Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 30, 2021 Posted March 30, 2021 Okay, I'm typing this quickly because I don't have a lot of time at the moment, and I would like to respond to some other posts tomorrow, but I just want to write this down quickly. This is a somewhat crazy theory, but I think it does have some interesting support. Sixteen is important to the entire Cosmere, and we know ten is significant on Roshar, but was ten always significant on Roshar is the question. I have a theory on the Unmade and the Stormfather - I think that originally, there were sixteen proto-unmade, and fifteen of them were transformed into the nine unmade, with the proto-Stormfather, and part of Chemoarish were turned into the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, and then the Sibling was made entirely by Honour and Cultivation. So, why do I suggest this possibility? Because: Sja-anat indicated kinship with the Sibling, but as cousins, rather than as brother or sister Raboniel and the Sibling both believes what was going to happen to the Sibling would turn it into an unmade The conflation between Chemoarish and the Nightwatcher The number of parts in each name The low intellect of the named single-part unmade, and the intellect of the only three-part named unmade The strong connection the Stormfather has to investiture, and the weaker and more abstract nature of the Sibling and the Nightwatcher in that regard Lets look at a list of the Unmade Ashertmarn (mindless) Ba-Ado-Mishram (smartest) Chemoarish (unknown, and conflated with the Nightwatcher) Dai-Gonarthis (unknown) Moelach (unknown) Nergaoul (animalistic) Re-Shephir (semi-intelligent, able to give a report to the Fused) Sja-anat (smart, but thinks of Ba-Ado-Mishram as smarter) Yelig-nar (unknown) Now, lets count the number of parts to the names: Ashertmarn Ba Ado Mishram Chemoarish Dai Gonarthis Moelach Nergaoul Re Shephir Sja anat Yelig nar Which totals 15. With the Stormfather that makes 16. We know the Stormfather is linked directly to providing Stormlight, but the Nightwatcher, representing the life on Roshar, is linked much more indirectly to this. So, this is the theory, in brief. There were sixteen being on Roshar. Honour and Cultivation arrive, but in general leave them be, OR Honour and Cultivation combine several of them together, so Ba-Ado-Mishram was a combination of three of those beings - which might have had longer names to the Singers - and inherited their intelligence. Then Odium arrives, and starts repurposing many of them - this also might be when several were combined together. The Nightwatcher is able to salvage some of Chemoarish, which she started to cultivate back into an independent spren, while the rest is unmade, and so the Nightwatcher remains "younger" than the Stormfather in understanding while still being old, being raised and protected by Cultivation, who then, together with Honour, forms the Sibling. Honour and Cultivation give of themselves to make or enhance the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling, while Odium is content to let the unmade be at a lower level of strength so as to retain as much strength as he can, while also having agents that can do what he wants. (Also, side note, but to any objection of Honour and Cultivation not stopping Odium from unmaking any native spren, remember Cultivation didn't try to stop Raboniel from unmaking the Sibling, which sees Cultivation as its mother. It also is possible those spren were on Braize at the time, or weren't strongly connnected to either Honour or Cultivation, and only after being unmade and the Nightwatcher extracted due to some connection to Cultivation were the resulting Bondsmithspren more tightly linked to Honour and Cultivation.) This is certainly a strange theory, but I think it does have some support - and while it could be right or it could be wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if it was right or if it was wrong. What do you think? 2
Frustration Posted March 30, 2021 Posted March 30, 2021 8 minutes ago, Ixthos said: Lets look at a list of the Unmade Ashertmarn (mindless) Ba-Ado-Mishram (smartest) Chemoarish (unknown, and conflated with the Nightwatcher) Dai-Gonarthis (unknown) Moelach (unknown) Nergaoul (animalistic) Re-Shephir (semi-intelligent, able to give a report to the Fused) Sja-anat (smart, but thinks of Ba-Ado-Mishram as smarter) Yelig-nar (unknown) It should be noted that Sja-anat does not think Mishram is smarter, just craftier.
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 30, 2021 Author Posted March 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: It should be noted that Sja-anat does not think Mishram is smarter, just craftier. Fair enough, I misremembered that part. Though it is implied from context - such as others referring to Ba-Ado-Mishram as a highprincess among the enemies forces, I think references to her leading Odium's armies, and seizing control of the forces during the false desolation - that she is the smartest or most powerful of the unmade, but I agree it is conjecture. (Also, I need to head to bed now, so I'll hopefully be able to respond more later. Goodnight if it is also night to you, and good morning or good afternoon or good evening if it is morning or afternoon or evening for you :-) )
mathiau he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 The Stormfather is almost certainly older than the relevance of the number 16 Quote Questioner Pre-Shattering magic in books? Brandon Sanderson Let's see. I would count the highstorms as that. Highstorm predates the Shattering. Now, the highstorm has been changed dramatically by certain events, but the highstorm does predate the Shattering. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 31, 2021 Author Posted March 31, 2021 7 hours ago, mathiau said: The Stormfather is almost certainly older than the relevance of the number 16 I am fairly certain that the number sixteen was significant in the Cosmere before the shattering - I think the conspiracy requires sixteen members in order to work due to the significance of sixteen, rather than sixteen being significant because it was the number of people involved (excluding Hoid).
The Unknown Character he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 7 hours ago, mathiau said: The Stormfather is almost certainly older than the relevance of the number 16 I've seen this argument so many times. Just because the highstorm existed before doesn't mean the Stormfather did. It says there were big changes, what's to say the presence of the Stormfather was one of those.
mathiau he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ixthos said: I am fairly certain that the number sixteen was significant in the Cosmere before the shattering - I think the conspiracy requires sixteen members in order to work due to the significance of sixteen, rather than sixteen being significant because it was the number of people involved (excluding Hoid). Quote Paladin Brewer Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance? Brandon Sanderson I will RAFO that one. Paladin Brewer Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people? Brandon Sanderson That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways. Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017) It's likely if Hoid had taken a Shard there would be 17 of them and not 16 3 hours ago, The Unknown Order said: I've seen this argument so many times. Just because the highstorm existed before doesn't mean the Stormfather did. It says there were big changes, what's to say the presence of the Stormfather was one of those. Hence the "almost certainly" In my opinion the Stomrfather being changed from Splinter of Adonalsium to Splinter of Honour is a big enough change to change how the storms works Edited March 31, 2021 by mathiau
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 31, 2021 Author Posted March 31, 2021 9 minutes ago, mathiau said: It's likely if Hoid had taken a Shard there would be 17 of them and not 16 That quote seems to be implying the sixteen shards could have had different properties, that when split the split they formed were a way to view its traits but not the only way. Otherwise there is no reason for Brandon to RAFO the question then say it could have happened another way - the quote implies he meant a different set of sixteen shards, rather than a different number.
mathiau he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 Just now, Ixthos said: That quote seems to be implying the sixteen shards could have had different properties, that when split the split they formed were a way to view its traits but not the only way. Otherwise there is no reason for Brandon to RAFO the question then say it could have happened another way - the quote implies he meant a different set of sixteen shards, rather than a different number. The first sentence is "was it necessary that Adonalsium split into 16" Also whether big A could have been shattered in 16 Shards different than the current ones had already been answered three years before Quote Eric If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible that it could've gone a different way. Eric So it could've been different Shards? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that's plausible. Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 31, 2021 Author Posted March 31, 2021 Just now, mathiau said: The first sentence is "was it necessary that Adonalsium split into 16" Also whether big A could have been shattered in 16 Shards different than the current ones had already been answered three years before Yes, and by someone else. Multiple people can ask Brandon the same question, or related questions and get the same answer - and Brandon has likewise sometimes mistaken a question he has been asked before. Brandon having answered this question in the past doesn't mean he wasn't answering it again later, as he has been asked hundred of questions, and can't remember every one or every answer. The first part of the question was RAFOed, the next part doesn't have to follow from the first. 1
therunner he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, Ixthos said: So, this is the theory, in brief. There were sixteen being on Roshar. Honour and Cultivation arrive, but in general leave them be, OR Honour and Cultivation combine several of them together, so Ba-Ado-Mishram was a combination of three of those beings - which might have had longer names to the Singers - and inherited their intelligence. Then Odium arrives, and starts repurposing many of them - this also might be when several were combined together. The Nightwatcher is able to salvage some of Chemoarish, which she started to cultivate back into an independent spren, while the rest is unmade, and so the Nightwatcher remains "younger" than the Stormfather in understanding while still being old, being raised and protected by Cultivation, who then, together with Honour, forms the Sibling. Honour and Cultivation give of themselves to make or enhance the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling, while Odium is content to let the unmade be at a lower level of strength so as to retain as much strength as he can, while also having agents that can do what he wants. (Also, side note, but to any objection of Honour and Cultivation not stopping Odium from unmaking any native spren, remember Cultivation didn't try to stop Raboniel from unmaking the Sibling, which sees Cultivation as its mother. It also is possible those spren were on Braize at the time, or weren't strongly connnected to either Honour or Cultivation, and only after being unmade and the Nightwatcher extracted due to some connection to Cultivation were the resulting Bondsmithspren more tightly linked to Honour and Cultivation.) This is certainly a strange theory, but I think it does have some support - and while it could be right or it could be wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if it was right or if it was wrong. What do you think? Very interesting, good observation on the breaking up of the names. It is kind of odd that Cultivation is trying to shield Nightwatcher from the influence of men, when she was in past an active bondsmith spren. It is possible that if she is based on the remnant of some spren part of which was reshaped into Chemoarish that she is more susceptible to cognitive influence than the Stormfather and Sibling are. One possible supporting argument (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14590) Quote LewsTherinTelescope Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"? Brandon Sanderson RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that. General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 22, 2020) This would possibly support Ba-Ado-Mishram being in some ways related to Cultivation and Honor, possibly it was their first 'child' created by binding/cultivating 3 ancient spren together? With Sibling being the second try after Ba-Ado-Mishram was unmade by Odium, and made purely of them, without any predating Spren. Edited March 31, 2021 by therunner 1
mathiau he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, therunner said: Quote LewsTherinTelescope Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"? Brandon Sanderson RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that. General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 22, 2020) This would possibly support Ba-Ado-Mishram being in some ways related to Cultivation and Honor, possibly it was their first 'child' created by binding/cultivating 3 ancient spren together? With Sibling being the second try after Ba-Ado-Mishram was unmade by Odium, and made purely of them, without any predating Spren I don't see how this WoB give any credit to the idea of BAM being made of three sprens named Ba, Ado and Mishram, if anything it implies Ba-Ado-Mishram is a sentences which would contradict the idea that Ba, Ado and Mishram are names 1
therunner he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, mathiau said: I don't see how this WoB give any credit to the idea of BAM being made of three sprens named Ba, Ado and Mishram, if anything it implies Ba-Ado-Mishram is a sentences which would contradict the idea that Ba, Ado and Mishram are names I see it as supporting the thesis that Ba-Ado-Mishram had something to do with both Honor and Cultivation, therefore being a compound entity of sorts, this could be related to theory as I specified further. I do not see how the WoB would imply that Ba-Ado-Mishram is a sentence, as the linguistics suggests more a compound word. Of course the part where each individual word plays double role of both referring to some aspect of the new entity and also refers to some original spren is purely speculative. But the fact that the Unmade with more hyphens seem more aware and sapient then the un-hyphenated ones lends some credence to the idea that some Unmade are/were gestalt entities. 1
Quick Ben he/him Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 I actually think BAM was an original bondsmith spren, who was unmade by Odium, and that the nightwatcher came after, maybe not long before the last/false desolation. Which would explain how BAM was able to give the parsh forms or power, and why the nightwatcher is "young" and inexperienced with humans 1
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