Hey, it's another Cultivation Post

[Bejarden he/him]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There is another cognitive shadow that we are forgetting, Returned. But I don't know if they really live long enough to see those effects. Vasher doesn't seem like he is suffering from it, but he might have solved it or something?

Vasher is way younger than the Heralds by many thousands of years

And we don’t know how long it took all the Herald to crack

It was at least 5000 years to go insane they were only a little cracked at ahreitiem and were there at the Recreance to trap BAM

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Vasher is way younger than the Heralds by many thousands of years

And we don’t know how long it took all the Herald to crack

It was at least 5000 years to go insane they were only a little cracked at ahreitiem and were there at the Recreance to trap BAM

That was @apepi not me,

 

they where extrodinarally broken at Aheriatam which was them at only 2,500 years old.

[Bejarden he/him]

Yeah I know I couldn’t   find the Original quote 

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

they where extrodinarally broken at Aheriatam which was them at only 2,500 years old.

They weren’t broken they were just not down for torture 

It was more normal broken then spiritually broken

And they were apparently trusted to capture BAM at the recreance so they probably weren’t crazy then either

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

They weren’t broken they were just not down for torture 

remember, we're seeing that from their view, they are not reliable.

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

And they were apparently trusted to capture BAM at the recreance so they probably weren’t crazy then either

Nale is trusted to lead the Skybreakers, Kalak was trusted as a Judge, Ishar is trusted as a king, etc etc.

[Bejarden he/him]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 

Nale is trusted to lead the Skybreakers, Kalak was trusted as a Judge, Ishar is trusted as a king, etc etc.

Nale and Ishar are leading cults and Kalak is leading a bunch of irrational honorspren that don’t really listen to him ( they carry him off when they think he is going to be a problem)

The Radiants were rational people and probably trusted them 

So they weren’t crazy

[apepi]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think that she was starting to go insane, and Raboniel was trying to stop it to be far more likely

The Stormfather is a shadow as well, and he's been around since before the Shattering. But he is a spren too, so he's weird

This is a good point, though it is more of the 'spirit' of Tanavast and it fused with the Stormfather. Kind of like how the Fused take the body of their host, but in this case the body was a spren and they did not take it over and instead did a wierd fusion-ha thing.

I don't remember anything about if the Stormfather has started to go crazy or not, have we?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Nale and Ishar are leading cults and Kalak is leading a bunch of irrational honorspren that don’t really listen to him ( they carry him off when they think he is going to be a problem)

The Skybreakers are a cult?

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The Radiants were rational people and probably trusted them 

Rational is not how I would describe them.

[mathiau he/him]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So they weren’t crazy

Depending on what kind of madness we're talking about sometimes you can trust people, Ash is mad but you can trust her as long as you're not talking about picture of her.

2 minutes ago, apepi said:

This is a good point, though it is more of the 'spirit' of Tanavast and it fused with the Stormfather. Kind of like how the Fused take the body of their host, but in this case the body was a spren and they did not take it over and instead did a wierd fusion-ha thing.

I don't remember anything about if the Stormfather has started to go crazy or not, have we?

Well, there is the way he acted at the end of WoR when he heard about the Everstorm

[Bejarden he/him]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Skybreakers are a cult?

11 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Cult: A religion or false religion sect considered to be extreme or false, with its followers often living communally under a authoritarian or charismatic leader

This sounds a lot like the Skybreakers

Their living together right? And their wrong about their values according to the majority of Roshar 

Nale could be Authoritarian I am not familiar enough with its definition 

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Cult: A religion or false religion sect considered to be extreme or false, with its followers often living communally under a authoritarian or charismatic leader

This sounds a lot like the Skybreakers

Their living together right? And their wrong about their values according to the majority of Roshar 

Nale could be Authoritarian I am not familiar enough with its definition 

They are most certainly not a religion.

[Bejarden he/him]

You don’t think Knight radients  constitute as a religion?

Sounds like a pretty religious group it definitely has a lot of philosophy and teachings

even if their not they can be very similar to a cult 

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

You don’t think Knight radients  constitute as a religion?

nope

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

even if their not they can be very similar to a cult 

eh, Nale lets and even encourages people to disagree with him, so I find fault with this claim.

[Quick Ben he/him]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

You don’t think Knight radients  constitute as a religion?

Sounds like a pretty religious group it definitely has a lot of philosophy and teachings

even if their not they can be very similar to a cult 

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

nope

 

Considering the radiants come from a multitude of religions then they can definetly not be considered a religion unto themselves. 

Also wouldnt class the skybreakers as a cult, just a rogue arm of radiants, even dustbringers don't really align with the rest of the radiants or in actual fact the willshapers.

[Aspiring Writer]

On 3/4/2021 at 4:55 PM, mdross81 said:

With Lift we don't know what her motives are, although the Stormfather thinks she's been given the ability to metabolize food in Investiture specifically to frustrate him.

Um, pretty sure it's the fact Lift seems to partly in the Cognitive Realm and hack his visions that frustrated him. 

@apepi Your argument is meaningless because there are WoBs that confirm the reason CS and spren can't leave the planet is because of their connection to it, and you don't need Cultivation to leave the planet to get a spren of, you can manipulate your connection to get them out, Hoid clearly knows how, seeing as he has bonded a spren and was still seen on scadrial, and BS has again confirmed you can take spren off-world with a little hacking.

As for the other argument, it is clearly implied that every time a Fused is reborn, their mind is damaged more and more, however, Vasher does seem to imply that they will start to go crazy anyway as the intent takes over in RoW, so it's safe to assume they would eventually go crazy and the cost of dying sped it up. Also, pretty sure Raboniel tried to help her daughter before she got completely insane, and might have started her plan after she noticed others going insane and realized that would eventually happen to all of them.

[apepi]

6 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Um, pretty sure it's the fact Lift seems to partly in the Cognitive Realm and hack his visions that frustrated him. 

@apepi Your argument is meaningless because there are WoBs that confirm the reason CS and spren can't leave the planet is because of their connection to it, and you don't need Cultivation to leave the planet to get a spren of, you can manipulate your connection to get them out, Hoid clearly knows how, seeing as he has bonded a spren and was still seen on scadrial, and BS has again confirmed you can take spren off-world with a little hacking.

As for the other argument, it is clearly implied that every time a Fused is reborn, their mind is damaged more and more, however, Vasher does seem to imply that they will start to go crazy anyway as the intent takes over in RoW, so it's safe to assume they would eventually go crazy and the cost of dying sped it up. Also, pretty sure Raboniel tried to help her daughter before she got completely insane, and might have started her plan after she noticed others going insane and realized that would eventually happen to all of them.

I mean, of course you could hack your way around it, like Ulim potentially did. But this would be somewhat cutting themselves off of the shard, maybe? But I don't think this disproves my theory any. And for Hoid, it is potential that problem could be dealt with at that time, or storms, not even had a spren at that time, even if not, it would be Hoid out of anyone knowing how to hack the planet.

I will think about this other part some more.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, apepi said:

I mean, of course you could hack your way around it, like Ulim potentially did. But this would be somewhat cutting themselves off of the shard, maybe? But I don't think this disproves my theory any. And for Hoid, it is potential that problem could be dealt with at that time, or storms, not even had a spren at that time, even if not, it would be Hoid out of anyone knowing how to hack the planet.

I will think about this other part some more.

Ulim hacked the Oathpact, not his connection to the Rosharian system. Spren could go anywhere they want in the system, they just can't leave the system. And no, it wouldn't cut them from the shard, they are pure investure. They would manipulate the power's connection to the planet, allowing them to leave. 

As for Hoid, Mistborn Era 2 takes place after SA 5, so he defiantly has his spren.

[+mdross81 he/him]

Well, who knew my post would lead us in all of these directions. For what’s it’s worth, I wanted to weigh in on the distinction between CS and spren. Both are heavily Invested entities with at least a cognitive and a spiritual aspect. But CS I believe usually result from the spirit persisting after the death of a physical body:

Quote

R'Shara

Does a person have to die before they can become a Cognitive Shadow?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Depending on your definition of dying?

R'Shara

The physical body dies.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Spren on the other hand, can manifest in the physical realm, they are not the remnants of a living physical being. They are pieces of Investiture that gain sapience.

That said, I agree with those who have argued that both have problems when it comes to leaving the planet where their Investiture came from.

As for the madness discussion, I’m of the opinion that the Heralds and the Fused share one common source, that of being repeatedly reborn through imprinted Investiture  But I think the Heralds have an added component tied to the dissonance between the way they are revered and what they know they’ve done in abandoning the Oathpact.

Spren don’t have this problem because they are fundamentally power which is already immortal. They don’t experience time the same way as a being that was once mortal. 

I’m not sure what I think about whether Kelsier’s extended lifespan as a CS will have an impact on his sanity. Certainly it will change his perspective, and the accumulation of too many memories for a cognitive entity to hold presents an issue (that Hoid has seemingly found a solution for). I also think he will feel himself affected more and more by the Intent of the Investiture that preserved him.

 

[+mdross81 he/him]

22 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Um, pretty sure it's the fact Lift seems to partly in the Cognitive Realm and hack his visions that frustrated him. 

That’s interesting and plausible. I had been thinking that the SF viewed Lift as an exception to his near-monopoly of access to Investiture to power Surgebinding. 

[apepi]

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Ulim hacked the Oathpact, not his connection to the Rosharian system. Spren could go anywhere they want in the system, they just can't leave the system. And no, it wouldn't cut them from the shard, they are pure investure. They would manipulate the power's connection to the planet, allowing them to leave. 

As for Hoid, Mistborn Era 2 takes place after SA 5, so he defiantly has his spren.

If they can go anywhere in the Rosharan system, then it doesn't have to do anything about the planet then, it must be something else.

And I don't know if he still has his spren, we didn't actually see it or his any of their abilities he could do with it right? So we cant say for certain that he still has it.

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, apepi said:

If they can go anywhere in the Rosharan system, then it doesn't have to do anything about the planet then, it must be something else.

No, the shards are invested in that system. They are stuck in that system. That is where they are connected to.

 

3 minutes ago, apepi said:

And I don't know if he still has his spren, we didn't actually see it or his any of their abilities he could do with it right? So we cant say for certain that he still has it.

potentially but it would be a strange decision to kill Design after giving him her.

[Bejarden he/him]

He could have passed the bond of design 

But I could totally see Wit killing Design he is very much an “ends justify the means” person

Edited March 7, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[apepi]

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

No, the shards are invested in that system. They are stuck in that system. That is where they are connected to.

 

potentially but it would be a strange decision to kill Design after giving him her.

But we don't know why they aren't invested on other systems though. The spren would be part of their investment. Why don't we see Honor on other worlds? Why haven't we seen Cultivation on any others? A lot of other shards we have seen invested in other places, there must be a reason for it. I think it is because they, like Oduim, are stuck there.

We have seen other ways people could lose a spren.

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, apepi said:

But we don't know why they aren't invested on other systems though. The spren would be part of their investment. Why don't we see Honor on other worlds? Why haven't we seen Cultivation on any others? A lot of other shards we have seen invested in other places, there must be a reason for it. I think it is because they, like Oduim, are stuck there.

Because they are invested on that world and don't want to leave it. For honor, he is splintered so he can't really move systems, and most of the Shards we see are focused on one planet. they can take their investiture back and move to another planet, but they don't really have much of a reason to.

And what shards are invested in other places do you speak of, because investiture can travel between worlds, like Breath, which is the easiest investiture to take off world. they are not kept there against their will. (Except maybe harmony, which is currently fighting another avatar.)

[mathiau he/him]

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He could have passed the bond of design 

But I could totally see Wit killing Design he is very much an “ends justify the means” person

Yes but there's canonically is a way to get Sprens offworld so I don't believe it at all

 

6 minutes ago, apepi said:

But we don't know why they aren't invested on other systems though. The spren would be part of their investment. Why don't we see Honor on other worlds? Why haven't we seen Cultivation on any others? A lot of other shards we have seen invested in other places, there must be a reason for it. I think it is because they, like Oduim, are stuck there.

We have seen other ways people could lose a spren.

Er...

Quote

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

[apepi]

17 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Because they are invested on that world and don't want to leave it. For honor, he is splintered so he can't really move systems, and most of the Shards we see are focused on one planet. they can take their investiture back and move to another planet, but they don't really have much of a reason to.

And what shards are invested in other places do you speak of, because investiture can travel between worlds, like Breath, which is the easiest investiture to take off world. they are not kept there against their will. (Except maybe harmony, which is currently fighting another avatar.)

But it also stops spren from leaving as well.

Aviar, breaths, metalminds, seons....

Edited March 8, 2021 by apepi