Taravangian's Empathy and the Diagram

[Moogle]

Would like to point out that we havent seen any real plan for saving humanity from the diagram either, what we have seen so far is only on gaining power for king T, removing threats to his power.

 

I'm not so sure on this. There's this very tantalizing hint from T's interlude:

“Do not spend too much effort on that,” Taravangian said, approaching another group of Veden soldiers. “I’m not sure what we would even do if we found the thing.” An ancient, evil spren was not something he had the resources to tackle. Not yet at least. “I would rather know where Moelach is moving.”

 

Taravangian's plan involves something that gives him the ability to kill or otherwise deal with the Unmade. This is something that it seems the KR were unable to do in previous Desolations. I think it's very likely there's a lot more to the Diagram than just conquering the world. Heck, look at this bit:

 

You must become king. Of Everything.

—From the Diagram, Tenets of Instruction, Back of the Footboard: paragraph 1

 

This is the first paragraph of an entire "book" of instructions. Conquering the world is step one in what appears to be a very involved plan. I'm going to give the Diagram the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that the entire plan isn't "Step 1) Conquer world, Step 2) ???, Step 3) Profit".

[maxal]

The info might come from the same visions (though we're not certain yet), but Diagram T was smarter than Dalinar would ever be, so imo T is the one with the better plan.

 

I don't get it. Why would Mr T be able to come up with a better plan simply because he is smarter? I mean, the best plans are not always devised by the smartest persons.... and the world smartest person can be bested by a lesser mind any day. In fact, I believe being too smart is Mr T downfall: he is unable to see the flaws in his logic as he believed nobody can be smarter than him. He does not believe he could be wrong.

[Aleksiel]

I don't get it. Why would Mr T be able to come up with a better plan simply because he is smarter? I mean, the best plans are not always devised by the smartest persons.... and the world smartest person can be bested by a lesser mind any day. In fact, I believe being too smart is Mr T downfall: he is unable to see the flaws in his logic as he believed nobody can be smarter than him. He does not believe he could be wrong.

 

T being wrong won't be good news for humanity.

 

T asked for the capacity to save the human kind. Dalinar might or might not have the capacity to save humanity. Diagram T was smarter than brilliant, had much more information than Dalinar, much more experience in dealing with world politics and ruling people (regardles of his lack of empathy), had more knowledge of what is going on and will happen, knew more about the Radiants, the Unmade and likely many other things.

 

Not being able to follow the Diagram or not reading it correctly might be what fails Vargo in the end, however he is/was best fit to come up with a reliable plan. 

[Shaggai]

And what these others ways that have a good chance to save humanity?

 

Diagram T knew about the new Radinats and thought them incapable. The champion that Tanavast suggested? He himself didn't know if that would work, whereas the Diagram has a way to ensure the survival of humanity should T be able to follow it. It's unclear whether or not Diagram T knew about the champion option and what he though of it. Obviously Honor, being bound by his shardic intention, couldn't suggest anything better. It's unknown whether or not the champion path will save as many/fewer/more people as the Diagram and if the champion option is part of the Diagram.

 

I keep seeing people saying that there are better ways than the Diagram, but I am yet to read even one.

The others that have a good chance to save humanity are Dalinar and the new Radiants. Not because they're in a particularly strong position right not, but because of specialized physics that come into play in the Cosmere. No, not Investiture. I'm talking about narrative physics. Narrative physics are very, very strong. And in the sort of situations such as the current one on Roshar, it forces reality into patterns. The few people with magical powers, against a vast horde of dangerous enemies under the control of a being of pure hatred? Of course they're going to win.

[maxal]

T being wrong won't be good news for humanity.

 

T asked for the capacity to save the human kind. Dalinar might or might not have the capacity to save humanity. Diagram T was smarter than brilliant, had much more information than Dalinar, much more experience in dealing with world politics and ruling people (regardles of his lack of empathy), had more knowledge of what is going on and will happen, knew more about the Radiants, the Unmade and likely many other things.

 

Not being able to follow the Diagram or not reading it correctly might be what fails Vargo in the end, however he is/was best fit to come up with a reliable plan. 

 

This is exactly why I have so much trouble with Mr T and the Diagram. He had all the pieces, he asked for the capacity to save humanity, but that does not mean his plan is the right one. It does not mean he is not wrong. Just because he was smarter than brilliant does not mean his plan is the best one and the simple fact it calls for mass massacres lets me think it is incredibly wrong.

 

I do not understand why his plan must be the "best fit". Because he was smart that day? Because he is more knowledgeable than most? That makes him fail proof? That makes his plan the best one because he spent more time thinking on it? For me, a plan is good if it has reasonable chances of succeeding and I completely fail to see how Mr T's plan could ever work. I utterly fail to see how bringing chaos across all nations such as to put his so-brilliant self as king is a way to counter-act the Desolation. At best, he will succeed, but he will destroy humanity while doing so. At worst, he will doom humanity by crippling its capacity to fight back.

 

I believe Mr T is so smart he got arrogant. He does not believe in anyone else, save himself. If he did, than he might be a valuable asset to find a real durable solution, but no, he is so confident HIS plan is the best due to his supposed smartness he goes forward spreading evil. 

 

Maybe I am being thick-headed when it comes to Mr T as no matter how much we discuss him, I still fail to understand. However, I will agree he is a nice villain.

[Aleksiel]

The others that have a good chance to save humanity are Dalinar and the new Radiants. Not because they're in a particularly strong position right not, but because of specialized physics that come into play in the Cosmere. No, not Investiture. I'm talking about narrative physics. Narrative physics are very, very strong. And in the sort of situations such as the current one on Roshar, it forces reality into patterns. The few people with magical powers, against a vast horde of dangerous enemies under the control of a being of pure hatred? Of course they're going to win.

 

Ah, that million to one chance that succeeds nine out of ten times? Well, I can't argue with that. They shall be victorious then!

 

 

This is exactly why I have so much trouble with Mr T and the Diagram. He had all the pieces, he asked for the capacity to save humanity, but that does not mean his plan is the right one. It does not mean he is not wrong. Just because he was smarter than brilliant does not mean his plan is the best one and the simple fact it calls for mass massacres lets me think it is incredibly wrong.

 

I do not understand why his plan must be the "best fit". Because he was smart that day? Because he is more knowledgeable than most? That makes him fail proof? That makes his plan the best one because he spent more time thinking on it? For me, a plan is good if it has reasonable chances of succeeding and I completely fail to see how Mr T's plan could ever work. I utterly fail to see how bringing chaos across all nations such as to put his so-brilliant self as king is a way to counter-act the Desolation. At best, he will succeed, but he will destroy humanity while doing so. At worst, he will doom humanity by crippling its capacity to fight back.

 

I believe Mr T is so smart he got arrogant. He does not believe in anyone else, save himself. If he did, than he might be a valuable asset to find a real durable solution, but no, he is so confident HIS plan is the best due to his supposed smartness he goes forward spreading evil. 

 

Maybe I am being thick-headed when it comes to Mr T as no matter how much we discuss him, I still fail to understand. However, I will agree he is a nice villain.

 

A villain? I thought he was an anti-hero. Well, never mind.

 

I think you are too emotional and clouds your judgement on the Diagram. Do you blame T for not coming up with something less morally arguable? If you ask me, T must do his absolute best to save humanity and if that's the Diagram, then so be it.

 

Becoming a 'king of everything' is, as Moogle pointed out, the first sentence of a whole book with instructions. We don't know what T planned to do after that. For me it's obvious he has something better in mind than simply uniting, else Vargo wouldn't follow the Diagram and noone would believe the plan had a reasonably good chance of success. We don't know what he has planned to do after that, but it must be something good enough to convince many to help him - Andro, Mrall, the stormwardens and others, including the emphatic not-so brilliant Vargo himself.

 

I understand your desire for there to be a better plan, but so far there just isn't. 

[maxal]

A villain? I thought he was an anti-hero. Well, never mind.

 

Well yes. I do see him as a villain. I certainly do not see him as an anti-hero. He willingly planned the massacre of thousand of innocents. True, his master goal is to save humanity, but his lack of empathy made him choose a very damaging plan.

 

 

I think you are too emotional and clouds your judgement on the Diagram. Do you blame T for not coming up with something less morally arguable? If you ask me, T must do his absolute best to save humanity and if that's the Diagram, then so be it.

 

Becoming a 'king of everything' is, as Moogle pointed out, the first sentence of a whole book with instructions. We don't know what T planned to do after that. For me it's obvious he has something better in mind than simply uniting, else Vargo wouldn't follow the Diagram and noone would believe the plan had a reasonably good chance of success. We don't know what he has planned to do after that, but it must be something good enough to convince many to help him - Andro, Mrall, the stormwardens and others, including the emphatic not-so brilliant Vargo himself.

 

I understand your desire for there to be a better plan, but so far there just isn't. 

 

It could be I am being overly emotional when it comes to Mr T.

 

However, I do read him as a very antipathetic persona who is willing to commit the worst atrocities in the name of a plan he believes is the only one to save humanity. I do not buy the argument he was so smart that day he designed the perfect plan. It is a plan, I concede. I even concede it is the only full one we have so far, but it is only because our main crew have not been aware of the end game until recently. I believe Mr T lack of empathy made him chose a bad plan, a plan causing mass destruction because he sees it as the quicker way to obtain unity. He has overlooked the impact of such events on the nations and the people themselves. He simply believes they will follow him if he forces them to. To him, it sounds like a good plan. Super smart Mr T designed to be fail proof except for one thing: the truth will come out at some point and the people will not want to follow a despotic murderer. I believe Mr T has discarded many much better plans because he fails to see how the end does not always justify the mean. He also became so arrogant in his supremacy he fails to see how his super smart judgement may be false.

 

Now that Dalinar and co are aware of what is happening, we are bound to see some other plans. Launching massive civil war in Jah Keved was useless and costly in terms of human life. Uniting Jah Keved with Alethkar could have been achieve differently. The same could be said about Purelake. Azir is willing to talk with the king. Azir will most likely listen and support Dalinar. Other countries will follow afterwards. Mass destruction was not necessary.

[Shaggai]

Well yes. I do see him as a villain. I certainly do not see him as an anti-hero. He willingly planned the massacre of thousand of innocents. True, his master goal is to save humanity, but his lack of empathy made him choose a very damaging plan.

 

 

 

It could be I am being overly emotional when it comes to Mr T.

 

However, I do read him as a very antipathetic persona who is willing to commit the worst atrocities in the name of a plan he believes is the only one to save humanity. I do not buy the argument he was so smart that day he designed the perfect plan. It is a plan, I concede. I even concede it is the only full one we have so far, but it is only because our main crew have not been aware of the end game until recently. I believe Mr T lack of empathy made him chose a bad plan, a plan causing mass destruction because he sees it as the quicker way to obtain unity. He has overlooked the impact of such events on the nations and the people themselves. He simply believes they will follow him if he forces them to. To him, it sounds like a good plan. Super smart Mr T designed to be fail proof except for one thing: the truth will come out at some point and the people will not want to follow a despotic murderer. I believe Mr T has discarded many much better plans because he fails to see how the end does not always justify the mean. He also became so arrogant in his supremacy he fails to see how his super smart judgement may be false.

 

Now that Dalinar and co are aware of what is happening, we are bound to see some other plans. Launching massive civil war in Jah Keved was useless and costly in terms of human life. Uniting Jah Keved with Alethkar could have been achieve differently. The same could be said about Purelake. Azir is willing to talk with the king. Azir will most likely listen and support Dalinar. Other countries will follow afterwards. Mass destruction was not necessary.

Antiheroes, generally, are people who do bad things for a good reason. Rorschach from Watchmen, for example, is often viewed as an antihero. By that definition, Taravangian is an antihero, not a villain.

[maxal]

Antiheroes, generally, are people who do bad things for a good reason. Rorschach from Watchmen, for example, is often viewed as an antihero. By that definition, Taravangian is an antihero, not a villain.

 

I agree Mr T fits with the general description of an anti-hero.

 

a protagonist who lacks the attributes that make a heroic figure, as nobility of mind and spirit, a life or attitude marked by action or purpose, and the like.

 

However, I have one issue with applying the qualification to Mr T... Anti-hero are typically designed to be likeable, sympathetic despite their flaws. They must have sufficient heroic qualities to attract the main public sympathy. Classical anti-hero include persons such as: Severus Snape, Dexter Morgan, Jack Sparrow and such. All are coming out as sympathetic to most viewers/readers despite being betrayers, murderers, serial killers and drunken wimps.

 

Mr T is not sympathetic, not at all, well to me he isn't. Whatever heroic quality he may have is overshadowed by his "evilness". It is why I therefore see him more as a villain than an anti-hero.

 

Is someone finding him likeable in any way? Is it just me?

[Aleksiel]

....

 

Arrogance was never Vargo's flaw, not one time that we've seen him and I find it unreasonable to think he suddenly gained a new character trait when writing the Diagram. The lack of empathy was no longer an issue on Diagram level since he was again able to predict human behavior; he had enough brain power to compensate so to speak. 

 

You want there to be a better plan with less people dying, but I'm unsure if that's realistic when it comes to Desolation. There is no evidence T didn't consider other options. He wrote down what he thought had the best chance to save humanity. It's unfair to blame him for not being able to come up with something else.

 

T has no other ways of having other territories join him. Kharbranth is a city with hospitals and no army of any significance. In order to add a country to his, T had to spread chaos in the said country and go with his healers and food like a savior like he did in Jah Keved. I don't see overtaking a country with an army to be any better. T was in no position to propose alliance or conquer.  At any rate, I don't see anyone wanting to join Dalinar or T, so they both will have to use force.

 

 

Mr T is not sympathetic, not at all, well to me he isn't. Whatever heroic quality he may have is overshadowed by his "evilness". It is why I therefore see him more as a villain than an anti-hero.

 

Is someone finding him likeable in any way? Is it just me?

 

I find him sympathetic and not evil. He wants to ensure the survival of humanity and never discriminated in his thoughts - he isn't trying to save himself, his people or any particular group of people. Generally speaking, Zahel's advice to Kal to do what will make it easier for him to sleep at night is a selfish way of thinking. Vargo does what he thinks best for humanity regardless of the personal cost and cries himself to sleep. What T's doing is not sympathetic, but his character is to me.

[maxal]

Arrogance was never Vargo's flaw, not one time that we've seen him and I find it unreasonable to think he suddenly gained a new character trait when writing the Diagram. The lack of empathy was no longer an issue on Diagram level since he was again able to predict human behavior; he had enough brain power to compensate so to speak. 

 

You want there to be a better plan with less people dying, but I'm unsure if that's realistic when it comes to Desolation. There is no evidence T didn't consider other options. He wrote down what he thought had the best chance to save humanity. It's unfair to blame him for not being able to come up with something else.

 

T has no other ways of having other territories join him. Kharbranth is a city with hospitals and no army of any significance. In order to add a country to his, T had to spread chaos in the said country and go with his healers and food like a savior like he did in Jah Keved. I don't see overtaking a country with an army to be any better. T was in no position to propose alliance or conquer.  At any rate, I don't see anyone wanting to join Dalinar or T, so they both will have to use force.

 

 

 

I find him sympathetic and not evil. He wants to ensure the survival of humanity and never discriminated in his thoughts - he isn't trying to save himself, his people or any particular group of people. Generally speaking, Zahel's advice to Kal to do what will make it easier for him to sleep at night is a selfish way of thinking. Vargo does what he thinks best for humanity regardless of the personal cost and cries himself to sleep. What T's doing is not sympathetic, but his character is to me.

 

I call his arrogant because he devised an intelligence test people have to pass before being allowed to reproduce. I call him arrogant because he claims everyone else is below him. I believe this is a form of arrogance. It may not be a specific flaw, but it makes his character unsympathetic to me.

 

As for Jah Keved, I agree the civil war may have been the best option for Vargo to take over the country, but it certainly was not the only way to unite them all. Unity could have been worked differently. And I still do not understand why Vargo does not want to work with good Dalinar, why the only Dalinar worthy of the Diagram is blood lusted Blaksthorn?

 

For the rest, alright. I admit I re-read his last chapter in WoR this morning. He did not come out as bad as the first time around    I really tried to keep an open mind about it. He is trying, I'll give you that, but I am unable to agree with his methods. His talk with the king at the end.... How hypocrite. He launched the war just so he could be seen as a savior, just so people would want him as king. Can the end justify the mean? Big conflict here.

[Aleksiel]

I call his arrogant because he devised an intelligence test people have to pass before being allowed to reproduce. 

 

I didn't think that was arrogant. He didn't had the empathy or intelligence to see it from other peoples perspective, so he came off as arrogant, but he meant well with those laws. When he had a better intelligence-empathy balance, he banned himself from changing/making laws on smart days and this shows arrogance wasn't his drive.

 

I call him arrogant because he claims everyone else is below him. I believe this is a form of arrogance. It may not be a specific flaw, but it makes his character unsympathetic to me.

 

When did he ever claim others were below him?

 

As for Jah Keved, I agree the civil war may have been the best option for Vargo to take over the country, but it certainly was not the only way to unite them all. Unity could have been worked differently. And I still do not understand why Vargo does not want to work with good Dalinar, why the only Dalinar worthy of the Diagram is blood lusted Blaksthorn?

 

Because bloodthirsty Blackthorn won't be a hindrance, he would have just shattered Alethkar, making it easier for T to take over.  Dalinar, who aims to unite, however is an unwelcome competition. Dalinar the Bondsmith would never join forces with Diagram T. T has a plan and Dalinar is a tyrant, who does things his way, and would never go for the Diagram, but stand against it, thus he becomes T's foe.

 

For the rest, alright. I admit I re-read his last chapter in WoR this morning. He did not come out as bad as the first time around     I really tried to keep an open mind about it. He is trying, I'll give you that, but I am unable to agree with his methods. His talk with the king at the end.... How hypocrite. He launched the war just so he could be seen as a savior, just so people would want him as king. 

 

T couldn't admit anything infont of witnesses, his plan has to remain a secret in order to succeed. The only way to be king of Jah Keved was if people wanted him to be. 

 

Can the end justify the mean? Big conflict here.

 

Yes, you are right. It's the theme of the series, I think. While I am for the journey before destination philosophy, this is a very extreme case with the faith of humanity at stake. I think it's better for part of humanity to survive than for all to perish honorably. The ultimate survival of the human kind outweighs all other moral concerns. 

 

edit: fixing the quotes

Edited June 23, 2014 by Aleksiel

[kari-no-sugata]

The following occurs to me (but dont have time to check book): Taravangian is pretty desperate to have another Day of the Diagram and the more Death Rattle examples.

 

If the Diagram was thought to be flawless and complete then that wouldn't be necessary.

[maxal]

I didn't think that was arrogant. He didn't had the empathy or intelligence to see it from other peoples perspective, so he came off as arrogant, but he meant well with those laws. When he had a better intelligence-empathy balance, he banned himself from changing/making laws on smart days and this shows arrogance wasn't his drive.

 

It is horribly wrong to dare judge people's capacity to raise children based on an intelligence test. It does not matter how good his intentions were, when it comes to children, there are so many variables you can't just decide on one worth simply based on QI. Maybe it isn't arrogance, but he is over governing his people and potentially depriving himself of valuable resources.

 

 

 

When did he ever claim others were below him?

 

There is a quote! I looked for it all morning, but I just cannot find it anymore. How frustrating.

 

 

Because bloodthirsty Blackthorn won't be a hindrance, he would have just shattered Alethkar, making it easier for T to take over.  Dalinar, who aims to unite, however is an unwelcome competition. Dalinar the Bondsmith would never join forces with Diagram T. T has a plan and Dalinar is a tyrant, who does things his way, and would never go for the Diagram, but stand against it, thus he becomes T's foe.

 

And Galivar who enforced the Way of Kings on himself years before Dalinar was not? Galivar thought the Diagram was a good idea? Galivar, the supposed so great man who ruled over "united" Alethkar? Note my sarcasm here. I have huge issues with Galivar being considered an ally and good Dalinar an enemy. I agree to your logic however. In the scope of the Diagram, it does make sense.

 

 

T couldn't admit anything infont of witnesses, his plan has to remain a secret in order to succeed. The only way to be king of Jah Keved was if people wanted him to be.

 

You can't argue Mr T actions are not hypocrite! He launched a civil war and a plague only so he could send his surgeons and be seen as a savior thus making it easy for him to take control... This IS hypocrite. He is the one who brought destruction, but he takes the role of the good savior.

 

 

Yes, you are right. It's the theme of the series, I think. While I am for the journey before destination philosophy, this is a very extreme case with the faith of humanity at stake. I think it's better for part of humanity to survive than for all to perish honorably. The ultimate survival of the human kind outweighs all other moral concerns. 

 

edit: fixing the quotes

 

I think we are going to find Mr T is wrong and that the end does not justify all means. I do not think the survival of humanity can be planned in advance anyway, no matter how super brilliant the investigator is.

 

 

The following occurs to me (but dont have time to check book): Taravangian is pretty desperate to have another Day of the Diagram and the more Death Rattle examples.

 

If the Diagram was thought to be flawless and complete then that wouldn't be necessary.

 

He wants another smart day because the Diagram has started to go wrong. He thinks he can fix it with a super smart day. If not, then he is bound to make mistakes while trying to follow it. Personally, since I do not believe in the Diagram, I think it will go awry no matter if he gets another smart day or not.

[Aleksiel]

It is horribly wrong to dare judge people's capacity to raise children based on an intelligence test. It does not matter how good his intentions were, when it comes to children, there are so many variables you can't just decide on one worth simply based on QI. Maybe it isn't arrogance, but he is over governing his people and potentially depriving himself of valuable resources.

 

There is a quote! I looked for it all morning, but I just cannot find it anymore. How frustrating.

 

I agree it was a surprisingly poor mistake to consider this a good law and T realized it, which is why he banned himself from changing laws. I honestly have no recollection of Vargo saying he's better than everyone else, and since you couldn't find the quote may be you mistook someone else saying such a thing for T? It happens.

 

 

And Galivar who enforced the Way of Kings on himself years before Dalinar was not? Galivar thought the Diagram was a good idea? Galivar, the supposed so great man who ruled over "united" Alethkar? Note my sarcasm here. I have huge issues with Galivar being considered an ally and good Dalinar an enemy. I agree to your logic however. In the scope of the Diagram, it does make sense.

 

I get you're sarcastic about Gavilar. But T went to the Nightwatcher after the feast Gavilar was killed. 

 

You can't argue Mr T actions are not hypocrite! He launched a civil war and a plague only so he could send his surgeons and be seen as a savior thus making it easy for him to take control... This IS hypocrite. He is the one who brought destruction, but he takes the role of the good savior.

 

Of course it was hypocritic, but admitting what he was doing would have been sheer stupidity.

 

I think we are going to find Mr T is wrong and that the end does not justify all means. I do not think the survival of humanity can be planned in advance anyway, no matter how super brilliant the investigator is.

 

I think the Diagram is a way to save humanity, but not the path worth taking as journey-before-destination is the spirit of the novels. Vargo will be used to represent just that, the wrong means to achieve something good and how much better the Radiant way is.

 

So, from a meta-text perspective, the Diagram must indeed be a plan ensuring the survival of humanity in advance on a day of supreme brilliance. I'm also quite certain Dalinar and co will find another way. Which worries me, because I've seldom predicted correctly how Brandon's novels will go, so my confidence in the Radiants might point the opposite...

Edited June 23, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

I agree it was a surprisingly poor mistake to consider this a good law and T realized it, which is why he banned himself from changing laws. I honestly have no recollection of Vargo saying he's better than everyone else, and since you couldn't find the quote may be you mistook someone else saying such a thing for T? It happens.

 

 

I know. You could be right    I'll keep looking and if I find it, I'll post it.

 

 

Of course it was hypocritic, but admitting what he was doing would have been sheer stupidity.

 

I am not saying he should come out clear. I am merely saying he is being hypocrite in his ways of dealing with the world. The truth is bound to come out at some point and I wonder it the Diagram has predicted that accurately. In fact, I believe human nature will prove to not be so easily predicted and the Diagram will go wrong. Something will happen, I just do not know what.

 

 

I think the Diagram is a way to save humanity, but not the path worth taking as journey-before-destination is the spirit of the novels. Vargo will be used to represent just that, the wrong means to achieve something good and how much better the Radiant way is.

 

So, from a meta-text perspective, the Diagram must indeed be a plan ensuring the survival of humanity in advance on a day of supreme brilliance. I'm also quite certain Dalinar and co will find another way. Which worries me, because I've seldom predicted correctly how Brandon's novels will go, so my confidence in the Radiants might point the opposite...

 

Yeah... You might have a point there.... There is something fishy and wrong with the Radiants. The oaths... I think they are wrong, somehow. Look at Kaladin. Look at Dalinar. They get extraordinary powers, but in return, they have to obey to foolish oaths....I just hope Brandon won't pull out a Mistborn on us and oh surprise everyone dies

[Shaggai]

I know. You could be right    I'll keep looking and if I find it, I'll post it.

 

 

 

I am not saying he should come out clear. I am merely saying he is being hypocrite in his ways of dealing with the world. The truth is bound to come out at some point and I wonder it the Diagram has predicted that accurately. In fact, I believe human nature will prove to not be so easily predicted and the Diagram will go wrong. Something will happen, I just do not know what.

 

 

 

Yeah... You might have a point there.... There is something fishy and wrong with the Radiants. The oaths... I think they are wrong, somehow. Look at Kaladin. Look at Dalinar. They get extraordinary powers, but in return, they have to obey to foolish oaths....I just hope Brandon won't pull out a Mistborn on us and oh surprise everyone dies

The thing with the Radiant oaths is that they're individually imperfect, but when you have all of them together they form a powerful force for resisting Desolations. The Windrunners lead, and protect those under their care. They aren't supposed to kill for other reasons, because they exist so that the other warriors can continue to fight. The Bondsmiths bring everyone together so that they can work was one. The Dustbringers are probably the main soldiers. The Skybreakers keep order. The Lightweavers kept up morale. The Edgedancers (if I'm remembering correctly) cleaned up the little bits to prevent the whole thing from breaking down. And so on. Each one couldn't function on its own, but they can focus on their bit and trust that the others will do theirs. It keeps the world running under immense pressure.

 

Of course, now that there are only a few Radiants... Well, let's just say that they may want their brown pants. The oaths require the presence of a significant number of Radiants of various Orders to work, and Roshar doesn't have that anymore. I wonder if that will be one of the themes of the series, that there is no perfect moral system. The Radiants' specialized moralities will hamper them, perhaps even dooming them, while Taravangian will end up realizing that the Diagram was not the best way to go about all of this.

[kari-no-sugata]

The following occurs to me (but dont have time to check book): Taravangian is pretty desperate to have another Day of the Diagram and the more Death Rattle examples.

 

If the Diagram was thought to be flawless and complete then that wouldn't be necessary.

 

 

Finally gotten around to re-reading the chapter. These bits stood out:

 

That was why he'd hoped for another such day soon, a day to revamp the Diagram. That would not come, most likely. They would have to continue, trusting in the man that he had once been, trusting his vision and understanding.

 

Better that than anything else in this world. Gods and religion had failed them. Kings and highlords were selfish, petty things. If he was doing to trust one thing to believe in, it would be himself and the raw genius of a human mind unfettered.

 

 

The answers would be here. They would. Taravangian worshipped only one god now. It was the man he had been on that day.

 

To me that reads as fanaticism, with himself as high priest.

 

 

btw, there's absolutely no guarantee that Taravangian got what he asked for from the Nightwatcher. Quoting The Way of Kings, Baxil's interlude:

 

"Doesn't work that way," Av said. "It's not a game, no matter how the stories try to put it. The Nightwatcher doesn't trick you or twist your words. You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. Sometimes related, sometimes not."

 

I see Taravangian having more and more problems with the Diagram. It will diverge more. There will be more things it didn't see coming. I would not be least bit surprised if he tries to "force" events to agree with the Diagram, even if he has to do horrible things.