This aged well

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Someone upvoted this recently, which reminded me of it (had completely forgot this thread). And, after RoW, I am kind of proud that I randomly guessed this one year ahead.

Taravangian = Odium? - Stormlight Archive - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

[Honorless he/him]

Lol, well done! 

[digitalbusker he/him]

I'm in awe of how quickly people pointed out the big problem with Taravangian picking up Odium, his preference for dispassionate logic, without realizing the fix for that was already in place, in the form of dumb-but-emotional Taravangian.

[EPS he/him]

Well done.

Personally, I had no clue this was coming, but as soon as I read it this feeling came over me like I had always known it was going to happen. It was kind of weird in the way that I was totally surprised while reading it but at the same time not surprised at all. I'm really not sure how to describe it.

[Gderu]

And I argued against you lol. Nice one!

[+robardin he/him]

Well played, sir! Not sure if I'd posted theories to this effect, but I had long considered that Odium was likely to be defeated in the "first five" story arc of SA as the Roshar-specific antagonist (despite what happened on Sel and to Ambition), rather than him being some kind of ultimate Cosmere-spanning antagonist that would be introduced/dealt with in the "back five". In which case, someone else taking up the Shard of Odium could be anybody - and I did think Cultivation was playing a long game with Taravangian, just as she had been with Dalinar, so that didn't really surprise me quite so much.

No, what surprised me was when and how it happened. In book FOUR, I got blindsided; and in such a casual way, too. I kind of assumed it'd happen at the Contest of Champions in Book Five. So, score another on the long list of Well Played, Brandon, I Was Looking For Your Twist And Still Got Twisted items.

Now, mark me down for Team "Don't Underestimate Cultivation" in terms of what Taravangian may now do as Odium. It's part of Taravangian's nature as the Vessel (and fed into by the Shard's intent) to think, Oh, you wonderful creature... You have no idea what you have done in engineering his Ascension. But she's been planning two or three steps ahead of another Shard, over the course of lifetimes... Do you really think she didn't fully appreciate the nature of Taravangian, who she understood deeply enough to manipulate into forming the Diagram, employing Szeth, and ultimately into becoming Odium, in terms of how that would play out once he became Odium?

Edited February 10, 2021 by robardin

[Firesong she/her]

On 2/3/2021 at 10:28 AM, digitalbusker said:

I'm in awe of how quickly people pointed out the big problem with Taravangian picking up Odium, his preference for dispassionate logic, without realizing the fix for that was already in place, in the form of dumb-but-emotional Taravangian.

Well, we don't fully know how his altering states would work now that he is a Vessel. I am of the opinion it was probably washed away entirely when he became Odium. So he is probably just logical now. I assume logical as that fits more with what (little) we have seen of Todium, and that would also lead him more towards his goals. 

But, he could still flip around, that is still a definite possibility. We just, don't really have any answers at the moment. 

[Vissy]

On 2/10/2021 at 2:42 AM, robardin said:

Well played, sir! Not sure if I'd posted theories to this effect, but I had long considered that Odium was likely to be defeated in the "first five" story arc of SA as the Roshar-specific antagonist (despite what happened on Sel and to Ambition), rather than him being some kind of ultimate Cosmere-spanning antagonist that would be introduced/dealt with in the "back five". In which case, someone else taking up the Shard of Odium could be anybody - and I did think Cultivation was playing a long game with Taravangian, just as she had been with Dalinar, so that didn't really surprise me quite so much.

No, what surprised me was when and how it happened. In book FOUR, I got blindsided; and in such a casual way, too. I kind of assumed it'd happen at the Contest of Champions in Book Five. So, score another on the long list of Well Played, Brandon, I Was Looking For Your Twist And Still Got Twisted items.

Now, mark me down for Team "Don't Underestimate Cultivation" in terms of what Taravangian may now do as Odium. It's part of Taravangian's nature as the Vessel (and fed into by the Shard's intent) to think, Oh, you wonderful creature... You have no idea what you have done in engineering his Ascension. But she's been planning two or three steps ahead of another Shard, over the course of lifetimes... Do you really think she didn't fully appreciate the nature of Taravangian, who she understood deeply enough to manipulate into forming the Diagram, employing Szeth, and ultimately into becoming Odium, in terms of how that would play out once he became Odium?

Another problem for TOdium is that Cultivation is absolutely stronger than Odium as a Shard right now because of the way Odium is invested into the system. If she wanted, she could destroy Odium right now albeit at great cost. She's drawn her entire deck into her hand while Odium is just beginning the game. Odium the Shard is still locked together in some kind of death grip with Honor's remnants.

[+robardin he/him]

46 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Another problem for TOdium is that Cultivation is absolutely stronger than Odium as a Shard right now because of the way Odium is invested into the system. If she wanted, she could destroy Odium right now albeit at great cost. She's drawn her entire deck into her hand while Odium is just beginning the game. Odium the Shard is still locked together in some kind of death grip with Honor's remnants.

Is that known? Certainly RaysOdium, when talking to Dalinar in OB (Ch. 57), was pretty confident about how first thing he'd do if/when Dalinar released him from the bonds laid upon him, if the terms were simply to "go away, leave us alone", was to destroy her:

Quote

"What are the consequences of my releasing you?"

"Well, first I'd see to Cultivation's death. There would be... other consequences, as you call them, as well. ... I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial."

For that matter, we still have it as a RAFO as to how exactly Odium was ever able to go on his killing spree of at least four other Shards (Ambition, Dominion and Devotion in a kind of twin killing, and then eventually Honor, despite already being bound) if all sixteen were originally exactly equal in power.

[HoidIsAdonalsium]

17 hours ago, robardin said:

For that matter, we still have it as a RAFO as to how exactly Odium was ever able to go on his killing spree of at least four other Shards (Ambition, Dominion and Devotion in a kind of twin killing, and then eventually Honor, despite already being bound) if all sixteen were originally exactly equal in power.

@robardin, I am assuming it has got to do with Shardic contracts made when taking up shards based on this statement by Wit in Rhythm of War:

Quote

 "We’ll add a line to the contract,” Wit said, “naming me as a contractual liaison for Honor—whom Dalinar represents. This will protect me from Odium’s direct attacks for the life of the contract. He will have to abide by those terms, as they are part of the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. To fail that promise would give others an opening against him, and said failures have killed gods before. Odium knows it. So do this, and I can help you openly. As myself."

Crossing the terms made when taking up shards probably has dire consequences and Odium was able to manipulate Ambition/Devotion etc into breaching one of them.

[+robardin he/him]

5 hours ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

@robardin, I am assuming it has got to do with Shardic contracts made when taking up shards based on this statement by Wit in Rhythm of War:

Crossing the terms made when taking up shards probably has dire consequences and Odium was able to manipulate Ambition/Devotion etc into breaching one of them.

That's a good catch. We do know Aona and Skai immediately broke the common agreement not to Shardically shack up on a planet; and presumably the same is true of Honor and Cultivation, and if he could have gotten around to it, Preservation and Ruin.

How he killed Ambition, though... Per the epigraph in Ch. 27 of Rhythm of War, we learned that that was actually a three-way battle between Odium, Ambition, and Mercy, the latter of who survived, and Odium (instead of going after Mercy) left to pay that visit to Aona and Skai in the Selish system instead.

[bmcclure7]

On 2/3/2021 at 9:51 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Someone upvoted this recently, which reminded me of it (had completely forgot this thread). And, after RoW, I am kind of proud that I randomly guessed this one year ahead.

Taravangian = Odium? - Stormlight Archive - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

 Amazing how literally everyone on the thread dismissed this theory in favor of a different one.