destroying more cities, he sees this

7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Dalinar did not have to feel bad for what he did, but he does, and wants to change. Yes, he hopes the screams will go away then, but you can have both selfish and selfless intentions for the same goal.

There was no selfless intentions, he only wants to change for himself

The screams are supernatural not a result of his guilt

9 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Would a depressed person stop being depressed without the help of his therapist? Possibly, but that doesn't take away about what the depressed person did to not become depressed. Both get credit for their part, you can just take it away because someone gave a helping hand.

You are oversimplifiing what Cultivation did. She did not ‘lend him a helping hand on his journey’ she took the first step for him setting him on his path 

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar would not have fallen to Odium without Cultivation

He would have remained a despot destroying more cities, he sees this

We have seen visions of the future be wrong. they are possibilities, not certainties. Emphasizing the importance of choice.

 

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

There was no selfless intentions, he only wants to change for himself

Can someone not want to change for themselves? Why is it selfish to want to be a better person for yourself?

 

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

You are oversimplifiing what Cultivation did. She did not ‘lend him a helping hand on his journey’ she took the first step for him setting him on his path

No, she did not. She makes it clear he could've taken a different path, granting Odium a weapon. She relieved the burden so he could have the strength to take the next steps, but he was the one to decide to take the next steps.

[Bejarden he/him]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

We have seen visions of the future be wrong. they are possibilities, not certainties. Emphasizing the importance of choice.

 

Dalinar didn’t know that

 

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Can someone not want to change for themselves? Why is it selfish to want to be a better person for yourself?

 

He didn’t want to be a better person he wanted the voices to stop 

why does the redeem yourself for the murder of hundreds

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

No, she did not. She makes it clear he could've taken a different path, granting Odium a weapon. She relieved the burden so he could have the strength to take the next steps, but he was the one to decide to take the next steps.

By pruning she gave Odium a weapon, that’s what she says 

if someone does all the work of paving a path and removes all obstacles away, someone walking on that path cannot claim credit for doing anything, everything was laid out for him by an outside entity

[Aspiring Writer]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar didn’t know that

Why does he have to?

 

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

if someone does all the work of paving a path and removes all obstacles away, someone walking on that path cannot claim credit for doing anything, everything was laid out for him by an outside entity

She didn't! That's the point you don't seem to understand, the only thing she did is remove the memories, he still had all the obstacles that path would have, just not the trauma of what he did at the Rift, which he received later when he had the strength to handle it, which we know he could've still not been, he could've chosen the other, easier at and joined Odium but doesn't, that choice is still his, the credit is still is, how do you not understand this?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

There’s a difference between ‘help’ and ‘let me do all the work for you’

Cultivation litterally couldn't do all the work for him, it's impossible for her to have done so.

 

47 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar would not have fallen to Odium without Cultivation

He would have remained a despot destroying more cities, he sees this

There was no selfless intentions, he only wants to change for himself

The screams are supernatural not a result of his guilt

You are oversimplifiing what Cultivation did. She did not ‘lend him a helping hand on his journey’ she took the first step for him setting him on his path 

First off the WoB litterally said it was a normal responce

Second off he had an instant negative reaction to the rift, he even tried to stop it halfway through

Cultivation helped, if Dalinar hadn't wanted it he would have fallen, Cultivation or not.