Understanding the scope of the protections afforded by the Shards' non-interference pact

[+mdross81 he/him]

I'll just go ahead and start with the TL;DR explanation. Below I go through a somewhat lengthy explanation of a theory that Honor may have somehow claimed all Rosharan humans as his representatives and delegated to them, collectively, authority over Odium's binding to the Rosharan system. This protects the humans from direct attacks of Odium by virtue of the Shards' non-interference pact. And I posit that Odium created the Unmade specifically to drive Honor out of the hearts of men and thereby cause them to give up that protection.

We start in RoW 99, where Wit and Jasnah have the following exchange about the contract they plan to present to Odium for the contest of champions:

Quote

“If you give Odium this contract – and get me the assurance that he cannot break free of this planetary system no matter what happens – then you won’t have to trust the hearts of mortals, Jasnah. Because you’ll have me. And everything I can give you.”

“You’ve told me he would destroy you if he found you.”

“We’ll add a line to the contract,” Wit said, “naming me as a contractual liaison for Honor – whom Dalinar represents. This will protect me from Odium’s direct attacks for the life of the contract. He will have to abide by those terms, as they are part of the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. To fail that promise would give others an opening against him, and said failures have killed gods before. Odium knows it. So do this, and I can help you openly. As myself.”

Super juicy stuff. There are different ways we could interpret Wit's line about the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. It could be that, because the others of the 16 knew that Odium was the most dangerous, they required a specific promise from Rayse. It could be that they all made a promise that they would hold to later promises or contracts that they make once they have taken up the Shards. But I think that the most straightforward and most likely meaning, given the context, is that this is a reference to the agreement among the Shards that they were not to interfere with one another.

Here's Edgli (Endowment) talking about the agreement in her letter to Hoid from the OB epigraphs:

Quote

You mustn’t worry yourself about Rayse. It is a pity about Aona and skai, but they were foolish – violating our pact from the very beginning. Your skills are admirable, but you are merely a man. You had your chance to be more, and refused it. No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement.

I'll note here, that for some time I was under the - I now think mistaken - impression that the agreement among the Shards (to the extent there was one) was that they would no co-locate. But Edgli says here that the agreement was that they would not "interfere with one another." In light of that, the reference to two Shards settling in one location seems to be her saying that she thinks if two Shards do that, they will inevitably interfere with one another. (Side note: This could also explain why - separate and apart from what Brandon has said about the Shards' agreement not rising to the level of an oath - Honor didn't view himself as violating any agreement by going to Roshar with Cultivation. Maybe he simply believed that he and Cultivation worked together and did not interfere with one another.)

Which brings us back to how making Wit a contractual liaison of Honor affords him protection. It's because it makes him a representative or agent of Dalinar, and by extension, Honor. And Wit says that will protect him from direct attacks from Odium. This suggests that the Shards' agreement not to interfere with one another extends to representatives or agents of the Shards. If a Shard directly attacks such a representative, they violate the non-interference pact and open themselves up to an attack from the other Shards.

It's worth noting here, that after Jasnah asks Wit who he really is, Wit responds that he's someone who turned down the offer of a Shard and who is therefore "not bound." There's at least a hint in RoW that the reason Rayse hates Wit so much is because Wit is not subject to the non-interference pact and has been going around messing with Rayse's plans over the years:

Quote

“Cephandrius,” Odium spat. “Ever the rat. No matter where I go, there he is, scratching in the wall. Burrowing into my strongholds. He could have been a god, yet he insists on living in the dirt.”

The flip side of Wit not being associated with a Shard, however, would be that he would not be covered by the protections of the non-interference pact. That would explain why Wit has always been so cautious to hide from Shards. By virtue of the line added to the contract, however, Wit now gains the protection. (with this protection in place, maybe in MB era 2 Wit will accede to Harmony's request that he come out of the shadows)

Wit seems to have explained to Dalinar that he falls under the protection of the pact. Here's Dalinar thinking to himself to stay calm when Rayse gets mad during their contract negotiations in RoW 112:

Quote

A flare of heat washed over him from behind. Dalinar spun, finding Odium glowing with a bright red-gold light, his eyes wide, his teeth clenched.

Stand firm, Dalinar thought to himself. Wit says he can’t hurt you. Not without breaking his word … not without inviting his own death…

Wit hadn’t included that last part.

That last line there is interesting. It seems Wit had explained to Dalinar that Rayse couldn't attack him. But Wit didn't explain the part about it possibly leading to Rayse's death. Dalinar seems to have figured that out from the earlier part of his conversation with Rayse where he asked what would happen if Rayse broke their contract:

Quote

“I cannot break my word,” Odium said, the heat increasing. “I basically am incapable of it.”

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word?”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed on me – chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals – would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul – which would let Cultivation kill me.”

I'm also intrigued here by the line about Honor doing something to prevent Odium from using his powers on most individuals. The Stormfather told us in OB that Honor loved humankind and died defending them. And back in WoR 82, the Stormfather said this:

Quote

I am the one left behind. I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I … I fled. To continue as I always have. The piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel.

I think that line about the winds men must feel could mean that the Stormfather has to bring the highstorms regularly to keep reminding men of Honor; maybe even to touch a part of them that is attuned to Honor.

I've been kicking around a theory that Honor somehow delegated down and dispersed to the humans of Roshar, collectively, the power to release Odium from his bonds, thereby making humans representatives of Honor whom Odium could not then directly attack. Maybe this collective delegation is why Unity is so important. And maybe this is what all of the talk about Honor living on in the hearts of men is about, and why Wit seems to believe that the real contest will be about the hearts of men and women. Here's he and Jasnah again in RoW 99:

Quote

But look, Jasnah, Rayse – Odium – is  someone we can defeat. If he has one great failing it’s that he thinks he’s smarter than he is. He tried exceptionally hard to make Dalinar into his champion. Why? Because he doesn’t merely want to win, he wants to win in a way that says something. To everyone watching.”

“He was so certain he could turn the Blackthorn that he bet almost everything on that singular gamble. Now he must be scared. While he pretends he has a dozen other plans, he’s scrambling to locate a champion who can legitimately win. Because he knows – same as I’m telling you – that the contest won’t only be about who can stab the hardest with their spear.”

“What will it be about then?”

“Same thing it’s always about, Jasnah,” Wit said. “The hearts of men and women. Do you trust the hearts of those who fight on your side?”

I think this idea also fits in with how Odium uses the Unmade, as a way to try to corrupt the hearts of men. He can't attack people directly, so he sends the Unmade to sow discord and division and drive Honor out of the hearts of men. This WoB seems to be more about how Odium wasn't involved in the creation of the humans on Roshar, and therefore can't exploit the cracks in their souls the same way Ruin could on Scadrial where he had a hand in creating the humans. But it also suggests that Odium uses the Unmade to try to accomplish the same types of things. He's not attacking, just twisting their motivations and desires:

Quote

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678 (paraphrased)

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

It's also interesting to note here that common-form Singers appear to have a natural defense against having cracks in their soul exploited. Presumably this is because the spren that they bond in order to take on their forms fill in those cracks.

At any rate, this makes me think that the Unmade were crafted specifically for the purpose of corrupting the hearts of men. As we know, Odium simply destroying or subjugating the humans of Roshar will not release him from his bonds. If Honor did, as I've theorized, disperse the authority to free Odium to the humans of Roshar, then it makes sense that Odium would try to drive as many people as possible to turn away from Honor, and thereby remove the protections afforded by being representatives of Honor.

This brings me to one more reference to the protections afforded to most humans on Roshar. It appears in the last Taravangian Interlude (I-12) before the climax of the book. Sja-Anat has come to speak with Taravangian and offered to assist him in drawing Odium's attention, and then closes with this warning:

Quote

Good luck, human, when he does come. You are not protected from him as many on this world are. You have made deals that exempt you from such safety.

What if the purpose of the Unmade is to drive as many humans as possible to make choices or deals that exempt them from the protection of being representatives of Honor? Maybe if Odium can pull enough of them (it would have to be a lot, I think) outside of that protection and then exert direct influence on them he can convince them to release him?

I'm interested as always to hear others' thoughts.

[Edit]

I had two additional thoughts to add.

One is about how pleased Odium was with the size of the coalition that Dalinar had gathered for the Battle of Thaylen Field, and correspondingly how devastated he was when Dalinar didn't turn to Odium. If Odium was trying to turn as many hearts of men against Honor as possible, imagine the effect of Dalinar putting together this grand coalition in the name of Honor and Unity, and then turning and agreeing to be Odium's champion. Oof. That's like a kill shot.

The second concerns Ruin and Preservation. If the pact the Shards made was about not interfering with one another, it was probably smart of them to make what seemed like a formal agreement outlining how they were going to cooperate to create Scadrial. Might have saved them from an accusation that they violated the pact.

Edited April 13, 2021 by mdross81

[Saal]

Wow, very interesting theory!

I don't have anything to add at this time other than to say that you've piqued my interest and I will be following this thread.

[Andy92]

I like this theory. It’s been a theme of the book series so far. Reminds me of another one of Wit’s conversations with Jasnah in the WoR epilogue.

Quote

You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess. Inside the hearts of men. 

It’ll be interesting to see if Honor did something like you’re suggesting as contractual protection or if it’s just a thematic part of the series, but I like the theory. 

[+mdross81 he/him]

22 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I like this theory. It’s been a theme of the book series so far. Reminds me of another one of Wit’s conversations with Jasnah in the WoR epilogue.

It’ll be interesting to see if Honor did something like you’re suggesting as contractual protection or if it’s just a thematic part of the series, but I like the theory. 

Thanks!

And yeah, "hearts of men" certainly has been a prominent theme. Enough so that I did a whole post on it a little while back.

I probably overstated the cosmere-wide significance of the hearts of men in that post, but I was excited about the idea at the time.

[Andy92]

Just to have some fun with the theory and roll with it, I’ve always been a fan of the theories that there’s something more to the Kaladin and Child of Tanavast references. Assuming your theory is true, it’s possible Kaladin has become a larger Splinter of Honor due to the way he’s lived his life. I think something like that would be cool because it wouldn’t mean Kaladin is special because he has the same bloodline as Tanavast himself or someone like Nohadon, but it would also set Kaladin apart a bit and explain some of the things he’s done, like move the wind itself during a storm. 

[+mdross81 he/him]

1 hour ago, Andy92 said:

I’ve always been a fan of the theories that there’s something more to the Kaladin and Child of Tanavast references. Assuming your theory is true, it’s possible Kaladin has become a larger Splinter of Honor due to the way he’s lived his life. I think something like that would be cool because it wouldn’t mean Kaladin is special because he has the same bloodline as Tanavast himself or someone like Nohadon, but it would also set Kaladin apart a bit and explain some of the things he’s done, like move the wind itself during a storm. 

I like it. And there is this bit from OB when Kal gets to Hearthstone:

Quote

Syl walked up to him in the air “They’re like I remember them.”

“Remember them?” Kaladin whispered. “Syl, you never knew me when I lived here.”

“That’s true,” she said.

“So how can you remember them?” Kaladin said, frowning.

“Because I do,” Syl said, flitting around him. “Everyone is connected, Kaladin. Everything is connected. I didn’t know you then, but the winds did, and I am of the winds.”

“You’re honorspren.”

“The winds are of Honor,” she said, laughing as if he’d said something ridiculous. “We are kindred blood.”

Could be why the winds and Syl were drawn to him.

[Andy92]

And it also ties back into The Way of Kings when they’re watching Dalinar trapped on the plateau at The Tower. 

Quote

Syl still stood beside him, facing eastward. It made his very soul twist in knots to see that look of despair on her face. “Are windspren attracted to wind,” she asked softly, “or do they make it?”

“I don’t know,” Kaladin said. “Does it matter?”

“Perhaps not. You see, I’ve remembered what kind of spren I am.”

“Is this the time for it, Syl?”

“I bind things, Kaladin,” she said, turning and meeting his eyes. “I am honorspren. Spirit of oaths. Of promises. And of nobility.”

That’s a question that comes up in the first book from Syl, are spren attracted to things or are spren the ones who create things? 

To me the answer always seemed to be that spren were attracted to things. Cryptics are attracted to Shallan because she lies, but Shallan is the one creating the lies. Honorspren are attracted to honor, and Kaladin lived in such an honorable way that he attracted Syl. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Why would he need to focus so hard on getting Dalinar to release him if any human would do?

[+mdross81 he/him]

15 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Why would he need to focus so hard on getting Dalinar to release him if any human would do?

Because Dalinar represents such a large swathe of people. The idea isn’t that just any human has the authority, but that it’s held collectively by mankind. It would need to be someone with enough authority to speak for a significant enough portion of humans.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

53 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Because Dalinar represents such a large swathe of people. The idea isn’t that just any human has the authority, but that it’s held collectively by mankind. It would need to be someone with enough authority to speak for a significant enough portion of humans.

At this point Dalinar no longer speaks for even a single full nation, only the Radiants (and even then his grasp is tenuous over some of the orders). And at the time Odium started meeting with him, he officially spoke for one highprincedom. He has never himself held any official authority to speak for any significant (on a planetwide scale) number of people. Why not go after the king of Jah Keved, or the prime of Azir, or even Elhokar? They all speak for a far larger group than Dalinar.

[+mdross81 he/him]

46 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

At this point Dalinar no longer speaks for even a single full nation, only the Radiants (and even then his grasp is tenuous over some of the orders). And at the time Odium started meeting with him, he officially spoke for one highprincedom. He has never himself held any official authority to speak for any significant (on a planetwide scale) number of people. Why not go after the king of Jah Keved, or the prime of Azir, or even Elhokar? They all speak for a far larger group than Dalinar.

As a technical matter you’re absolutely right, but Dalinar is undoubtedly the figurehead leader of the human coalition opposing Odium. And Dalinar holds the largest portion of Honor’s power. Same reason Odium went after Kaladin next, because he’s extra-aligned with Honor.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

As a technical matter you’re absolutely right, but Dalinar is undoubtedly the figurehead leader of the human coalition opposing Odium.

Sure, but that doesn't mean he actually speaks for them on the topic of freeing Odium. I would guess most of the rest of the coalition would very strenuously disagree with such an idea in most cases, and all his power would fall apart pretty quickly.

3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

And Dalinar holds the largest portion of Honor’s power.

Yes, but if all of humanity is bearing the power, then Dalinar shouldn't be able to just release Odium alone, no?

(This also ignores the fact Cultivation is involved in the binding too.)

[+mdross81 he/him]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean he actually speaks for them on the topic of freeing Odium. I would guess most of the rest of the coalition would very strenuously disagree with such an idea in most cases, and all his power would fall apart pretty quickly.

Yes, but if all of humanity is bearing the power, then Dalinar shouldn't be able to just release Odium alone, no?

(This also ignores the fact Cultivation is involved in the binding too.)

All valid points.

I suppose I could try to thread the needle and say that when Odium said he knew that Dalinar would release him, he meant it more tangentially. That by turning to Odium it would be such a symbolic defeat and so devastating to morale that it would drive Honor out of the hearts of enough men (coupled with the countries that had joined Odium willingly) that it would make it possible for Odium to break free.

But that’s starting to be a somewhat tortured defense of my theory and still doesn’t address what Cultivation’s role might be.

Sure wish we knew more about how Honor and Cultivation’s power seals Odium in the Rosharan system.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 hours ago, mdross81 said:

and still doesn’t address what Cultivation’s role might be.

Sure wish we knew more about how Honor and Cultivation’s power seals Odium in the Rosharan system.

Yeah.... I've always been confused on why Dalinar releasing Odium would be enough, when Cultivation is also binding him. But then I remembered this line:

Quote

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION.

And only one Herald needs to break... The Stormfather isn't just the largest piece of Honor. He's also Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, the remnant of Tanavast's mind and soul. So perhaps it's not the power that's directly relevant at all, but rather the fact that Dalinar, via his starting to merge with the Stormfather due to the Nahel bond, can do the equivalent of a Herald bending their Oath, releasing Tanavast's hold on Rayse's mind (sort of similarly to how Leras's mind trapped Ati's, until the Well's power was given up and the prison lifted).

It also helps explain to me how Rayse could kill Tanavast, a Vessel of a Shard of Adonalsium, yet killing the Stormfather was too risky and would open him up to an attack from Kora. If Tanavast was going full Leras-mode, then Rayse might've been able to slowly tear him down until he was weak enough for a finishing blow, with Tanavast's own actions in making the prison leaving him vulnerable to this.

Here's how the Oathpact is described:

Quote

Nale scratched at his head, and Dalinar saw a skeletal figure overlapping him. Like the echo of light that followed Szeth, only worn, dim. Dalinar stepped forward, walking among his stunned bodyguards, noting eight lines of light extending from Nale into the distance.

“I see the Oathpact, I think,” Dalinar said. “The thing that bound them together and made them capable of holding the enemy in Damnation.”

A cage, forged of their spirits, the Stormfather said in his mind. It was broken. Even before Jezrien’s death, they shattered it by what they did long ago.

Here's how Ati's prison is described:

HoA 55 epigraph:

Quote

By sacrificing most of his consciousness, Preservation created Ruin's prison, breaking their deal and trying to keep Ruin from destroying what they had created. This event left their powers again nearly balanced—Ruin imprisoned, only a trace of himself capable of leaking out. Preservation reduced to a mere wisp of what he once was, barely capable of thought and action.

HoA 55 annotation:

Quote

Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 19, 2010)

HoA 58 epigraph:

Quote

Once you begin to understand these things, you can see how Ruin was trapped even though Preservation's mind was gone, expended to create the prison. Though Preservation's consciousness was mostly destroyed, his spirit and body were still in force. And, as an opposite force of Ruin, these could still prevent Ruin from destroying.

By sharing the burden with Kora, Tanavast was probably able to last in a better state than Leras for a while, but in the end, the toll on his mind drove him Intent-mad, from what the Stormfather says:

Quote

He did. Then, I didn’t understand why, but now I do. Odium lies when he claims to have sole ownership of passion. The Stormfather paused. I remember … at the end … Honor was more obsessed with oaths. There were times when the oath itself was more important than the meaning behind it. But he was not a passionless monster. He loved humankind. He died defending you.

This reminds me strongly of Leras by the time of Secret History.

(I plan to do a deeper dive for info and write up a neater post eventually, but here's my current thoughts.)

[+mdross81 he/him]

48 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This reminds me strongly of Leras by the time of Secret History.

(I plan to do a deeper dive for info and write up a neater post eventually, but here's my current thoughts.)

I like the theory and look forward to your post.

The Tanavast from the "In the Top Room" vision has always reminded me a lot of Leras in Secret History. But I guess he must have still been alive when he crafted the visions?

I've always wondered how to reconcile him seeming sane in the visions with what the Stormfather said about him raving at the end. I suppose he could have crafted the visions just before taking an action that he knew would cause him to go mad. Or maybe he'd been losing his mind for a while, but Kora was able to give him a brief period of sanity in which to craft them?

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:46 AM, mdross81 said:

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678 (paraphrased)

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

"many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them"

could this have to do with Ba-Ado-Mishram?  Maybe her imprisonment created a 'hole' in all spren?

[+mdross81 he/him]

2 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

"many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them"

could this have to do with Ba-Ado-Mishram?  Maybe her imprisonment created a 'hole' in all spren?

Wow. I hadn’t considered that interpretation. I had just figured he was referring to Voidspren. But you could totally be right.

[mathiau he/him]

On 16/04/2021 at 1:37 AM, mdross81 said:

Because Dalinar represents such a large swathe of people. The idea isn’t that just any human has the authority, but that it’s held collectively by mankind. It would need to be someone with enough authority to speak for a significant enough portion of humans.

Odium said it was because he was a Boundsmith in Oathbringer

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 4/18/2021 at 1:01 PM, mdross81 said:

Wow. I hadn’t considered that interpretation. I had just figured he was referring to Voidspren. But you could totally be right.

There is a connection somewhere in here...

 

Brandon's description of El in RoW made it seem as though he has experience with hemalurgy.  Hemalurgy creates these "holes" in beings' spirit webs that allows them to be influenced by other powerful beings.  El might have played a major role during the False Desolation, as did Ba-Ado-Mishram.  Somehow, some way this is all connected.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Ba-Ado-Fisherman

[ElMonoEstupendo]

22 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

There is a connection somewhere in here...

 

Brandon's description of El in RoW made it seem as though he has experience with hemalurgy.  Hemalurgy creates these "holes" in beings' spirit webs that allows them to be influenced by other powerful beings.  El might have played a major role during the False Desolation, as did Ba-Ado-Mishram.  Somehow, some way this is all connected.

I think I'm right that the Fused didn't return during the False Desolation. If anyone spiked BAM, it would have been Melishi or one of the Heralds.

El's metal carapace replacements definitely reek of Hemalurgy or possibly Feruchemy. His other quirks - lack of Rhythms and intense interest in humanity - seem to me to indicate that he's either stolen or had stolen from him some amount of Connection and Identity, or is storing/accessing it.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I think I'm right that the Fused didn't return during the False Desolation. If anyone spiked BAM, it would have been Melishi or one of the Heralds.

El's metal carapace replacements definitely reek of Hemalurgy or possibly Feruchemy. His other quirks - lack of Rhythms and intense interest in humanity - seem to me to indicate that he's either stolen or had stolen from him some amount of Connection and Identity, or is storing/accessing it.

Yeah, I think El, back when he was Vyre, experimented with other forms of Investiture in order to gain more power.  I'm guessing this is something Rayse was not happy about, therefore he stripped away Vyre's rhythms and gave him the name El.  

 

As far as the Fused during the False Desolation, I'm not sure we can rule out the possibility of SOME of them being there.  Ulim is shown to be active on Roshar before and during Gavilar's feast, which was years before the Everstorm reached Roshar.  Clearly there was a way for beings on Braize to travel to Roshar, and I think this will play a major role in the Ghostblood plot.  Ulim shouldn't have been able to leave Braize because of his Connection to the world, yet he did (inside of a gemstone).  This would be very interesting to Kelsier, I think.  Maybe cognitive shadows can be trapped inside of gemstones and carried to any world that they wouldn't normally be able to exist on?

[Eternal Khol he/him]

7 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I'm not sure we can rule out the possibility of SOME of them being there.  Ulim is shown to be active on Roshar before and during Gavilar's feast, which was years before the Everstorm reached Roshar.

Lesser beings like Ulim were capable, yes. I feel like it was stated somewhere that only the some of the weaker voidspren like ulim could get through, but stronger beings couldnt.

something about the Oathpact being a cage and some of the voidspren are small enough to fit through the bars or something like that. I could be trippin though

 

10 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

  Ulim shouldn't have been able to leave Braize because of his Connection to the world, yet he did

Ulim(and others) were always capable of travel between Roshar and Braize. It wasnt his Connection to the planet that held him back, It was the Oathpact.

 any invested being in the Rosharan system can travel betweeen any of the 3 planets. Radiants and their spren could go to Ashyn or Braize if they wanted. It only makes sense that voidspren would be capable of the same thing. 

Raboniel(while not technically a spren) even states "my soul is bound to the planet you call braize" while she is on Roshar.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Maybe cognitive shadows can be trapped inside of gemstones and carried to any world that they wouldn't normally be able to exist on?

Maybe after taking some extra steps...
 Stormlight(investiture) isnt able to get offworld in a gemstone, so Cogntive shadows shouldnt be able to either. Cogntive Shadows are made up of investiture that still has all those same ties/Connections to the land and what not.

[+mdross81 he/him]

23 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

As far as the Fused during the False Desolation, I'm not sure we can rule out the possibility of SOME of them being there.  Ulim is shown to be active on Roshar before and during Gavilar's feast, which was years before the Everstorm reached Roshar.  Clearly there was a way for beings on Braize to travel to Roshar, and I think this will play a major role in the Ghostblood plot.  Ulim shouldn't have been able to leave Braize because of his Connection to the world, yet he did (inside of a gemstone).  This would be very interesting to Kelsier, I think.  Maybe cognitive shadows can be trapped inside of gemstones and carried to any world that they wouldn't normally be able to exist on?

Couple of points on this. Regarding Ulim, he was able to escape into the barrier storm blocking the way to Braize in the cognitive realm, a portion of which was later broken off and would become the Everstorm. That barrier storm corresponds with a location in the southern seas of Roshar in the physcial realm. I'm pretty sure that, as we see happen later with the stormspren, Ulim hitched a ride on some lightning when a highstorm passed by the location of that barrier storm, and he was caught by Axindweth or her associates with a gem. I base this on how later on Venli is able to collect stormspren after Odium has moved the Everstorm through the cognitive realm to a location corresponding with the shattered plains. She notes that the stormspren come through the lightning during highstorms but have to be captured in a gem or they get pulled back to the cognitive realm.

And regarding moving a cognitive shadow in a gem, I think Mraize pretty much rules this out in his discussion with Shallan in RoW 13:

Quote

"The catch?" she asked, holding up the broam. "The problem?"

"This power is something we call Investiture," Mraize said. "Investiture manifests in many forms, tied to many places and many different gods. It is bound to a specific land - making it very difficult to transport. It resists. Try to carry this too far, and you'd find it increasingly difficult to move, as it would become increasingly heavy."