Navani Foreshadowing

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

It wasn't even that hard of a choice it wasn't "work for me or die" it was "work for me and maybe you can outsmart me" that's not a hard choice.

Problem is that Navani's other option was to be effectively imprisoned, with no way to affect situation at all. In such situation I think taking a gamble makes sense, after all I would assume that a thousands of years old being would know more than I do so I could get more from the interactions than they could.

However, as it seems your position on Bondsmiths in general is that due to their extreme powers after unchaining, they should work in very risk averse manner and should be very conservative in their use of power, I see your point. I do not agree with it, but I see it.

3 hours ago, Infinitysliver said:

1. The Sibling would have been an Unmade

2. The Tower would have been lost,therefore there would be no home base for the Radiants,the coalition

3.Odium would have been in a wayyyy better spot for negotaiting

4..The morale for the entire team would have sunk

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's one casualty in war, that is no reason to help the enemy

An unfortunate setback

If the terms are unacceptable you stall until they come back into your favor.

A miniscule cost.

I think here you are downplaying the risks quite a bit, point by point

1. Even the mindless Unmade are extremely effective area-of-denial weapons, not to mention great for destabilizing population centres (Kholinar). Single hyphen Unmade was able to 'Scourge Aimia' which rendered it uninhabitable. Seeing that Sibling is most likely already greater in power than most Unmade, even if the process diminished him the enemy would get a terrifying new weapon to play with, not to mention all the historical/mechanical knowledge Sibling possess. In addition, oathgates' spren consider Sibling their parent, so Sibling might have some sway over them.
2. Loss of Tower would be devastating, they would lose all the people inside (which is a lot of families of their soldiers, quite hard on morale). They would lose their central staging area they are using for moving troops around, they would lose all notes and written down information they had there. And it would give enemy nearly unassailable fortress, the suppressor fabrials were not working at full power throughout the book, who knows what corrupted Sibling could do with them. If Fused mounted serious defence I do not think coalition forces with only two Radiants on 4th oath could take it back.
   1. Addendum, we have never seen Coalition forces use Oathgates to move between cities directly If I recall correctly, so there might be some limitation still imposed. If true, than losing Urithiru in effect dissolves the Coalition, because they have no way to move forces to bolster one another. However on this point I am not sure.
3. Problem is the war was already not going too great for Coalition even before they would have lost Urithiru. If other Coalition members learned Dalinar turned down the offer to end the war I am not sure they would be too happy with him, remember it is mostly Alethi who lost territory, other Coalition members did not. Offer Odium makes effectively turns it into a war of conquest, not extermination.
4. Morale of troops is important, just look at what Odium was able to do with unhappy troops in Oathbringer.

 

 

[Infinity Sliver]

38 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I would simply like to remind both sides to calm down and tone down the snark just a tad. You're doing great.

 

And for my position, I must admit, the pro-Navani group has made some very good arguments (Along with some bad ones), and my position is not changed... yet.

Because of this conversation, I am reevaluating that scene. My position has not yet changed, but it is opened to being changed. So congratulations, you have done something very impressive, and that's to get me to re-analyze my position. (Granted, a lot of it was me thinking of counters to my own arguments because I have a weird duality way of thinking and like seeing every side, but there were points made by others that helped sway it, and you guys should be proud of making those points.)

This is good,I'll admit I've been snarky but I dont think I've been very good at describing what I would like to fully describe hahaha

[Quick Ben he/him]

Every time i come back to this thread, there is 3 pages plus of posts to go through so sorry if do not directly reply to people as others have, and considering there points would be similiar to my own  replying would be slightly redundant.

As ye are aware i am in the camp of "Navani not being worthy" nothing anyone has said would sway be from that point.

But let me ask the "the Navani is worthy camp" this: If Navani had not bonded the Sibling, would ye be here arguing why it should of been her ? Above say Rlain ? Or indeed no one ?

Alot of people are saying Navani did the best she could in a bad situation in the tower. I disagree with this. Mainly because she didnt have to do anything Rabional wanted, she could of kept the scholars doing nothing, she could of kept making fabrials as weapons as failed experiments etc 

Fact is she wasnt intimated into helping Rabional, she wasnt outsmarted and tricked by Rabional, she literally was gullible to the point i found it hard to believe and given she is has been dispicted as an intelligent woman up to RoW found it a bit out of character.

Navani willingly jumps into the research for anti light etc because she sees it as "an opportunity to see whats shes capable of, when she is free to do "scholarship"" she has no thoughts of what happens if she is successful, she has no thoughts on wider implications of finding "anti light" in fact she doesn't think about anything except "being free to do it"

Considering how irresponsible that is, she compounds it by writing it all down, once it was wrote down was inevitable what would happen, but she didnt care or decided to not see. Both are as bad as eachother.

Now i realise, BS needed something to kinda be a leveller for how super powered radiants are and the fact how they are nearly unkillable, which is fine, makes sense, but Navani and her illogical actions was basically relegated to a plot device for this imo, 

This is what led to her being so gullible/unintelligent, lacking forsight etc etc, but those points are what make her unworthy as well, she never once comtemplates should i do this? 

As for the Sibling, she dislikes Navani because she captures spren, how does she feel now that Navani created a way to kill them ? Must be assumed the sibling knows, so adds to the Sibling saying "you are not worthy"

Unless the Sibling was about to die i don't think she ever bonds Navani.

Navani has plenty of leadership skills, she can hold things together even, for short periods of time, but being a unifier is about bringing people/countries together who normally wouldnt only for something or someone. Being a patron for scholars isn't doing this, as anyone with the means and interest could do it.  

Let me also say, while people point out others are not held to similar standards, i also don't think Dalinar is worthy, simple because he wasn't and wouldnt be only for Cultivation, thus he shouldnt be considered worthy on his own merit in my opinion.

Navani might grow into being worthy, and i am open to that, just don't think she was at end of RoW, and i don't think the Sibling bonded her on her own merit, She did so to survive.

[Jenet]

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

But let me ask the "the Navani is worthy camp" this: If Navani had not bonded the Sibling, would ye be here arguing why it should of been her ? Above say Rlain ? Or indeed no one ?

I have seen Navani as the obvious candidate for the sibling since I realized there was a Sibling. And Rlain as the Sibling Bondsmith? Why? Is there a specific reason for using him as an example, or did you just pick a person? I agree that one of the bondsmiths should certainly be a singer, but Rlain is a rather shy and reserved man, with no demonstrated leadership experience or talents, and I found his ending up as a truthwatcher very logical and worthy.  Also the Nightwatcher bondsmith would be more logical for a singer, as I feel they have a closeness to Cultivation that the humans don't have.

The only argument for choosing Rlain as a bondsmith is that he knows both human and singer culture better than most. But his experience is coming from being a slave. True, he may learn, as all the radiants must, but I fail to see why he is an obviously better candidate than Navani, who has specialized her whole life in many of the topics that are required of a Bondsmith as I see it.

I addition, after seeing what happened with Navani and Raboniel, I will add a very important part of being a leader at war: You need to be brave. And not only a little intrepid. The only way the coalition could get hold of the knowledge that Navani managed to learn was to befriend Raboniel. And Navani did it while being a prisoner in isolation. I hope and believe that Navani's skill and knowledge will be crucial for the future warfare for the coalition, and that she will be able to construct far more dangerous weapons than the one she had to give away to Raboniel's team. 

According to Raboniel, Navani's understanding and knowledge is above her own, and Raboniel was the best scientist that the singers had. So despite the slip with the notes, Navani probably has captured some essential information and understanding, and I think she knows it, but she is too modest to talk too much about it yet. And we can gruess that the singers have not got the resources to understand what Navani just did, and then construct new weapons from it.

In order to really gain something, especially in dangerous situatons, you need to be brave enough to just grab for it and to hell with the consequences. Because the consequence of doing nothing is worse. You must take the chance when it occurs.

Being brave and intrepid in danger does not mean that you will be careless strategically. Navani has proven to be careful and wise in strategic situations. Getting out of a desperate situation and saving your city, your spren, your people, and steal with you crucial pieces of knowledge of Rosharan physics is an impressive feat, and for me, the price she had to pay was bearable. She will be able to make way more powerful weapons with what she now knows.

But that remains to be seen, Sanderson is the master of the puppets here. This is just my explanation of why I still root for Navani.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Jenet said:

But did you really expect Sanderson to start book five without some seriously badass challenges?

Well he's done it for  three books now and I still don't feel like any of the characters are in danger so, yes.

5 hours ago, Jenet said:

For me, these books are about facing impossible problems with awesome, but flawed characters. Type: you find yourself facing the end of the world, and you are depressed and revengeful, or you are half crazy from being tricked into killing half the world's monarchs and their families, and you are trusted with a freakishly dangerous magical sword, and you are in doubt who you should pledge allegiance to, but for the time being, it's Dalinar Kholin. Or you are basically a killing machine that was used for killing anyone that your brother wanted you to kill, but you ended up killing your wife, got PTSD, drank yourself out of your wits, was drunk when your brother was killed, almost killed your spren because you were scared your were about to kill everyone around you.

I've enjoyed watching large quantities of faceless minions getting slaughtered by power they couldn't possibly underrstand before a real challange comes out. Even if the last one is often over hypped.

5 hours ago, Jenet said:

Get the picture? This story is not about nitpicking at how people should have done things differently, had they only been wiser or had more restraint. It's about desperate situations, ordinary people with exeptional skills and difficult flaws. It's a huge, complex weave made of impossible challenges and people who see opportunities, not faults.

I've always liked static characters more.

5 hours ago, Jenet said:

And every time our gang solves impossible problems, there must be created something new and even more terrible, so that they can have something to challenge their even more awesome magical forces that they aquired while fighting.

If there isn't any risk to the characters than the stakes don't matter.

5 hours ago, Jenet said:

We need this to get a good story in the next book. And I, for one, am very happy that Sanderson chose this way to make it exciting. I find it believable and likeable.

I think it would make a better story to remove the plot armor.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Jenet said:

According to Raboniel, Navani's understanding and knowledge is above her own, and Raboniel was the best scientist that the singers had. So despite the slip with the notes, Navani probably has captured some essential information and understanding, and I think she knows it, but she is too modest to talk too much about it yet. And we can gruess that the singers have not got the resources to understand what Navani just did, and then construct new weapons from it.

El

[+mdross81 he/him]

2 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Navani willingly jumps into the research for anti light etc because she sees it as "an opportunity to see whats shes capable of, when she is free to do "scholarship"" she has no thoughts of what happens if she is successful, she has no thoughts on wider implications of finding "anti light" in fact she doesn't think about anything except "being free to do it

This is simply not true that she only thinks about being free to pursue scholarship. From chapter 49:

Quote

Navani cocked an eyebrow at that, considering that the Sibling had needed to beg for her help. She held her tongue. How to best use this advantage? What was the path to freedom?

Navani liked to think that she could see patterns, that she could make order from chaos. There was a way out of this mess. She had to believe that.

Treat it like any other problem, Navani thought to herself. Approach it systematically, breaking it down into manageable pieces.

Last night, she’d decided on a few general courses of action. First, she had to maintain the ground she’d already obtained. That meant making certain the Sibling’s shield remained in place.

Second, she had to get word to Dalinar and those on the outside, apprising them of what had happened.

Third, Navani needed to figure out what the enemy had done to negate Radiant powers. According to the Sibling, it involved a corruption of ancient tower protections. Navani needed to deactivate it.

Finally, she needed to turn that power upon the invaders. Barring that, she needed to use the awakened Radiants to mount a counterattack.

Standing here, trapped in the basement and constantly watched, those seemed impossible tasks. But her scholars had made a ship fly. She could do this, with their help.

I’m sure I can find more examples as well. And I don’t view it as problematic that she does think about being free to perform scholarship. It’s built into her character that she’s always wanted to and been capable of doing more, but couldn’t because she was always doing her duty by attending to more mundane, but still important, tasks that otherwise wouldn’t get done. It doesn’t come across to me that she lets that sense of freedom overwhelm other considerations about her situation. But I can see where for others it might because I think Brandon returned to that idea a lot to hammer on that theme with Navani.

On a personal note, for anyone like me who is in the role of default parent - the parent (usually, but not always, the mom) the kids automatically come to and the one who thinks about and attends to the things that need to get done for a family but aren’t really that interesting or fulfilling - Navani’s thoughts about freedom to pursue her scholarship, even if under less than ideal circumstances, were very relatable.

I grant that she maybe came off as uncharacteristically gullible, but that’s to us readers who know a lot more than she does. It’s not as though Navani has spent a lot of time dealing with a Bondsmith tower spren or an ancient Fused scholar before. It’s not surprising that she would make some mistakes.

[Bejarden he/him]

13 hours ago, mdross81 said:

grant that she maybe came off as uncharacteristically gullible, but that’s to us readers who know a lot more than she does. It’s not as though Navani has spent a lot of time dealing with a Bondsmith tower spren or an ancient Fused scholar before. It’s not surprising that she would make some mistakes.

Wow a lot happened while I was gone.

I’ll just respond to this part:

She knows Raboniel is lying to her, and she still works with her.

And before you quoted chapter 49 but you completely left out the part where she locks herself away from her scholars for a few days to do science. 
She was irresponsible and it resulted in death and destruction that could have been avoided.

I have not seen an argument that proves she has exceptional worthiness unlike anyone else on Roshar which makes her worthy.

She an organizer that dabbles in Fabrial Science.

She becomes a leader, does an admirable job, and makes some mistakes.

While this doesn’t take away from her character it also doesn’t give her any sort of worthiness.

On another note: It is entirely possible that Dalinar isn’t worth either. We know that Bondsmiths would train for years for a slight chance of being chosen. They were the best if the best, the cream of the crop. 
And now the spren are desperate and are taking what they can get.

And while this does give Navani powers it doesn’t mean she’s worthy of it.

[The Technovore he/him]

Are we still on "Does Navani get credit for anti-light?"

Because funnily enough this exact argument comes up in the books. Hoid at the end of WoK talked about what humans value most. Remember? He talked about how two scholars could be independently working on the same thing, but if one scholar publishes first, and then the second scholar publishes, everyone looks at the second scholar like they didn't achieve anything. If Navani didn't discover something new, if someone else on Roshar holds this power, does it really make her achievement any less? Everyone she ever talked to--including the millennia-old scientist--thought it was impossible. She used only the tools she had and no outside knowledge to create both Warlight and Anti-Light. Navani had no way of knowing if either was possible. People told her it wasn't. She found that it was.

If this was a marathon, Navani would've come second, or fifth, or fortieth. Does that really matter? She ran the entire marathon on her own two feet without even knowing whether there was a finish line. Her (fictional because we're arguing about book characters lol) accomplishment is her own and should not be discredited. 

 

EDIT: I think we're conflating worthiness with deserving: Do any of the Kholins deserve to be Radiants? Renarin and Adolin maybe, but their family has a long history of atrocities. Do they deserve this power? No. In fact they probably deserve a long long prison sentence. No one deserves anything. Every one has hurt others. Every one has been cruel at least once, perhaps deliberately. But seeing as how we do get mercy, we do get forgiveness, we do have these things that we do not deserve, then we can make good use of them. We can become worthy to have them.

The Kholins did not deserve their powers. But they've grown into their powers. They've used their powers to help, to save, to unite. They are not deserving, but they are worthy.

Edited April 11, 2021 by The Technovore

[Bejarden he/him]

2 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Navani had no way of knowing if either was possible. People told her it wasn't. She found that it was.

She had a sphere of A-Light before. And crafted  hypothesis around it. And she got it right first try with destructive interference 

 

2 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Because funnily enough this exact argument comes up in the books. Hoid at the end of WoK talked about what humans value most. Remember? He talked about how two scholars could be independently working on the same thing, but if one scholar publishes first, and then the second scholar publishes, everyone looks at the second scholar like they didn't achieve anything.

I identify as a human, and so this is true.

Yah in a perfect world we would credit Navani with the creation but in reality (or however close to reality the Cosmere is in ) it’s first gets credit.

Now all Navani gets credit for is the mass production. 

4 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Are we still on "Does Navani get credit for anti-light?"

I have no clue. 

[+mdross81 he/him]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

On another note: It is entirely possible that Dalinar isn’t worth either. We know that Bondsmiths would train for years for a slight chance of being chosen. They were the best if the best, the cream of the crop. 

You say that you don’t necessarily think that Dalinar is worthy either. But here’s the difference. I don’t recall a whole lot of commentary making the argument that Dalinar was unworthy to bond the Stormfather after WoR. 

Whereas, now with Navani, there seems to be a die hard contingent dedicated to proving her lack of worthiness. And it doesn’t make sense to me.

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She was irresponsible and it resulted in death and destruction that could have been avoided.

And she also prevented other death and destruction that would have occurred had she not acted.

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She an organizer that dabbles in Fabrial Science.

This just doesn’t hold up. Maybe she’s not involved in the manufacturing process of fabrials, but I don’t think at this point anyone can question her mastery of the technology of fabrials and her understanding of how they work. Can we please put to bed this idea that she’s just a dilettante patron of fabrial science?

Edited April 11, 2021 by mdross81

[Frustration]

54 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Because funnily enough this exact argument comes up in the books. Hoid at the end of WoK talked about what humans value most. Remember? He talked about how two scholars could be independently working on the same thing, but if one scholar publishes first, and then the second scholar publishes, everyone looks at the second scholar like they didn't achieve anything. If Navani didn't discover something new, if someone else on Roshar holds this power, does it really make her achievement any less? Everyone she ever talked to--including the millennia-old scientist--thought it was impossible. She used only the tools she had and no outside knowledge to create both Warlight and Anti-Light. Navani had no way of knowing if either was possible. People told her it wasn't. She found that it was.

I've been thinking about that actually the difference is Navani knew about it, the people Hoid talks about don't.

55 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

The Kholins did not deserve their powers. But they've grown into their powers. They've used their powers to help, to save, to unite. They are not deserving, but they are worthy.

Worthy entails being able to use them responsibly something I don't think Navani capable of doing.

3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

You say that you don’t necessarily think that Dalinar is worthy either. But here’s the difference. I don’t recall a whole lot of commentary making the argument that Dalinar was unworthy to bond the Stormfather after WoR. 

Whereas, now with Navani, there seems to be a die hard contingent dedicated to proving her lack of worthiness. And it doesn’t make sense to me.

The answer to that is simple, the Ishar scene was in RoW not WoR.

[Bejarden he/him]

Just now, mdross81 said:

You say that you don’t necessarily think that Dalinar is worthy either. But here’s the difference. I don’t recall a whole lot of commentary making the argument that Dalinar was unworthy to bond the Stormfather after WoR. 

Whereas, now with Navani, there seems to be a die hard contingent dedicated to proving her lack of worthiness. And it doesn’t make sense to me.

If I would have been on the Shard I would have.

I can’t speak fort anyone else

1 minute ago, mdross81 said:

This just doesn’t hold up. Maybe she’s not involved the the manufacturing process of fabrials, but I don’t think at this point anyone can question her mastery of the technology of fabrials and her understanding of how they work. Can we please put to bed this idea that she’s just a dilettante patron of fabrial science?

Someone can be very talented and not have this as a priority.

This is how she describes herself and how everyone else does to. 
 

 

 

1 minute ago, mdross81 said:

And she also prevented other death and destruction that would have occurred had she not acted.

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What death would have happened if she had not created A-Light in a sphere?

[+mdross81 he/him]

19 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Someone can be very talented and not have this as a priority.

This is just nonresponsive to the argument I was making. What wasn’t a priority? This doesn’t respond at all to my contention that she had a deep understanding of fabrial technology. And that understanding, by definition, makes her more than a dabbler as you called her.

19 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What death would have happened if she had not created A-Light in a sphere?

She used anti-Light to fight against Raboniel, and anti-tones, which were crucial to the development of anti-Light, to fight off Moash. Those actions together prevented the corruption of the Sibling and enabled the restored suppression of Voidlight powered surges.  Without that, the tower falls and the comatose Radiants die,  plus all the other negative consequences that would flow from the Fused retaining control of Urithiru. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by mdross81

[+mdross81 he/him]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The answer to that is simple, the Ishar scene was in RoW not WoR.

Ok, point me to all of the posts reassessing Dalinar’s worthiness as a Bondsmith now that we’ve seen the Ishar scene.

[Frustration]

Just now, mdross81 said:

Ok, point me to all of the posts reassessing Dalinar’s worthiness as a Bondsmith now that we’ve seen the Ishar scene.

Have you seen anything @Bejardin1250 has posted recently?

And on top of that Dalinar has been a Bondsmith for while and has a clean track record so far, and Dalinar has demonstrated far more self control than Navani.

[Bejarden he/him]

6 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

This is just nonresponsive to the argument I was making. What wasn’t a priority? This doesn’t respond at all to my contention that she had a deep understanding of fabrial technology. And that understanding, by definition, makes her more than a dabbler as you called her.

I’m not understanding the argument your trying to make. She is a scientist. Great. What’s that have to do with anything. If you asked Navani what her job is she will say “patron of ardents”

 

6 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

She used anti-Light to fight against Raboniel, and anti-tones, which were crucial to the development of anti-Light, to fight off Moash. Those actions together prevented the corruption of the Sibling and enabled the restored suppression of Voidlight powered surges.  Without that, the tower falls and the comatose Radiants die,  plus all the other negative consequences that would flow from the Fused retaining control of Urithiru. 

So she got lucky. When she created the sphere there is no way to know she would eventually find a knife in the corner of the room containing A-light

I also specifically said the sphere and not the tone.

[Listener she/her]

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

So Navani get's to somehow know she will discover anti-Voidlight and use it to cure the Sibling but Kal doesn't get 4th? Really?

What are you talking about?

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

4th oath is not a very big leap

Even held prisoner I would not help the people trying to conqure the world.

The 4th is a huge leap. In the book, even before the occupation, we saw Kal sinking lower than he's ever been before (except for the beginning of WoK, but he wasn't exactly a Radiant then yet). Even after all hiss successes, it just got worse and worse and only Dalinar's vision allowed him to move on. And even when he did, he just fought the Regals, he cant destroy an entire army. It was only because the suppressors were reversed that he succeeded helping the rebels near the end. And Navani didn't try to help! She did all she could to keep them from discovering it. She failed, but its the intent that counts and, anyway, she did kill Raboniel and reactivate the tower.

[+mdross81 he/him]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I’m not understanding the argument your trying to make. She is a scientist. Great. What’s that have to do with anything. If you asked Navani what her job is she will say “patron of ardents”

The argument I’m making is that your contention that she’s merely a dabbler in fabrial science doesn’t hold up. To whatever extent she’s viewed herself as merely a patron in the past, it’s clear that that’s been the result of Alethi society generally and Gavilar in particular belittling and gaslighting her.

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So she got lucky. When she created the sphere there is no way to know she would eventually find a knife in the corner of the room containing A-light

I also specifically said the sphere and not the tone.

Ok, but the tone was a necessary step in creating anti-Light. And even if she got lucky, it doesn’t change the fact that her actions headed off death and disaster as I said. You have to balance the negative outcomes with the positive when someone is in as dire a situation as she was.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And on top of that Dalinar has been a Bondsmith for while and has a clean track record so far, and Dalinar has demonstrated far more self control than Navani.

So why not give Navani some time to prove herself like Dalinar has had? Honor’s no more dead now than he was when Dalinar became a Bondsmith.

Moreover, I still just don’t see the evidence of this supposed severe lack of control from Navani. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Listener said:

What are you talking about?

It makes sense if you read the discussion around it.

1 minute ago, Listener said:

\The 4th is a huge leap. In the book, even before the occupation, we saw Kal sinking lower than he's ever been before (except for the beginning of WoK, but he wasn't exactly a Radiant then yet). 

No larger than Navani finding Anti-light something that even after aparently thousands of years of trying Raboniel still hadn't figured out.

2 minutes ago, Listener said:

And even when he did, he just fought the Regals, he cant destroy an entire army. It was only because the suppressors were reversed that he succeeded helping the rebels near the end.

The suppressior had not been fixed yet otherwise all the regals would have dropped. And yes he can drop an entire army, he held back thousands in WoK without any shards.

7 minutes ago, Listener said:

And Navani didn't try to help! She did all she could to keep them from discovering it. She failed, but its the intent that counts and, anyway, she did kill Raboniel and reactivate the tower.

Did all she could?

If handing Raboniel her notebook was all she could do to keep them from learing about it I'm disapointed.

1 minute ago, mdross81 said:

So why not give Navani some time to prove herself like Dalinar has had? Honor’s no more dead now than he was when Dalinar became a Bondsmith.

Dalinar showed control before becoming a Bondsmith.

And again I did not know how broken Bondsmith powers are at that time

2 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Moreover, I still just don’t see the evidence of this supposed severe lack of control from Navani. 

She spent the entire book outright ignoring redflags to go along with her enemy all so she could live her dream job.

[+mdross81 he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

She spent the entire book outright ignoring redflags to go along with her enemy all so she could live her dream job.

This is just a flat out exaggeration and oversimplification and you keep coming back to it. The red flags, to the extent they were evident at all, would not have been nearly as clear to an in-world character as they might have been to you as a reader. And Navani did recognize some of the dangers of what she was doing, but took the risk anyway because she thought it might help her fight back. And she clearly wasn’t just playing at a dream job. She assessed the situation and saw an opportunity to put her significant wealth of knowledge of fabrial technology to use to help fight off an invading force. 

[Listener she/her]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It makes sense if you read the discussion around it.

No larger than Navani finding Anti-light something that even after aparently thousands of years of trying Raboniel still hadn't figured out.

The suppressior had not been fixed yet otherwise all the regals would have dropped. And yes he can drop an entire army, he held back thousands in WoK without any shards.

Did all she could?

If handing Raboniel her notebook was all she could do to keep them from learing about it I'm disapointed.

Dalinar showed control before becoming a Bondsmith.

And again I did not know how broken Bondsmith powers are at that time

She spent the entire book outright ignoring redflags to go along with her enemy all so she could live her dream job.

The fact that Navani managed to discover it when an immortal hadn't is precisely why she's so extraordinary.

In WoK, he wasn't fighting an army of Fused and Regals in tight stone corridors. And dont suppressors only effect Fused? I dont remember it saying in the book that it effects Regals as well.

She did do all she could.

It says so in the book why she did it! Raboniel had already found the Anit-Voidlight plate and suspected that Navani had notes somewhere. And Navani knew that Raboniel would comb the entire room and find it. 

She didn't ignore redflags, she took some risks and did the best she could for her people. And she did enjoy the chance to be a scholar but she had already been isolated from other people and there was literally nothing else to do to help.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

This is just a flat out exaggeration and oversimplification and you keep coming back to it. The red flags, to the extent they were evident at all, would not have been nearly as clear to an in-world character as they might have been to you as a reader. And Navani did recognize some of the dangers of what she was doing, but took the risk anyway because she thought it might help her fight back. And she clearly wasn’t just playing at a dream job. She assessed the situation and saw an opportunity to put her significant wealth of knowledge of fabrial technology to use to help fight off an invading force. 

Not Obvious!

*Deep breath*

Navani has spent her entire life and still does hold to a religion that says Fused are demons, it couldn't get more obvious!

1 hour ago, Listener said:

The fact that Navani managed to discover it when an immortal hadn't is precisely why she's so extraordinary.

An incredibly lame way to be extraordinary.

1 hour ago, Listener said:

In WoK, he wasn't fighting an army of Fused and Regals in tight stone corridors. And dont suppressors only effect Fused? I dont remember it saying in the book that it effects Regals as well.

It would be weird if it didn't work on Regals.

And he didn't have shards during WoK, and after swearing fourth his Stormlight seems to work normally.

And tight corridors helps the smaller force.

[Jenet]

6 hours ago, The Technovore said:

EDIT: I think we're conflating worthiness with deserving: Do any of the Kholins deserve to be Radiants? Renarin and Adolin maybe, but their family has a long history of atrocities. Do they deserve this power? No. In fact they probably deserve a long long prison sentence. No one deserves anything. Every one has hurt others. Every one has been cruel at least once, perhaps deliberately. But seeing as how we do get mercy, we do get forgiveness, we do have these things that we do not deserve, then we can make good use of them. We can become worthy to have them.

The Kholins did not deserve their powers. But they've grown into their powers. They've used their powers to help, to save, to unite. They are not deserving, but they are worthy.

THIS!! Very good point.

[+mdross81 he/him]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not Obvious!

*Deep breath*

Navani has spent her entire life and still does hold to a religion that says Fused are demons, it couldn't get more obvious!

First, I don’t think Vorinism says anything about the Fused. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it that you meant to say Voidbringers.

Second, she may still hold some level of devotion to Vorinism. But she’s also way too smart to ignore just how much the events of the preceding year+ before RoW show that Vorin doctrine was wrong about a lot of things. I mean she provided the key to decoding the Dawnchant, which led to the reveal that the term voidbringer originally referred to humans. Her husband received visions from the Almighty explaining that he died. And her personal experiences with Rlain and Raboniel couldn’t help but challenge the view that singers are simply evil demons. Her religious faith doesn’t get you there with establishing the supposedly obvious red flags given the contradictions presented by her actual experiences.

So I hold to the view that the dangers of collaborating on research were not as obvious as you’ve made them out to be. And that Navani recognized some of the danger but took a calculated risk.

[Jenet]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not Obvious!

*Deep breath*

Navani has spent her entire life and still does hold to a religion that says Fused are demons, it couldn't get more obvious!

This in an interesting point. Navani is religious, but also a scientist. Many atheists hold that this is an impossible combination. But it isn't. Not in real life, and not in these books. Sanderson is himself a good example of this in real life. Navani discovers many things that prove that vorin teachings are wrong, but not so far anything that makes her stop believeing that there is someone there who listens to her prayers. We have in fact several examples that imply that there may be someone there beyond the Almighty that is listening. She prayed for Gavilar's death, (and regretted it - a little) and she prayed that Dalinar was alive and that Sadeas lied about the Tower massacre, and she got her answer both times. We know from Mistborn that Shard holders can answer prayers. And who knows what is meant by the God beyond. That remains to be seen.

Religion is changing in Roshar, and Navani is one of the people who changes it.