Baine he/him Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's why it's so important to have honor and ethics; there should be lines that you will not cross, even if "the ends justify the means" (which I think is a load of crock). Â How you act shapes who you are and how you think. Even if you're sure that the horrible atrocities you're commiting are for a good cause, eventually you will view those atrocities as okay or fine to do by themselves. Â In essence: Mr. T is not a good person, even if he has good intentions. He knows that he doing evil things, and he does them anyway.
Moogle Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Kindness is the art of offering something without any external motives. And I'd argue that's exactly what Taravangian did for the vast majority of his life. His hospitals cared for all regardless of nationality. Whereas opening hospital may be seen as a "kind" action, using them to murder innocent people just to get their death rattle is an impossibly hypocrite behavior. Mr. T had hospitals before he ever used them to extract Death Rattles. His opening and funding of them and constant visiting of patients show he was a kind-hearted man before he learned about the upcoming apocalypse. If he truly were a kind person and selfless person, than he would be able to kill for knowledge. Why not? Just because he's kind and wants to help people doesn't mean he has to drop everything and help people and so doom the world. Desperate times call for desperate measures, so we cannot judge Taravangian by what he's doing when he believes he has to do it or else literally everyone he knows will die to a screaming horde of Voidbringers. It's not a good way to determine what someone's personality is. Fortunately, we have a PoV from him so we know how he feels: he's hurt by all the suffering he causes. He's ultimately very soft-hearted. I want to reiterate: Taravangian's actions (killing people for Death Rattles) are a poor way to judge his character traits. Under normal circumstances, he appears to have been one of the most kind-hearted rulers in the entire world for generations, what with his opening of hospitals and tending to the world's greatest source of knowledge. His choice (in his mind) is to either commit atrocities, or watch the entire world die. He's looked for alternatives and found none. He was the smartest person on the planet for a day. He knows what the alternatives are, and he's determined that the Diagram is the best option. So yes, hating Taravangian is understandable. His actions are horrible, and I'm not bothering to defend them. But ultimately, when we look at his PoV, I can't comprehend how it is not obvious that Taravangian is a kind-hearted guy who mourns for all the suffering in the world. The issue is that he believes (and he's not exactly wrong) that he's the only one he can save it, and he's not willing to let the entire world die just so he can feel good about himself. I think that makes him selfless in a way Kaladin will never be. Edited June 7, 2014 by Moogle 4
Shaggai Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Alright. Allow me to address some of the stuff in this thread. Not the OP, because I totally agree with that. But some of the posts in the thread. Note: I may or may not insert paragraph breaks into overly long blocks of text, so that I can handle them better. 1. Kindness is the art of offering something without any external motives. Whereas opening hospital may be seen as a "kind" action, using them to murder innocent people just to get their death rattle is an impossibly hypocrite behavior. If he truly were a kind person and selfless person, than he would be able to kill for knowledge. Killing and torturing people is never an act of kindness, well killing someone who is agonizing towards a sure death could be seen as a kindness, but it is not what Mr T is doing. He blatantly decided he knew better than everyone else and that his way was the ONLY way. He does not shy from the horrors he is perpetuating, he thinks he has good reasons to cause such things, he thinks he is right just because he wrote a Diagram on a smart day! Never does he question himself or second guess his actions. A kind person would have, a kind and selfless person would have tried to find another way. I could add that a truly smart person would never use some scheme written in unknown conditions to sell the fate of humanity. He would strive to do better, to find a better way, to work with those sharing the same goal, if is goal indeed is the survival of the human kind.  2. Mr T is a horrible person., He may have a huge IQ, but that does not make him smart. A truly smart person is able to see beyond academics, it is able to not just rely itself on numbers as it knows life is not so easily partitioned. Really smart people have both strong IQ and EQ. Also, a smart person second guesses itself, a smart person does not go with a scheme of extreme violence based on predictions even if it appears "smart". A smart person knows everyone has failures and a smart person does not put itself upfront everyone. A smart person does not considered it should rule simply because it is smart: it knows it takes more than that.  3. I believe the Hitler comparison is very appropriate. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Nobody goes on doing mass genocide thinking they are doing wrong unless they are seriously deluded. Alright, we could argue Hitler was deluded and as far as I know, he was, but he was not alone in all this. Before he took leadership of Germany, Hitler silenced all opposition. He got elected using despicable tactics. Why? Well I guess he thought it was in his right and I guess his followers thought the same. Hitler was also convinced medical research had to be done at the expense of human life. How many sick, orphans or disabled person has he murdered besides all the Jews? It was not just the Jews that were killed or deemed "expendables". No matter what his motives were, he did pure evil and I believe Mr T is doing just the same thing. To me, he is not a sympathetic character. The fact he seems "nicer" on his dumb days is not going to erase his actions.  4. I personally do not believe in the Diagram. I believe it is a delusion. It may have predicted some things, but never, never would I warranty mass murders as a mean to save man kind. The future is always in movement and I believe it is impossible to predict. Mr T may have the IQ of a genius, but he has the EQ of a moron and I do hope someone will axe him at some point. 1. And kindness is relevant how? Taravangian's entire goal is to preserve humanity as a species. Also, Moogle's post.  2. What in Damnation is EQ? Does "EQ" stand for something along the lines of "empathy quotient"? Because if so, that's absolutely irrelevant. Much of the human brain is devoted to predicting how people will behave. This specialization of brain circuits is extremely useful in society, but also results in irrationality. Taravangian gets brain circuits that work better for other things, thereby losing out on empathy. But when he reaches Diagram level, he doesn't need the specialization to be able to predict how people will behave. So yes, he is actually truly smart.  3. Whether or not Taravangian is a good person is irrelevant.  4. Again with the EQ. Assuming I'm right about what EQ is, it's pointless, irrelevant, and as a concept is basically a load of chull dung especially when it comes to the Diagram. Second, the Diagram isn't perfect. Of course it isn't. He didn't have all the information. However, it's vastly better than you're rating it. The future is, in fact, significantly more predictable than you seem to believe.  1. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's why it's so important to have honor and ethics; there should be lines that you will not cross, even if "the ends justify the means" (which I think is a load of crock).  2. How you act shapes who you are and how you think. Even if you're sure that the horrible atrocities you're commiting are for a good cause, eventually you will view those atrocities as okay or fine to do by themselves.  3. In essence: Mr. T is not a good person, even if he has good intentions. He knows that he doing evil things, and he does them anyway. 1. Not choosing is still a choice. Not acting is still an action. Anything that happens that you could have prevented is your fault. If you stand by as someone is killed, and you could have stopped that, you are responsible for that person's death. Likewise, if you have the potential to save humanity, and you don't do it, you are responsible for the deaths of everyone. Everyone. So Taravangian is facing two choices, and only two. 1. Kill thousands in the name of the Diagram. 2. Murder all of humanity. Which one is worse?  2. Except that Mr. T's goal is "follow the Diagram". If the Diagram tells him to do something, he'll do it. If it doesn't tell him to do something (well, on a major scale. Obviously it won't specifically tell him to eat his food every day or that sort of minor thing), he won't. He's not doing things because he, personally, on that day, thinks they are good ideas. He is doing what the Diagram says. And so he won't end up committing atrocities for no reason.  3. And, again, that is irrelevant.  The Diagram is doomed anyway, of course, for one simple reason: the presence of Honor. There's no way they'll beat Odium without Investiture, and Investiture on Roshar is bound by the constraints of Honor. Therefore, the Diagram is incompatible with the tools they'll need to win. But Taravangian doesn't know that, and he's doing the best he can. We can't really blame him. Edited June 7, 2014 by Shaggai 1
king of nowhere Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 I also want to note that the main criticism on the diagram is not from a moral standpoint. if it really was the best way to save humanity, many people would accept it. desperate times call for desperate solutions. There is also an intersting parallelism to Rand and the wheel of time; Rand united the world under himself much like T is doing, restoring order from anarchy. the main difference is that instead of the diagram there were the prophecies, and much of the strife wasn't caused willingly by rand but rather happened by accident or by itself. the main criticism to the diagram is that 1) humankind is much likely to survive anyway; after all, it survived 99 desolations before. 2) there are many group of people trying to save the world and several of them look like they have a decent chance of success 3) the diagram is most likely to hamper those other attempts, and then fail cause Mr. T is not smart enough to keep it updated. or because one of those other factions will destroy T in their own attempt to help. Or because even supersmart T was not smart enough to do it properly the first time. Or because he missed some vital information. Or because something completely random and unpredictable will happen. there are just too many things that can go wrong. Â That's why I put so much stretch on fanatism. If T wasn't fanatically devoted to the diagram, he would probably realize that if the radiants are returned, several of them are flocking under dalinar, and dalinar has succesfully united alethkar (all things that were low probability scenarios, so probably supersmart T consider unlikely that all of those would happen together and didn't plan much for it), then he should probably cooperate with him, instead of trying to bring him down. Unfortunately, in his pow chapter Taravangian made clear he is absolutely devoted to the diagram. he said something about not beliving in god anymore, but having a godlike worship for his supersmart self and the work he did that day. I don't think a change of mind is likely. 1
Kurkistan he/him Posted June 8, 2014 Author Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) Oops, accidentally hit the -1 on King's post while scrolling about.  ----  In unrelated note: I must say I rather loathe these types of discussions (Warning: Steelhunt/Mistborn spoilers). Even though it seems I'm in a habit of being the one to kick the hive. They tend to forge undue acrimony, from what I've seen. Edited June 8, 2014 by Kurkistan
Moogle Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) 1) humankind is much likely to survive anyway; after all, it survived 99 desolations before. 2) there are many group of people trying to save the world and several of them look like they have a decent chance of success 3) the diagram is most likely to hamper those other attempts, and then fail cause Mr. T is not smart enough to keep it updated. or because one of those other factions will destroy T in their own attempt to help. Or because even supersmart T was not smart enough to do it properly the first time. Or because he missed some vital information. Or because something completely random and unpredictable will happen. there are just too many things that can go wrong. Â 1) This is something that probably deserves its own thread (and probably has its own thread), but I find it interesting to discuss humanity's chances of survival. Â This time around, humanity has some things that hurts its chances: The Heralds are not around, and haven't prepared humanity to fight the Voidbringers. Humanity is not united. There are very few Surgebinders, as the spren felt betrayed. Only now are they starting to come back, and they don't seem to be coming back in very large numbers (there were thousands of KR minimum, we've seen maybe 5-10). The Dawnshards are missing. The Everstorm has come, when apparently it did not ever come in previous Desolations. Parshmen are completely integrated into human society and form the economic basis of most of the world. They will transform. Honor is Splintered, and can offer very little aid besides annoyingly cryptic visions. Cultivation is apathetic, and has turned away from humanity. On the other hand: Humanity is not in the stone age, and has a lot of knowledge relative to previous Desolations, as well as metal armor/weapons (not bronze). While there's very few KR, there's a good amount of Shardblades and Plate. Modern fabrials have been researched, which allows new war tactics. (Navani showcases this at the end of WoR.) Humanity has Taravangian, who has superintelligence and could possibly/maybe already has come up with a plan to save everyone. Humanity has Jasnah. Never before has such competence been seen, to the point where the author literally has to railroad her into almost dying in a ridiculous situation in order to avoid her instantly solving the plot intended for the Mary Sue. (Jasnah's player was probably very upset at the DM when that happened in the session.) Overall, I think humanity is going to lose the fight. I think the story of Fleet implies that ultimately humanity is going to go out fighting, and is going to lose. There's a Death Rattle that miiiiight back this up ("and so the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life" or something). Still, this does probably deserve it's own thread so I'll end it here. Â 2) Which groups of people trying to save the world are you referring to? The Sons of Honor appear to be actively trying to destroy the world, the Diagrammists appear to be saving it, and the Kholins also appear to be working to save the world. Hoid may or may not be just waiting around to steal a Dawnshard while letting the world burn. The 17th Shard seems content to let the world suffer so long as Odium is contained. Nalan's failed and seems content to murder the entire Shin leadership just 'cuz. Â Overall, the only two people I see trying to save the world are Dalinar and Taravangian, and Dalinar is busy not really accomplishing that. He has to deal with internal Alethi politics (he's going to be accused of assassinating Sadeas probably), has a half-dead army, and his nation is currently rioting due to a crappy king and queen. Dalinar's allies so far consist of a grand total of four Surgebinders, including himself. Not exactly enough to stop millions of Voidbringers. Â 3) I have nothing to add to what you said here, except a vague hope that Dalinar and Taravangian will decide to work together so as to avoid more death and suffering. Edited June 8, 2014 by Moogle
kari-no-sugata Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Taravangian seems like a good example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I'm pretty sure he started out a good person. This seems to be the rough series of events: For whatever reasons, he believes humanity is about to be destroyed (though exactly how and why I don't think we know) He wants to do something about this - save as many people as possible He decides to visit the Nightwatcher to request a boon - to be given the capacity to save the world His peak intelligence improves significantly and on a particularly good day he creates the Diagram He doesn't fully understand it but he believes this to be a plan to save the world, so starts following it The plan seems to involve a series of steps that allow him to become king of the world starting from a very weak base He doesn't like the plan but decides to follow it I don't see any indication that he wants people to die or enjoys seeing them die. He doesn't seem to hold any kind of grudge against any particular group of people. He doesn't seem to be motivated by greed either. Â So, is he evil? I guess that would depend on which system of morality you follow but I think most people would consider him to be evil. Â I think the most damming example is his reaction to the end of the death rattles: he decides to press on regardless. Â I think his main problems are excessive fear of failure, lack of trust (in the general sense) and a kind of selfishness in that he's pushing "his" solution onto everyone else. Or putting it another way, he doesn't seem to accept that there's other possible solutions to the problem and is forcing the world to (unknowingly) accept his solution, at the cost of all other possible solutions. He's being dictatorial, though not in the normal sense, rather than guiding. Rather than asking for the capacity to save the world (ie implying that only he can save it) he should have asked for the capacity to help the world save itself, or something - ie to work with others to help save the world. To serve, rather than to dictate. Â Maybe some day he will have some kind of epiphany and realise where he went wrong but for the next 2-3 books I expect him to be the biggest natural (ie human) obstacle to the protagonists. 2
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 2. What in Damnation is EQ? Does "EQ" stand for something along the lines of "empathy quotient"? Because if so, that's absolutely irrelevant. Much of the human brain is devoted to predicting how people will behave. This specialization of brain circuits is extremely useful in society, but also results in irrationality. Taravangian gets brain circuits that work better for other things, thereby losing out on empathy. But when he reaches Diagram level, he doesn't need the specialization to be able to predict how people will behave. So yes, he is actually truly smart. 4. Again with the EQ. Assuming I'm right about what EQ is, it's pointless, irrelevant, and as a concept is basically a load of chull dung especially when it comes to the Diagram. Second, the Diagram isn't perfect. Of course it isn't. He didn't have all the information. However, it's vastly better than you're rating it. The future is, in fact, significantly more predictable than you seem to believe. Â EQ stands for Emotional Intelligence. It measures the ability to use emotion information to think and guide one's behavior. It is the ability to know when someone is bullshitting you or trying to betray you even if he does not explicitly say so. For example, Dalinar is poor on EQ and Adolin is very strong. Kaladin is in between, but has to work on it. It has to do with social skills, leadership and mental health. Â A serious lack of EQ in someone like Mr T turns him into a serious thread to humanity. He believes he is the smartest man around. He believes in his Diagram and he believes the end justify the means. The issue I have with Mr T is the fact he is unable to question himself. Since he is (or believe he is) the smartest man in the world, he cannot conceive he may be wrong. He uses that as a justification to perpetuate crimes against humanity. The fact he may feel some remorse does not make him a "kind-hearted" person, it makes him a sociopath, really. His EQ is so low he is unable to foresee the ethical issues in what he is doing. Most people, even out of anger, will not consider murder as an acceptable solution, no matter the issue. He does not have those kind of barriers. Â Also, it does not matter he managed to do some good in his life. It does not matter if his leadership was good for Karbranth. It does not matter he opened hospitals and worked towards the advancement of medicine. It does not matter because he uses all that to launch crimes against the humanity in service of a Diagram he fails to see the faults in. To go back to my Hitler parallel, I would add it does not matter if Hitler's rule was good, for a time, for Germany. It does not matter if true-breaded German lived well in Hitler's Germany. It does not matter because he uses his position to kill millions of innocents. It does matter if he was following what he believed was a decent plan to cure humanity if impurities. It does not matter if he thought himself super smart for doing it. Intentions do not matter and the little good one sociopath did does not matter either. Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity, no matter the context. Nothing justifies the murder of innocent and the one ordering it is by no means not "kind" nor "selfless". He is seriously deluded and that is a sign of extremely low EQ. Â I do not care how accurate the Diagram is. Maybe it is better than I give it credit for. You may be right about that, but having a plan for the future still does not justify crimes. Mr T may have looked for another solution, but the fact remains he is not smart enough to even think on one. He is not able to make the leap of faith and join a just cause. He is unable to revise his position. He is quite fix on his idea and he will back from nothing to see it go through. However, he is terribly wrong and I do see him as our main antagonist for the next books.
Moogle Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 I think his main problems are excessive fear of failure, lack of trust (in the general sense) and a kind of selfishness in that he's pushing "his" solution onto everyone else. Or putting it another way, he doesn't seem to accept that there's other possible solutions to the problem and is forcing the world to (unknowingly) accept his solution, at the cost of all other possible solutions. Â Your post was nicely put, but I do have an issue with this. Many people in this thread have commented that there's "other solutions" to saving the world, but for some reason I haven't heard many of them. Would you mind expanding on the alternatives that you feel Mr. T should have considered more before implementing the Diagram?
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Your post was nicely put, but I do have an issue with this. Many people in this thread have commented that there's "other solutions" to saving the world, but for some reason I haven't heard many of them. Would you mind expanding on the alternatives that you feel Mr. T should have considered more before implementing the Diagram? Â Supporting the Radiants. Talking to the heads of each country. Turning Dalinar into an ally. Working together. He could have tried that before going Hitler on us.
Aleksiel Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Supporting the Radiants. Talking to the heads of each country. Turning Dalinar into an ally. Working together. He could have tried that before going Hitler on us. Â He had thought about it and decided it wouldn't work, hence the 'assassinate Dalinar' plan and the whole 'Hold the secret that destroyed the Radiants, you might need to use it'. Why he decided against allying with Dalinar and backing up the Radiants is unclear for now, but I'm confident he had considered and declined this option for a reason.
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 He had thought about it and decided it wouldn't work, hence the 'assassinate Dalinar' plan and the whole 'Hold the secret that destroyed the Radiants, you might need to use it'. Why he decided against allying with Dalinar and backing up the Radiants is unclear for now, but I'm confident he had considered and declined this option for a reason. Â Whatever the reason, he has not tried enough. Anyone who thinks murdering people is a better option than trying to work with them does not deserve any sympathy. He so clouded with his Diagram, he lets his "smartness" overshadowed all his senses in a way that prevents him from choosing a more sane approach. Even he did considered other options, he still turned out selecting the one that involves mass murdering. Really. Even if the other options had less chances of succeeding (still according to this cursed Diagram), then a sane person would still have tried to make it work. Because nothing warranty mass killings. Because history teaches us nothing is as firm as it seems. Because the underdog do win, at times. And more importantly because no one is smart enough to predict everything.Truly smart people have one thing in common: they all agree on how ignorant they really are since the more you learn on one thing, the more you realize how little you know about anything else. A smart person would not trust in the inevitability of the Diagram. It would uses the information it contains, to make that other way work. And it would share the information with other people. It would work in a team, not as a stand-alone because "everyone is too dumb". How condescending.
Aleksiel Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) Whatever the reason, he has not tried enough. Anyone who thinks murdering people is a better option than trying to work with them does not deserve any sympathy. He so clouded with his Diagram, he lets his "smartness" overshadowed all his senses in a way that prevents him from choosing a more sane approach. Even he did considered other options, he still turned out selecting the one that involves mass murdering. Really. Even if the other options had less chances of succeeding (still according to this cursed Diagram), then a sane person would still have tried to make it work. Because nothing warranty mass killings. Because history teaches us nothing is as firm as it seems. Because the underdog do win, at times. And more importantly because no one is smart enough to predict everything.Truly smart people have one thing in common: they all agree on how ignorant they really are since the more you learn on one thing, the more you realize how little you know about anything else. A smart person would not trust in the inevitability of the Diagram. It would uses the information it contains, to make that other way work. And it would share the information with other people. It would work in a team, not as a stand-alone because "everyone is too dumb". How condescending.  I'm not going to argue for or against the Diagram. My point is that T decided there were no other viable options. He apparently believes allying with Dalinar and the new Radiants will doom Roshar. For some unknown reason he is convinced they won't be able to save humanity.  I get your feelings, however you aren't really providing another solution. Edited June 8, 2014 by Aleksiel
Shaggai Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 I also want to note that the main criticism on the diagram is not from a moral standpoint. if it really was the best way to save humanity, many people would accept it. desperate times call for desperate solutions. Both of the people I was responding to said that the ends didn't justify the means, so I don't think that lack of effectiveness is the main objection. It's my main objection to the Diagram, certainly.  1. EQ stands for Emotional Intelligence. It measures the ability to use emotion information to think and guide one's behavior. It is the ability to know when someone is bullshitting you or trying to betray you even if he does not explicitly say so. For example, Dalinar is poor on EQ and Adolin is very strong. Kaladin is in between, but has to work on it. It has to do with social skills, leadership and mental health.  2. A serious lack of EQ in someone like Mr T turns him into a serious thread to humanity. He believes he is the smartest man around. He believes in his Diagram and he believes the end justify the means. The issue I have with Mr T is the fact he is unable to question himself. Since he is (or believe he is) the smartest man in the world, he cannot conceive he may be wrong. He uses that as a justification to perpetuate crimes against humanity. The fact he may feel some remorse does not make him a "kind-hearted" person, it makes him a sociopath, really. His EQ is so low he is unable to foresee the ethical issues in what he is doing. Most people, even out of anger, will not consider murder as an acceptable solution, no matter the issue. He does not have those kind of barriers.  3. Also, it does not matter he managed to do some good in his life. It does not matter if his leadership was good for Karbranth. It does not matter he opened hospitals and worked towards the advancement of medicine. It does not matter because he uses all that to launch crimes against the humanity in service of a Diagram he fails to see the faults in. To go back to my Hitler parallel, I would add it does not matter if Hitler's rule was good, for a time, for Germany. It does not matter if true-breaded German lived well in Hitler's Germany. It does not matter because he uses his position to kill millions of innocents. 4. It does matter if he was following what he believed was a decent plan to cure humanity if impurities. It does not matter if he thought himself super smart for doing it. Intentions do not matter and the little good one sociopath did does not matter either. Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity, no matter the context. Nothing justifies the murder of innocent and the one ordering it is by no means not "kind" nor "selfless". He is seriously deluded and that is a sign of extremely low EQ.  5. I do not care how accurate the Diagram is. Maybe it is better than I give it credit for. You may be right about that, but having a plan for the future still does not justify crimes. Mr T may have looked for another solution, but the fact remains he is not smart enough to even think on one. He is not able to make the leap of faith and join a just cause. He is unable to revise his position. He is quite fix on his idea and he will back from nothing to see it go through. However, he is terribly wrong and I do see him as our main antagonist for the next books. 1. How does Q stand for Intelligence? Anyway, from what you described, that's basically the ability to predict how people will react. I already explained why that's irrelevant in the case of the Diagram.  2. Taravangian has two choices, murdering lots of people for the Diagram and murdering literally everyone on Roshar. He's trying to save as many lives as possible. Also, you're misusing the word sociopath.  3. Certainly. I doubt that the good things he did outweighed the bad things he's doing for the Diagram.  4. Nothing justifies the murder of innocents, certainly. That's why Mr. T has to follow the Diagram. If he doesn't, he's choosing to murder everyone on Roshar. The people he kills in the name of the Diagram would have died anyway. There was no saving them. But the Diagram represents his only chance to save everyone else. If he chooses not to, he will be guilty of all of their deaths. And that's not justified. Anyway, EQ is irrelevant.  5. The Diagram is the only way Taravangian knows of to save humanity. How would he "make a leap of faith and join a just cause" when he doesn't even know that another group attempting to save humanity exists?
kaellok he/him Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 He had thought about it and decided it wouldn't work, hence the 'assassinate Dalinar' plan and the whole 'Hold the secret that destroyed the Radiants, you might need to use it'. Why he decided against allying with Dalinar and backing up the Radiants is unclear for now, but I'm confident he had considered and declined this option for a reason. The reason is, in my mind, one of hubris. The more intelligent he is, the more egotistical he is as well. See the point where he thought about passing a law where those of below average intelligence must commit suicide; he knew there would be resistance, but assumed that he would be capable of being brilliant enough to see the benefits of it, and accepting it anyway.  The Diagram is a plan that puts him in charge of saving the world, because he doesn't believe that anyone else can. Not that no one else will try. He deliberately uses methods that offer only a potential of aid that will also directly cause these other forces to oppose him. He plunges nations into violent, brutal civil wars to achieve his plan. Why? All so that he is the one they turn to, because obviously no one else can save the world. No one else is as smart, intelligent, or genius as he is.  The fact that so many people follow him, and his Diagram, so slavishly are a proof of how intelligent he was--that day. Maybe, if we had that Mr T every day, then he actually would be able to save the world. At hideous cost, sure, but much less than losing. We don't have him, though. All we have is a less-intelligent, but still egotistical, version.  On an unrelated, minor quibbling point: It doesn't matter what you ask of the Nightwatcher, she gives you what she feels like giving you. Based on the quote from the Diagram itself, I believe that Mr T is using his gift to work towards saving humanity, so that probably doesn't matter--but we shouldn't just assume that he actually could save humanity with the Diagram just because the Nightwatcher made him really smart for a day.
Aleksiel Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) The reason is, in my mind, one of hubris. The more intelligent he is, the more egotistical he is as well. See the point where he thought about passing a law where those of below average intelligence must commit suicide; he knew there would be resistance, but assumed that he would be capable of being brilliant enough to see the benefits of it, and accepting it anyway.  The Diagram is a plan that puts him in charge of saving the world, because he doesn't believe that anyone else can. Not that no one else will try. He deliberately uses methods that offer only a potential of aid that will also directly cause these other forces to oppose him. He plunges nations into violent, brutal civil wars to achieve his plan. Why? All so that he is the one they turn to, because obviously no one else can save the world. No one else is as smart, intelligent, or genius as he is.  The fact that so many people follow him, and his Diagram, so slavishly are a proof of how intelligent he was--that day. Maybe, if we had that Mr T every day, then he actually would be able to save the world. At hideous cost, sure, but much less than losing. We don't have him, though. All we have is a less-intelligent, but still egotistical, version.  On an unrelated, minor quibbling point: It doesn't matter what you ask of the Nightwatcher, she gives you what she feels like giving you. Based on the quote from the Diagram itself, I believe that Mr T is using his gift to work towards saving humanity, so that probably doesn't matter--but we shouldn't just assume that he actually could save humanity with the Diagram just because the Nightwatcher made him really smart for a day.  On the day T created the Diagram, he was almost unimaginably intelligent. He was beyond any egocentric plans then. Note Vargo was fully aware of the possibility of Szeth killing him (and likely other ways of dying), so he intended the DIagram to be fully accessible to those he trusted and for Andro to continue the course towards humanity's survival. This is not the action of an egoistic person, who wishes to rule the world. Edited June 8, 2014 by Aleksiel
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Both of the people I was responding to said that the ends didn't justify the means, so I don't think that lack of effectiveness is the main objection. It's my main objection to the Diagram, certainly.  1. How does Q stand for Intelligence? Anyway, from what you described, that's basically the ability to predict how people will react. I already explained why that's irrelevant in the case of the Diagram.  2. Taravangian has two choices, murdering lots of people for the Diagram and murdering literally everyone on Roshar. He's trying to save as many lives as possible. Also, you're misusing the word sociopath.  3. Certainly. I doubt that the good things he did outweighed the bad things he's doing for the Diagram.  4. Nothing justifies the murder of innocents, certainly. That's why Mr. T has to follow the Diagram. If he doesn't, he's choosing to murder everyone on Roshar. The people he kills in the name of the Diagram would have died anyway. There was no saving them. But the Diagram represents his only chance to save everyone else. If he chooses not to, he will be guilty of all of their deaths. And that's not justified. Anyway, EQ is irrelevant.  5. The Diagram is the only way Taravangian knows of to save humanity. How would he "make a leap of faith and join a just cause" when he doesn't even know that another group attempting to save humanity exists?  Q stands for "quotient". EQ is a chart that rates the emotional quotient (it is mostly referred as emotional intelligence, hence my previous post) similarly to IQ which rates the intelligence quotient. I believe it is relevant because the ability to decode other persons emotions and to act upon it makes the difference between sane individual and a brilliant sociopath who sees rationality in his justification for killing. Now I am not saying Mr T enjoys doing what he does, so in that regard, word "sociopath" may not apply. I believe that, by blindly following the Diagram, Mr T shuts down every mechanism the human brain may have to prevent us from becoming mass murderers. Most people just won't go with it because they won,t believe it, they will choose the seek for another option, because it is not sure mankind will all die. The fact he coldly makes the rational choice to sacrifice thousands of people in order to save a few is a sign of mental instability. He cannot be sure at 100%. He is also incredibly insensitive to other people misery. He believes killing for death rattle is justified. So yes, EQ is relevant as if he had any, he wouldn't be able to go for it.  Mr T believes he has two choices. He cannot be sure. Nobody can ever be sure about anything. If he truly was smart, he'd knew his precious Diagram may have an error margin. He would have seek another way. A third way. By leap of faith, I mean he should have gone for another option even if he believes it is doomed because it is the right thing. The right thing will never be mass murdering even is a Diagram created on a super smart day says so. As I said, he should use this information and work with the other people. He knows Dalinar wants to save the world as well. He knows about Jasnah. He knows about Kal. Why the heck does he not try to work with them? Why does he not give it a chance?   The Diagram is a plan that puts him in charge of saving the world, because he doesn't believe that anyone else can. Not that no one else will try. He deliberately uses methods that offer only a potential of aid that will also directly cause these other forces to oppose him. He plunges nations into violent, brutal civil wars to achieve his plan. Why? All so that he is the one they turn to, because obviously no one else can save the world. No one else is as smart, intelligent, or genius as he is.  I agree with you here. I applaud.
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 I'm not going to argue for or against the Diagram. My point is that T decided there were no other viable options. He apparently believes allying with Dalinar and the new Radiants will doom Roshar. For some unknown reason he is convinced they won't be able to save humanity.  I get your feelings, however you aren't really providing another solution.  Yes I am: work with the Kohlins. Work with the Radiants. That is my option.
Aleksiel Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Yes I am: work with the Kohlins. Work with the Radiants. That is my option. Â T concluded Dalinar and the new Radiants won't save the world. This is off the table, no Vargo-Radiants tandem, because it's a lost cause. It isn't an option any more than Kal buying Syl a hat after she died to bring her back.Â
Shaggai Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) 1. Q stands for "quotient". EQ is a chart that rates the emotional quotient (it is mostly referred as emotional intelligence, hence my previous post) similarly to IQ which rates the intelligence quotient. I believe it is relevant because the ability to decode other persons emotions and to act upon it makes the difference between sane individual and a brilliant sociopath who sees rationality in his justification for killing. Now I am not saying Mr T enjoys doing what he does, so in that regard, word "sociopath" may not apply. I believe that, by blindly following the Diagram, Mr T shuts down every mechanism the human brain may have to prevent us from becoming mass murderers. Most people just won't go with it because they won,t believe it, they will choose the seek for another option, because it is not sure mankind will all die. The fact he coldly makes the rational choice to sacrifice thousands of people in order to save a few is a sign of mental instability. He cannot be sure at 100%. He is also incredibly insensitive to other people misery. He believes killing for death rattle is justified. So yes, EQ is relevant as if he had any, he wouldn't be able to go for it.  2. Mr T believes he has two choices. He cannot be sure. Nobody can ever be sure about anything. If he truly was smart, he'd knew his precious Diagram may have an error margin. He would have seek another way. A third way. By leap of faith, I mean he should have gone for another option even if he believes it is doomed because it is the right thing. The right thing will never be mass murdering even is a Diagram created on a super smart day says so. As I said, he should use this information and work with the other people. He knows Dalinar wants to save the world as well. He knows about Jasnah. He knows about Kal. Why the heck does he not try to work with them? Why does he not give it a chance? 1. But Taravangian at Diagram-level does, in fact, have the ability to predict people. He's reached the point where he doesn't need specialized neural structures to predict people.  2. To do anything less than the absolute best that you can do to save people is to be responsible for their deaths. Taravangian has two choices: follow the Diagram or don't follow the Diagram. He has other choices if he chooses not to follow it, but as regards the Diagram he has only two choices. It's impossible for him to have more The Diagram is the best thing he has. If he did anything else, that would indicate a willingness to kill everyone on Roshar in order to preserve his own peace of mind, or in order to preserve his honor. If he was willing to do that, if he rated his honor or his peace of mind above the lives of all humanity, he would, in fact, be evil. Honorable, but evil in the only way that counts. Edited June 8, 2014 by Shaggai
kaellok he/him Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 On the day T created the Diagram, he was almost unimaginably intelligent. He was beyond any egocentric plans then. Note Vargo was fully aware of the possibility of Szeth killing him (and likely other ways of dying), so he intended the DIagram to be fully accessible to those he trusted and for Andro to continue the course towards humanity's survival. This is not the action of an egoistic person, who wishes to rule the world. His egocentrism seems to be directly tied to his intelligence; the more intelligent, the greater the ego. We have seen this in-text, but we have seen nothing in-text (that I am aware of) to indicate that at a certain intelligence level his egocentrism just flips off. His ability to predict, at the macro level, how people will act and react is clearly seen and portrayed, so the ego for that day was justified. If he had remained at that level of intelligence, then he likely would have been able to use the Diagram to save humanity. But he didn't. And he refuses to see that there are any other viable alternatives. He is continuing on with a plan of action that is already off-course, with no reasonable way to make corrections.  Diagram-creating Mr T didn't even look for other alternative solutions, because he felt he was best suited (because, again, ego/hubris). Sure, he created plans to deal with the others--but that is not the same thing, even a little bit, as "considering working with them, but deciding that they can't succeed" as you are suggesting.
Aleksiel Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 His egocentrism seems to be directly tied to his intelligence; the more intelligent, the greater the ego. We have seen this in-text, but we have seen nothing in-text (that I am aware of) to indicate that at a certain intelligence level his egocentrism just flips off. His ability to predict, at the macro level, how people will act and react is clearly seen and portrayed, so the ego for that day was justified. If he had remained at that level of intelligence, then he likely would have been able to use the Diagram to save humanity. But he didn't. And he refuses to see that there are any other viable alternatives. He is continuing on with a plan of action that is already off-course, with no reasonable way to make corrections.  Diagram-creating Mr T didn't even look for other alternative solutions, because he felt he was best suited (because, again, ego/hubris). Sure, he created plans to deal with the others--but that is not the same thing, even a little bit, as "considering working with them, but deciding that they can't succeed" as you are suggesting.  Any textual evidence to back up your idea of Diagram T refusing to consider other options? He created a course of action that had the best chance to save humanity with the given information. Current average T was wondering how to deal with the Diagrma going off course, but for now the only thing Diagram T hadn't predicted correctly was the number of rioters in Jah Keved. He had even predicted Kaladin among the bridgemen. He hadn't included self-preservation mechanisms in the Diagram to avoid being killed by Szeth or dying in another way, so his own survival wasn't a driving force behind the Diagram.
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 1. But Taravangian at Diagram-level does, in fact, have the ability to predict people. He's reached the point where he doesn't need specialized neural structures to predict people.  2. To do anything less than the absolute best that you can do to save people is to be responsible for their deaths. Taravangian has two choices: follow the Diagram or don't follow the Diagram. He has other choices if he chooses not to follow it, but as regards the Diagram he has only two choices. It's impossible for him to have more The Diagram is the best thing he has. If he did anything else, that would indicate a willingness to kill everyone on Roshar in order to preserve his own peace of mind, or in order to preserve his honor. If he was willing to do that, if he rated his honor or his peace of mind above the lives of all humanity, he would, in fact, be evil. Honorable, but evil in the only way that counts.  But he cannot conceive the Diagram may be wrong! He has another option: he does not have to follow the Diagram. He can use the information within it and work with other people, together. He doesn't because he does not believe it will work. However, his willingness to go forward with a plan involving plagues, civil war and murders indicates a less than honorable person. It is not sure everyone on Roshar will die if he does not follow his Diagram! He thinks it will happen this way because he is to egocentric to realize that nobody is smart enough to predict the future with exactitude. The fact he never questions the Diagram, he never second guesses himself indicates how condescending he truly is.   His egocentrism seems to be directly tied to his intelligence; the more intelligent, the greater the ego. We have seen this in-text, but we have seen nothing in-text (that I am aware of) to indicate that at a certain intelligence level his egocentrism just flips off. His ability to predict, at the macro level, how people will act and react is clearly seen and portrayed, so the ego for that day was justified. If he had remained at that level of intelligence, then he likely would have been able to use the Diagram to save humanity. But he didn't. And he refuses to see that there are any other viable alternatives. He is continuing on with a plan of action that is already off-course, with no reasonable way to make corrections.  Diagram-creating Mr T didn't even look for other alternative solutions, because he felt he was best suited (because, again, ego/hubris). Sure, he created plans to deal with the others--but that is not the same thing, even a little bit, as "considering working with them, but deciding that they can't succeed" as you are suggesting.  Kaellok, your post is great. I give you an upvote.
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Any textual evidence to back up your idea of Diagram T refusing to consider other options? He created a course of action that had the best chance to save humanity with the given information. Current average T was wondering how to deal with the Diagrma going off course, but for now the only thing Diagram T hadn't predicted correctly was the number of rioters in Jah Keved. He had even predicted Kaladin among the bridgemen. He hadn't included self-preservation mechanisms in the Diagram to avoid being killed by Szeth or dying in another way, so his own survival wasn't a driving force behind the Diagram. Â I am not saying he works towards his own survival nor that he enjoys being the one in charge. I question his inability to seek other solutions nor to just consider the Diagram may not be the solution. I don't however have textual evidences. It's just that, for me, if he goes forward with such a plan than it is obvious he has not considered any other option. A sane person would have chosen any other option than genocide! Even if a Diagram tells them otherwise, it remains, after all, predictions. Sure it is accurate so far, sure he made provision for it going wrong, but in the end, he chooses to become Hitler. Diagram tells him how things will happen if he does as it says: it does not predict what will happen if he chooses another way.
Shaggai Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 But he cannot conceive the Diagram may be wrong! He has another option: he does not have to follow the Diagram. He can use the information within it and work with other people, together. He doesn't because he does not believe it will work. However, his willingness to go forward with a plan involving plagues, civil war and murders indicates a less than honorable person. It is not sure everyone on Roshar will die if he does not follow his Diagram! He thinks it will happen this way because he is to egocentric to realize that nobody is smart enough to predict the future with exactitude. The fact he never questions the Diagram, he never second guesses himself indicates how condescending he truly is. He has, like I said, two choices. Work with it, and not work with it. Diagram-T calculated that the Diagram was the method of saving humanity that had the highest probability of succeeding. Current-T isn't smart enough to redo the Diagram. If he cares about saving people, the only thing he can do is to follow it. It might not succeed. If he doesn't follow it, there's a chance of humanity surviving anyway. But it's a lower chance. He has to make the chance as high as possible.
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