The Possibility of More Than 3 Bondsmiths

[FrostiiBeren]

So last night, during Sanderon's livestream, I asked if the maximum amount of Bondsmiths is set at 3 like it was historically. Brandon responded that there have not been more than 3 at one time historically with emphasis on historically. The smirk and laughter in the background makes me think he's being coy about the possibility of more than 3 Bondsmiths in the future.

My theory is that there could be Bondsmiths for each type of light and associated "god-spren".

Stormfather - Stormlight

Nightwatcher - Lifelight

Sibling - Towerlight

BAM - Voidlight

Sja-anat - Warlight

??? - unnamed Lifelight/Voidlight combo. This spren may not exist yet or we're not aware of it.

 

BAM being a god-spren for Bondsmiths might answer a lot of the questions about deadeyes, the recreance, ect. This would tie in to the theorizing that imprisoning her lead to tons of Connection issues on Roshar. Her bondsmith might be able to fix these Connections but I might be getting too out-there with my theory.

 

Let me know your thoughts. First Topic post on 17th Shard so let me know if I messed anything up (tags, spoilers, ect)!

 

-Beren

[Frustration he/him]

Branon has said that there was no Bondsmith equivelant umong the Unmade, maybe at one point there was but Odium Unmade them again and it changed.

[FrostiiBeren]

That definitely throws a wrench in my theory, lol.

I wonder if they un-making can be reversed or if BAM/Sja-Anat can change themselves in such a way. Was it Sja-Anat who was trying to become a like god herself? I thought I heard it mentioned in a Shardcast.

@Ookla The Frustrated I saw your post on the other thread - the theory that BAM's involvement in Radiant Connections is what lead me to believe that she could possible be a Bondsmith spren or something similar but the WoB have struck me down.

[Karger he/him]

12 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Branon has said that there was no Bondsmith equivelant umong the Unmade, maybe at one point there was but Odium Unmade them again and it changed.

That is not exactly true.

Quote

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

I personally think that each of the nine unmade plus the stormfather were the patrons of one of the ten orders of sapiant spren.  The stormfather is the patron of the honorspren after all.  Maybe the midnight mother had a similar relationship to the cryptics?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Karger said:

That is not exactly true.

No, not exactly

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I personally think that each of the nine unmade plus the stormfather were the patrons of one of the ten orders of sapiant spren.  The stormfather is the patron of the honorspren after all.  Maybe the midnight mother had a similar relationship to the cryptics?

How does the Nightwatcher and her similarity to Cultivaionspren fit into that?

5 minutes ago, FrostiiBeren said:

That definitely throws a wrench in my theory, lol.

I wonder if they un-making can be reversed or if BAM/Sja-Anat can change themselves in such a way. Was it Sja-Anat who was trying to become a like god herself? I thought I heard it mentioned in a Shardcast.

Sja-anat wants to be but BAM actually tried

5 minutes ago, FrostiiBeren said:

 

@Ookla The Frustrated I saw your post on the other thread - the theory that BAM's involvement in Radiant Connections is what lead me to believe that she could possible be a Bondsmith spren or something similar but the WoB have struck me down.

There is something fun going on with BAM and I can't wait to see.

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

How does the Nightwatcher and her similarity to Cultivaionspren fit into that?

We know now the Nightwatcher was made by Cultivation rather then Adonalsium.  It is quite possible one of the reasons she was added in was to offset some of the damage done by the unmaking.

[garlick]

All the bondsmith spren seem to have different roles/personal powers. Boons and curses for the nightwatcher also I'm assuming life light, the stormfather renews spheres, and the sibling runs the tower and produces tower light. 

 Now this is my personal opinion so take it as you wish. I think bam became a bondsmith type unmade possibly making warlight. This is assuming she was a spren of honor before she became an unmade which mixed odiums and honors lights/tones. Why did the powers seem new for the false desolation? My best guess would be thats when odium became part of roshar in the way honor and cultivation are. That's when she gained the powers of a bondsmith spren. The powers of a bondsmith is connection. Bam connected to all the singer's and also granting "voidlight". 2 things we know a bondsmith can do. 

Now that odiums a part of the system alot of things will change on roshar. There's new spren of odium and cultivation..renerin and rlains "truthwatcher" spren. We haven't seen other types corrupted yet but I can see this being done in the future and I feel like the dead eyes will play a role in the new "warspren".

 As for other unmade im not so sure all of them could become a new bondsmith spren in the future, but the ones with minds like sja anat I think the possibilities there. She already seems like a cultivation spren thats been unmade which could make the lifelight/goodnight combo. 

 No matter who wins this contest of champions I think roshar is in for some major changes.

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, garlick said:

Now this is my personal opinion so take it as you wish. I think bam became a bondsmith type unmade possibly making warlight

Wouldn't the Raboneil know then?  The fused may have been trapped but voidspren were still around.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

@garlick totally what I was thinking. Once Odium became fully invested in the Roshar system, there were bound to be some changes. 

I believe BAM is the pure Odium bondsmith spren. I think Sja-anat is also trying to become one. Maybe she'll be the Odium/Cultivation hybrid?

Any guesses for the Odium/honor hybrid?

[garlick]

49 minutes ago, Karger said:

Wouldn't the Raboneil know then?  The fused may have been trapped but voidspren were still around.

Maybe thats how she knew warlight was possible. It may well be she is odiums bondsmith and only gave voidlight. But with her capture many things changed. I just feel like she would need to be connected to honor in someway to effect the radiant spren and turning them into dead eyes.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

What if BAM became the spren of all three Shards? If there's a spren for Honor(Stormfather) and a spren for Cultivation(Night watcher) and hybrid spren Honor+Cultivation=(Sibling) could there be a spren of all three? 

If BAM were connected to all three Shards her imprisonment would affect all aspects of Roshar. 

That would mean a total of 7 Bondsmith spren.

Honor=Stormfather

Cultivation=Nightwatcher 

Odium=?

Honor+Cultivation=Sibling

Honor+Odium=?

Cultivation+Odium=?

Honor+Cultivation+Odium= BAM?

[impec1995]

If BAM is actually a Bondsmith spren, the False Desolation could have happened due to her obtaining a bond. It's then explainable how the Sibling knew how to go into hiding, as they would have presumably felt another Bondsmith swearing their oaths.

Quote

Honor+Cultivation+Odium= BAM?

BAM is probably an Odium godspren imo, I doubt someone who would be so Connected to all the Shards would cause a Desolation.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

11 hours ago, artifabrian longshadow said:

If BAM is actually a Bondsmith spren, the False Desolation could have happened due to her obtaining a bond. It's then explainable how the Sibling knew how to go into hiding, as they would have presumably felt another Bondsmith swearing their oaths.

Oooooo juicy. 

11 hours ago, artifabrian longshadow said:

BAM is probably an Odium godspren imo, I doubt someone who would be so Connected to all the Shards would cause a Desolation.

Unless they viewed the singer's as in the right. If they did form a bond it would most likely be with a Singer (false desolation and all that). We've seen that the Bondsmith has some influence with their spren. Maybe they were convinced the Singers were in the right.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you. It would make a lot of sense for BAM to be Odium's. If she was 100% Odium however, why all the drastic changes to spren and singers? Again, I don't disagree per se, I'm just exploring options.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Steel Inquisitive

[Dunkum he/him]

20 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

What if BAM became the spren of all three Shards? If there's a spren for Honor(Stormfather) and a spren for Cultivation(Night watcher) and hybrid spren Honor+Cultivation=(Sibling) could there be a spren of all three? 

If BAM were connected to all three Shards her imprisonment would affect all aspects of Roshar. 

That would mean a total of 7 Bondsmith spren.

Honor=Stormfather

Cultivation=Nightwatcher 

Odium=?

Honor+Cultivation=Sibling

Honor+Odium=?

Cultivation+Odium=?

Honor+Cultivation+Odium= BAM?

I'm inclined to agree with others that BAM is likely pure Odium, but I agree there could be godspren for all of these combinations.  though whether a spren of Odium would be able to create a Bondsmith, given the Honor/adhesion connection is a separate question.  though if the Nightwatcher can then it seems possible.

[Honorless he/him]

The Unmade seem to have been natural spren of Roshar before they were unmade by Odium, so Bonding them should be possible. We saw Re-Shephir try it too. And Brandon has confirmed that it could be done:

Quote

Questioner

Can the Unmade be bonded?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, plausible... Yes, or possible, I should say.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Given how it was said that trying to have more than 3 Bondsmiths was "seditious", just the way it was phrased makes me think that the Unmade might have been capable of Bonding a Bondsmith. I think this could still happen in the future as a possible resolution.

[Karger he/him]

On 12/18/2020 at 5:15 PM, garlick said:

Maybe thats how she knew warlight was possible. It may well be she is odiums bondsmith and only gave voidlight. But with her capture many things changed. I just feel like she would need to be connected to honor in someway to effect the radiant spren and turning them into dead eyes.

Odium does not have a bondsmith traditionally.

[garlick]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Odium does not have a bondsmith traditionally.

I know that goes to my original opinion that bam became one for odium and that's how she provided voidlight to the singer's. That or is a hybrid between honor and odiums power

[Darth_Hel]

Could fit in with my theory that Sja-Anat went to Cultivation and gained her ability to "corrupt" True Spren from her. Cultivation could have given her the Bondsmith powers of an Odium/Cultivation hybrid. Also, it seems like everyone that Cultivation's old magic gets used upon needs to consent so far, which might be why Sja-Anat needs consenting True Spren to use her magic upon them. 

My original post questioning about Sja-Anat was here 

 

[Proletariat]

Yeah, I think it's a pretty high certainty that there could be more than 3 Bondsmiths. But I think only some of the Unmade have this potential and that the Adhesion surge would be pretty different for them. Here's what we know, IMO:

• we know that the Radiants believed you could expand the Bondsmith order, but that it would be seditious to do so (Epigraphs);
• we know that you need an appropriate spren to become a member of an order (for e.g Nale joining), but that this spren being corrupted is no barrier (for e.g Renarin); and
• we know that Unmade can bond people and would be seditious to bond.

Where it gets murky is that we have already seen one of the Unmade bonds, such as Yelig-Nar, and they have not produced Bondsmiths. We have also seen that Odium has problems generating the Adhesion surge, which casts doubt on whether a Bondsmith linked to Odium could use Bondsmith surges. The counter-example is that the Sibling would've become Unmade, and the Truthwatcher precedent is that it would've loosely produced someone of the same Radiant order despite corruption but with one of the surges a bit warped. 

My conjecture is that most Unmade cannot generate Bondsmiths except either BAM or Sja-Anat, that the Unmade Bondsmith will make use of Voidlight, and that the Adhesion surge will work entirely differently for them. The other encountered Unmade are either completely mindless (Ashertmarn, Moelach, Nergaoul), still pretty animalistic (Re-Shepnir), or are known to bond differently (Yelig-Nar).

 

 

[garlick]

4 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Yeah, I think it's a pretty high certainty that there could be more than 3 Bondsmiths. But I think only some of the Unmade have this potential and that the Adhesion surge would be pretty different for them. Here's what we know, IMO:

• we know that the Radiants believed you could expand the Bondsmith order, but that it would be seditious to do so (Epigraphs);
• we know that you need an appropriate spren to become a member of an order (for e.g Nale joining), but that this spren being corrupted is no barrier (for e.g Renarin); and
• we know that Unmade can bond people and would be seditious to bond.

Where it gets murky is that we have already seen one of the Unmade bonds, such as Yelig-Nar, and they have not produced Bondsmiths. We have also seen that Odium has problems generating the Adhesion surge, which casts doubt on whether a Bondsmith linked to Odium could use Bondsmith surges. The counter-example is that the Sibling would've become Unmade, and the Truthwatcher precedent is that it would've loosely produced someone of the same Radiant order despite corruption but with one of the surges a bit warped. 

My conjecture is that most Unmade cannot generate Bondsmiths except either BAM or Sja-Anat, that the Unmade Bondsmith will make use of Voidlight, and that the Adhesion surge will work entirely differently for them. The other encountered Unmade are either completely mindless (Ashertmarn, Moelach, Nergaoul), still pretty animalistic (Re-Shepnir), or are known to bond differently (Yelig-Nar).

 

 

This is pretty much what I'm thinking.

[Grishnak]

On 18/12/2020 at 10:31 PM, Steel Inquisitive said:

What if BAM became the spren of all three Shards? If there's a spren for Honor(Stormfather) and a spren for Cultivation(Night watcher) and hybrid spren Honor+Cultivation=(Sibling) could there be a spren of all three? 

If BAM were connected to all three Shards her imprisonment would affect all aspects of Roshar. 

That would mean a total of 7 Bondsmith spren.

Honor=Stormfather

Cultivation=Nightwatcher 

Odium=?

Honor+Cultivation=Sibling

Honor+Odium=?

Cultivation+Odium=?

Honor+Cultivation+Odium= BAM?

It seems like the ? should already be at least somewhat known. Odiums being one of the unmade, presumably? Then Sja for another , maybe cultivation+odium?

 

Maybe cui-whatsit, the huge thingy from the interludes could be one too

[Darth_Hel]

Odium's number is 9, and his shard is based upon hatred. I'm not sold on the idea that he could naturally make his own Bondsmith, which might be why he seemingly hasn't had one before. So, it might be that pure voidlight doesn't have a chance at one, but Warlight and the Lifelight+Voidlight (my guess for this one would be Sja-Anat) could each have one .